Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #2

[IzzyBlanche]

Three More Thoughts

1. I apologize for my html quoting fail. Thank you, Salem, for repairing my damage.

2. I fail to see what relevance the behavior of Sharon Rocha and Beth Twitty have to Tiffany Hartley's, as neither of them were direct witnesses to the crimes committed against their loved ones nor potential victims themselves. Apples and oranges, IMO.

3. Thank you, Kimberly, for respectfully enlightening me about what was said about Somer's mom's tears, and the other things said about her. I stand corrected.

Once again for the record, at this point I don't believe Tiffany is guilty of anything but not telling the truth. I think there is much more to this story than we know, but as to what that "more" is, I have no idea.

ETA: PS to Fran's PS: I cannot imagine being widowed once, much less twice. We may disagree on this case, but I send kudos to you for your strength in enduring and surviving such tragedies.

 

[Advocate4]

Ref the jet-ski and the possibility that it was Zetitas involved ... there's no particular reason to think they *didn't/don't* know how to use a jet-ski, how the keys work (and where they attach to on a life vest, etc.). If they live near waterways, or even if they don't, there are many places that jet-skis can be rented, and no reason these kids haven't rented them, have family members who have them, and so on.

This could all have been about the jet-skis, really. They saw, they wanted -- in their line of business, I would imagine jet-skis would come in very handy. The shooting could have been a way to try to make David and Tiffany stop so they could be robbed of the jet-skis, when they didn't respond to being "waved at" and approach. David may have been shot by accident in that regard, and maybe Tiffany was spared when they realized she was a woman and they had just (accidentally) killed her husband. Yes, the gangs are ruthless, but they don't always kill everyone they see, other pirates on the lake didn't kill anyone, which makes me think it was robbery intended but killing David was not intended.

They'd still take the one jet-ski they got, assuming they could get the key off David's body. If they removed his life vest, how long would the body have floated really?

Then chasing her and continuing to shoot to try to make her stop again, but not wanting actually to hit her. Why would they worry about her being able to identify them? Were any of the previous pirates identified? Certainly all Mexicans don't look alike, but unless there was some outstanding individual feature it would not be easy to provide a detailed description even if Tiffany had done her best to scrutinize each face.

What could she say: "Brown skin, black hair, a couple had shaved heads ..." Well, just walk down any border town street, folks, and you'll see quite a few perfectly nice young fellas who match those descriptions just as well as pirates or Zetitas do.

 

[Waddles]

Interesting reading

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/29/AR2010052903707.html

...One group of pirates was savvy enough to demand the memory chip from an angler's camera, lest they be identified. Another fisherman told authorities that armed men came roaring toward him. "I saw 'em, and I saw they were machine guns. They were that close, they were 15 yards away from me," San Antonio bass chaser Richard Drake told a local television station. "I was scared."

...

Olga Juliana Elizondo, the mayor of Nueva Guerrero, Mexico, said ranchers are harassed on their land, motorboats have disappeared, vehicles have been stolen and tourists have fled. "We hope this ends soon," she said.

Bendele ventured up the Rio Salado cove on the Mexican side, where two of the acts of piracy occurred. Around the bend, the steeple of the church in Old Guerrero is now mostly underwater. The shoreline is lonely mesquite brush, dotted by rough fish camps used by Mexicans who string gill nets along their side of the lake, hauling up tilapia, carp and bass.
...
Bendele cut off his engine, and the boat rocked in the cove. "You could see how it would be easy to get jumped in here," he said. "Notice you don't see any Americans."
...
"But, man, they are so good at counter-surveillance," Gonzalez said, describing the lake as kind of a Wild West on the water. "They watch us, they watch our boats, our cars, our homes. The smugglers, they know every move we make."

 

[Waddles]

I have wondered about all sorts of possibilities to explain this "more to the story" thing, like maybe whether the whole thing was true but their reasons for being there were not innocent so she wants to hide that part of the story.

Now I'm thinking maybe she is not really lying but rather embellished parts of her story for some reason, like maybe out of guilt for abandoning him. I'm just so convinced something is missing, she is clearly distraught in the videos but like others on here I really get a strong vibe something is amiss in her manner. MOO

 

[Tuffy]

Ref the jet-ski and the possibility that it was Zetitas involved ... there's no particular reason to think they *didn't/don't* know how to use a jet-ski, how the keys work (and where they attach to on a life vest, etc.). If they live near waterways, or even if they don't, there are many places that jet-skis can be rented, and no reason these kids haven't rented them, have family members who have them, and so on.

This could all have been about the jet-skis, really. They saw, they wanted -- in their line of business, I would imagine jet-skis would come in very handy. The shooting could have been a way to try to make David and Tiffany stop so they could be robbed of the jet-skis, when they didn't respond to being "waved at" and approach. David may have been shot by accident in that regard, and maybe Tiffany was spared when they realized she was a woman and they had just (accidentally) killed her husband. Yes, the gangs are ruthless, but they don't always kill everyone they see, other pirates on the lake didn't kill anyone, which makes me think it was robbery intended but killing David was not intended.

They'd still take the one jet-ski they got, assuming they could get the key off David's body. If they removed his life vest, how long would the body have floated really?

Then chasing her and continuing to shoot to try to make her stop again, but not wanting actually to hit her. Why would they worry about her being able to identify them? Were any of the previous pirates identified? Certainly all Mexicans don't look alike, but unless there was some outstanding individual feature it would not be easy to provide a detailed description even if Tiffany had done her best to scrutinize each face.

What could she say: "Brown skin, black hair, a couple had shaved heads ..." Well, just walk down any border town street, folks, and you'll see quite a few perfectly nice young fellas who match those descriptions just as well as pirates or Zetitas do.

BBM

Advocate, I think you're really making an assumption on how the "attackers" would have looked. Tiffany hasn't given any description of them at all, let alone black hair and brown skin. That is kind of stereotyping the people who live in border towns to say that they all look alike, therefore a description wouldn't be helpful. Maybe, I'm misunderstanding you, that's not what you're saying right?

 

[Tuffy]

I have wondered about all sorts of possibilities to explain this "more to the story" thing, like maybe whether the whole thing was true but their reasons for being there were not innocent so she wants to hide that part of the story.

Now I'm thinking maybe she is not really lying but rather embellished parts of her story for some reason, like maybe out of guilt for abandoning him. I'm just so convinced something is missing, she is clearly distraught in the videos but like others on here I really get a strong vibe something is amiss in her manner. MOO

Waddles, to me she just doesn't strike me as very distraught. She just seems really cool and in control in every appearance she has made. Perhaps she is always that way, and nothing rattles her, even her hubby getting gunned down right in front of her.

 

[Tuffy]

The tears/no tears thing makes no sense to me. I can not judge anybody on that and I'll tell you why.

Many people who go through something tragic don't cry when interviewed. This makes everyone point the finger at them.

I'm not sure if anyone in here followed Somer's case (was a year ago this past Tues.), but her mother was targeted by so many people. They all said she cried no tears. She is guilty.
Well, guess what, she was not guilty. A neighbor killed her child. She was devistated. I don't know why she didn't have as many tears as people "wanted" her to have. Maybe medication, maybe shock. I just don't know.

But, I will NEVER use that as an example of guilt. I watched for months here and elsewhere as DT was bashed and blamed for the murder of her daughter.

It sickens me to be quite honest.

We don't know what happened on that lake that day. But, I can not sit here and call her a liar. Nobody here KNOWS she is lying. She is a victim until LE states otherwise.

JMO

Hi Kimberly,

Ya know, it's not just the lack of tears or emotion that makes me doubt Tiffany. It's that combined with all the other red flags for me. The parts of her story that change. The story in its entirety just doesn't sit well with me. Her demeanor in general is just off to me. I'm not going to compare her to some of these other women in some of the cases mentioned in this thread. It's Tiffany's behavior standing on its own that I am looking at.

My instinct just tell me she is being deceptive. Until there is something conclusive to back her story up, I just think she's lying.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Waddles, to me she just doesn't strike me as very distraught. She just seems really cool and in control in every appearance she has made. Perhaps she is always that way, and nothing rattles her, even her hubby getting gunned down right in front of her.

Or maybe she's on medication.
I've seen someone go from a basket case after a tragedy to a calm rational person. All because they were prescribed a little something to help them cope.

JMO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Well, guilty until proven innocent?
Ok.

I'm more of the mindset she's a victim until LE says she isn't. Or that she is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Question; apologies if this has already been answered but what is it that people think she actually did? I have heard a lot of people (Pat Brown, Dr Lillian Glass etc) say they think she's lying, so then what actually is she being suspected of?

Did she shoot him herself?
Kill him on the island, hide the jet ski and drive back to shore?
Set him up?
Why?

I just think if she's going to be accused of something there should be an explanation behind it, so far I've heard very little.

 

[Tuffy]

Question; apologies if this has already been answered but what is it that people think she actually did? I have heard a lot of people (Pat Brown, Dr Lillian Glass etc) say they think she's lying, so then what actually is she being suspected of?

Did she shoot him herself?
Kill him on the island, hide the jet ski and drive back to shore?
Set him up?
Why?

I just think if she's going to be accused of something there should be an explanation behind it, so far I've heard very little.

If I had to guess what happened, I would say she killed him herself. I just think she doesn't seem too sad that he's gone, and she seems too eager to "move on." My opinion, is that the insurance scam theory doesn't make as much sense to me. I think if they were faking his death, she would be a lot more low key right now.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

How though? Shot? Would they have tested her hands for gun residue? Any motive? Affairs, past bad acts on her part?

 

[kemo]

I'm open to the possibility that she killed him but it is equally likely she is telling the truth. If there was a betting line on this however, my money would be on "he's still alive and they're both pulling a scam".

I'm generally skeptical of drawing to many conclusions from a "victim's" demeanor after the crime; particularly if I have no idea about their "baseline" behavior. Still, in this case, in that first video taped interview, she just doesn’t display the "stress" I would expect from someone who has either just seen her husband murdered OR just murdered her husband.

For a woman her size to dispose of the body of a man David's size wouldn't be easy except to sink it, and even then, bodies tend to float eventually unless a very good job is done to weigh them down. Would Tiffany have been able to do this by herself in open water with only the materials she could "sneak" aboard a jet-ski? And then there is the jet-ski. Does anyone know how easy it is to "scuttle" a jet-ski? Aren't they buoyant?

Now she could have had help and LE should be beating the bushes for any indications of a "boyfriend". Since there is proof that she was alone with David and the two jet-skis about three hours before the alleged shooting (the Texas traffic stop), there is a relatively short window for any "staging" to take place.

My WAG (wild *advertiser censored* guess) is that he headed to the Mexican shore where he would be able to conceal the jet-ski and lay low (remember, they lived down there for three years) while she went back to the US side to tell her story.

A friend of a friend was murdered by another US citizen in Mexico and US LE (the FBI I believe) was instrumental in making the case. The perp was given the choice between pleading guilty in the US or taking his chances with Mexican justice (with the assurance that he would be prosecuted in the US if he was ever released). Apparently, it is murder in the US if any of the "planning" took place there and double jeopardy doesn't apply across international borders. (The guy is currently doing 20 to life in PA). The just of this is that Tiffany (and David, if he is really alive) is very much subject to American law and law enforcement. She (they) can't rely on an ineffectual Mexican legal system.

 

[Waddles]

Something about how it was said he didn't often speak to his mother yet told her exactly where they were going that day, the being stopped conveniently over the plates issue, left his wedding ring at home, something about how we're not hearing much from friends and there are no messages on his FB page etc. something about how they were moving and his last job, something about their lifestyle, something tells me they were involved in something (drugs?), and that she is hiding something and that he either died in a fairly similar way to described and she feels guilt for abandoning him or he's still alive and they concocted whole thing. But if she did all this herself on her own and planned it, knowing of the dangers of the area and that she would get away with it and would be believed, and that she got rid of him all by herself, it just seems way too incredible for me to believe. Wow, I do hope we find out what really happened one day!

 

[Advocate4]

BBM

Advocate, I think you're really making an assumption on how the "attackers" would have looked. Tiffany hasn't given any description of them at all, let alone black hair and brown skin. That is kind of stereotyping the people who live in border towns to say that they all look alike, therefore a description wouldn't be helpful. Maybe, I'm misunderstanding you, that's not what you're saying right?

I specifically said that Mexicans don't all look alike, and I'm not attempting to stereotype. It's simply a fact that -- in general -- most Mexican people have brown skin and black or dark hair. If her term "pirates" was meant to refer to "pirates from Mexico", then chances are decent they were Mexican and likely had brown skin and dark hair. If one of them had blue eyes, that might have stood out to her if she was able to actually look at their faces. If one of them had a very noticeable scar or tattoo, she might have been able to register that, but lacking something that caught her attention in particular, it would probably be hard for her to give any descriptions that were not generalities. That's all I mean.

For the record, my first husband was Guatemalan with brown skin and black hair. It would have been difficult for me to describe him as different from his friends and cousins other than to say that his face was a little rounder and he wore his hair shorter. I could have provided a good drawing of his face, but of course I saw it a lot ...

 

[LaLaw2000]

Well, guilty until proven innocent?
Ok.

I'm more of the mindset she's a victim until LE says she isn't. Or that she is innocent until proven guilty.

I am with you on that, Kimberlyd125.

Now IF Tiffany is ever arrested for killing David, I will be the first to say that I am really shocked. I feel she is a victim and that the cartel murdered David.

Just about all I do anymore is just check on the articles because I have nothing to post except that I believe her and support her.

GB Tiffany, Davids' family, and everyone who loved him.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I am with you on that, Kimberlyd125.

Now IF Tiffany is ever arrested for killing David, I will be the first to say that I am really shocked. I feel she is a victim and that the cartel murdered David.

Just about all I do anymore is just check on the articles because I have nothing to post except that I believe her and support her.

GB Tiffany, Davids' family, and everyone who loved him.

ITA
I wish there would be some advancement in the case.
All I'm interested in is the truth. I hope one day we find out what that is.

I also believe TH.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I believe she's innocent too, there's no reasonable explanation for what she is supposed to be lying about from what I can see. Most of the strongest doubters in the media don't even attempt to put one forward, this bothers me that they would do that.

 

[hollyblue]

I think most people in the area believe it was a drug deal gone bad, after reading many comments on the videos and articles. Myself, mainly it's the illogical of her "story" along with the so soon memorial, and the biggy...considered, maybe, and no voluntary LDT. If she had nothing to hide, and since she feels everyone is behind her and believes her .....what's the problem? Has she done everything possible in helping find her husband? No, not everything.

Until I hear her cleared by anyone on the US side.. other than the sheriff that did no investigating to speak of, then I still tend to think there is just more to what actually happened and remain skeptical. Him saying that other info he has gathered that would add more credibilty to her story...but he can't talk about... says more about the situation he's in than clearing her.

Maybe it's just me, but I certainly felt a little strange upon hearing that the Border Control conveniently saw them at Subway...don't know why...but it has always bother me.

I read an article or blog a little while ago, of which I can't find, but will continue to search, as it was stating that the dock they chose to go to and launch the jet skis was further north up the coast of the lake than they needed to go. That there was a dock available in a park much closer and almost directly across from the church site. I am not a local or familiar with that area, so I can't confirm, but found it very interesting. Which brings to mind another question if anyone knows and can respond. Just where did she "dry land" her ski upon returning to the US water/land? Was it near this other dock?

When searching for the above mentioned article...I found this from today...I really am starting to think she has DPD or at least a split. The interviews WILL continue.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/25491607/detail.html

JMO

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Does she or David have a history of drug abuse? Do their friends use drugs? Do either one have a criminal record? Were they suspected before this of being dealers? Is there any suspicious account activity?

Sometimes reality is unbelievable IMO.