MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[Kristin Esq.]

@otto

Of course we are all entitled to our opinions here. You've posted that Michigan gun law several times, trying to make your point that Michigan does not require guns to be locked up; instead, it’s only a recommendation.

However—-

There are four corpses who, a few days ago, were children.

There are more children hospitalized with a variety of wounds.

There are hundreds of children who likely will experience trauma and PTSD for all their lives.

This is the germane issue. How did children become corpses? A simple formula:

Ethan Crumbley + loaded gun = dead children.

IMO those Michigan gun safety laws are very ambiguous. It’s illegal to allow a minor to own a gun. It’s illegal to allow a minor to obtain unsupervised access to a gun. Yet it’s not mandatory, only recommended, to safely store a gun so a child cannot access it.

Well then IMO the parents should have slept with the gun under their pillows, or taken it upon themselves to lock the gun up, or whatever else it would take to keep it away from Ethan, because this dreadful outcome shows they did not perform their duty of care as parents.

And there is no doubt this gun was meant for Ethan to own. The mother said so and Ethan has social media with that gun in his hands. That’s illegal and the parents didn’t care. So we get the outcome that we got.

Ethan did this, but he was allowed to.

I’ll never get over Ethan at the barricaded classroom door, telling the children inside that he was from the sheriff’s office and they were safe to come out. This is trickery on the most egregious level. And I know the parents don’t care because they ran away and left him to deal with the consequences alone.

Somehow a path was greased to enable Ethan to kill. Laws, Michigan laws, were broken.

Your opinion is very clear and you are entitled to it. This is all my opinion.

That wasn't Ethan at the barricaded door pretending to be a Sheriff. While it originally was thought to be him, this has been corrected.

'See my badge, bro': Oxford High School students escape through window as voice claims to be deputy

 

[Kristin Esq.]

I suspect that a lot of us would go on to ask the child about that video game, how many players, the game map, what software he's using, and so on, but it sounds like the "game design" answer was good enough for school and parents.

His parents might have believed their son. Is it possible that the seriousness of the situation did not register with his parents when they were first told about the drawing?

It's possible for sure, but there's more evidence than we know about. In the arraignment, the Prosecutor said there's tons of evidence and they will get it over to the defense asap. I think we'll find more in there as to what the parents knew about the son. I honestly believe they wouldn't have charged them if the parents didn't have some inkling that their son could be dangerous.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Because ECs gun potential was known to the parents.

The prosecutor has said they have over 100 hours of electronic evidence. I keep going back to why did his parents go to their house and search for evidence to see if Ethan was the shooter. What made them think their child was at that school shooting other kids? I think possibly the prosecutor has found info in those electronic communications that indicates the parents knew/should have known the possibility he could do this. We have a rural lifestyle, live on a ranch, husband shoots sporting clays, own numerous guns (all secured in safe). If I heard there was a shooting at one of my children’s school it would never enter my mind to wonder if my child was the shooter even though they live in a home with guns.

 

[MrsWatson]

I agree, but I still go back to he’s 15 and if he did not want the teacher to see that drawing he would not have been caught with it, at 15 you know how to hide things. Weather subconscious or directly, I think it was a cry for help, one more opportunity to recognize he was in a very bad place mentally.

I think it was also a cry for help. And his parents chose to do nothing to address it. How many other times had he given signals they ignored? Or was their way of addressing it to gift him a gun?

moo

 

[Kristin Esq.]

Perhaps in a school with 1700 students and three assistant principals (one for each grade) the administrators viewed the Ethan problem as one more student that had to be reprimanded that day, and then wondered "where are we having lunch." It sounds like he was a good student with no history of trouble. This was his first offence, and the drawing was believably a sign of the lively imagination of a future game designer.

We don't know what happened at the meeting, but we know the school did not require that the student leave the building.

It would be unusual for parents to remove a child from school when the school did not require it. The prosecutor can claim that the child was required to leave the building but the parents resisted or refused, but that's not how it works. A suspended child cannot remain in school, especially when the parents are at the meeting. The school could have had the resource officer escort the student to collect his things and taken the family off the property. That did not happen.

I highly doubt they were wondering what they were having for lunch when they told the parents that he needs emergency therapy within 48 hours or they will call CPS.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

It’s not illegal to buy a car for a driver who is under 18 years old, but they do need parental consent to buy a car themselves.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/B-32_159585_7.pdf

They also need a license or permit to use the car...

 

[MrsWatson]

It's possible for sure, but there's more evidence than we know about. In the arraignment, the Prosecutor said there's tons of evidence and they will get it over to the defense asap. I think we'll find more in there as to what the parents knew about the son. I honestly believe they wouldn't have charged them if the parents didn't have some inkling that their son could be dangerous.

Agree. The words and the phrases used by both the sheriff and the prosecutor in describing what they know, are very definitive. I have thoughts about exactly how much the parents knew and when.

Curious about electronic evidence. Was there any recovered from Ethan and Jennifer's visit to the gun range? What did that show?

moo

 

[Kristin Esq.]

I agree, but I still go back to he’s 15 and if he did not want the teacher to see that drawing he would not have been caught with it, at 15 you know how to hide things. Whether subconscious or directly, I think it was a cry for help, one more opportunity to recognize he was in a very bad place mentally.

Did he know how to hide things though? He was caught looking at ammunition which caused his mother to tell him not to get caught. moo.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Did he know how to hide things though? He was caught looking at ammunition which caused his mother to tell him not to get caught. moo.

It’s a possibility he did not, did not really care but both were red flags/opportunities he gave to the school to see what was possibly going on in his head.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

It’s a possibility he did not, did not really care but both were red flags/opportunities he gave to the school to see what was possibly going on in his head.

Oh I agree with that part 100%.

 

[sds71]

@JonathanD_TV

Some things are meant to be. Michigan scores 42. Tate Myre wore 42. His family served as honorary captains tonight.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

Here's a timeline with a bit of information that I didn't already know:

Friday, Nov. 26: James Crumbley buys a 9mm Sig Sauer from Acme Shooting Goods in Oxford, according to Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald. His 15-year-old son Ethan later posts a photo on Instagram of himself holding the semi-automatic handgun, writing: “Just got my new beauty today. SIG SAUER 9mm. Any questions I will answer.” He includes an emoji of a smiling face with heart eyes.

Saturday, Nov. 27: Jennifer Crumbley writes on social media that it is a “mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present,” the prosecutor says.

Monday, Nov. 29: A teacher sees Ethan, a sophomore at Oxford High, searching online for ammunition with his cellphone during class and reports it to school officials, McDonald says. Ethan meets with a school counselor and another staff member. He says he and his mother recently went to a shooting range and that shooting sports are a family hobby, according to Oxford Community Schools Superintendent Tim Throne.

School personnel call his mother, leave a voicemail and email her. She does not respond. While exchanging text messages with her son, she writes: “Lol. I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught.”

That night, Ethan Crumbley records a video in which he discusses killing students, according to sheriff’s Lt. Tim Willis.

Tuesday, Nov. 30: A teacher finds a note on Ethan’s desk that alarms her enough to take a photo, the prosecutor says. It includes a drawing of a handgun and the words: “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” Also depicted is a bullet with the words “blood everywhere” above a person who appears to have been shot twice and is bleeding. A laughing emoji is drawn below the figure. The note also says “my life is useless” and “the world is dead.” The teacher reports the information to school counselors and the dean.

A counselor removes Ethan from the classroom and takes him to the office with his backpack. The counselor obtains the drawing, but Ethan has already scratched out portions. He says the drawing is part of a video game he is designing and that he wants a career as a video game designer, the superintendent says.

The parents are summoned to the school for a meeting that occurs around 10 a.m. While the school tries to reach them, Ethan remains in the office for an hour-and-a-half as counselors continue to observe and speak with him, Throne says. Ethan expresses concern about missing homework assignments and asks for his science homework, which he works on while waiting. The counselors do not believe he will harm others based on his behavior, demeanor and responses, according to the superintendent.

The parents arrive and are shown the note. The counselors ask Ethan about his potential for self-harm or harming others. They again conclude he is not a risk due to his answers, which are affirmed by the parents. The parents are advised that they are required to get him counseling within 48 hours or the school will contact Children’s Protective Services. They refuse a request to take their son home for the day and leave without him, apparently to return to work, Throne says. He returns to the classroom rather than go “home to an empty house,” which the superintendent says is because he had no prior disciplinary infractions.

About 12:51 p.m., Ethan emerges from a bathroom with the gun his father bought four days before. He fires at students in the hallway, killing four and wounding six students and one teacher. Deputies capture him within minutes of the shooting. When news of an active shooter becomes public, Jennifer Crumbley texts her son at 1:22 p.m.: “Ethan don’t do it.” Fifteen minutes later, at 1:37 p.m., James Crumbley calls 911 to report that a gun was missing from his house and he believes his son may be the shooter. The gun had been kept unlocked in a drawer in the parents’ bedroom, McDonald says.

Wednesday, Dec. 1: Ethan is charged as an adult with murder and terrorism.

Friday, Dec. 3: James and Jennifer Crumbley are charged with involuntary manslaughter. Authorities cannot find them, and a manhunt is launched.

Saturday, Dec. 4: The Crumbleys are arrested around 1:30 a.m. after being caught hiding at a commercial building in Detroit. They enter not guilty pleas during a Zoom hearing, and a judge sets bond at $500,000 for each.

The superintendent announces there will be a third-party review of all events in the past week because the community and families “deserve a full, transparent accounting of what occurred.”

Key moments surrounding Michigan high school shooting | AP News

 

[mooseandcoffee]

I have a feeling that school resources and the over all school situation may be key factors. For example, my children have gone to the following two schools:

- School A "Bubbleville": School was in a high income socio economic bubble. Very involved parents kept problems to a minimum. The district offered higher wages- and therefore had their pick of highly capable teachers, administrators, councilers etc. They also had the resources to both quickly assign extra staff to assist a student- but also to take very quick action against persistent problem students.

- School B "Working Worldville: 85% students are from recently immigrated families . District is not wealthy. Most of the staff are great. The abilities of the councilers, however are not nearly the same.

There are no "multi disciplinary intervention" teams on stand by to address behavior problems. Traditional big families have met modern divorce rates. There are a lot of overwhelmed single parents and a lot of badly supervised children.

The school tolerates things that "Bubbleville" never would. The kid who brought the gun to school is gone fast and for good. Knives are given second, or third chances. So are bullies, persistent fighters, discipline problems and thieves. The alternative school is filled and Workingworld staff feel that exposure to the alternative school can worsen problems when they come back.

In the end, problem people who would have received individual attention in Bubbleville are given far less attention in Workingworldville. There are just far more problems and far less resources.

But it sounds like the school did what it could to notify the parents about their concerns and ask for outside support from them. The parents were the ones who did nothing.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

But it sounds like the school did what it could to notify the parents about their concerns and ask for outside support from them. The parents were the ones who did nothing.

I do think the ultimate responsibility lies with the parents but there was definitely more the school could have done. If they thought he was in such a bad place mentally that they were going to call CPS within 48 hours if parents did not arrange counseling then they recognized the seriousness of the situation. They could have called law enforcement to have him removed, get him in a supervised environment, search his backpack for weapons to keep him from harming himself. I think the school will be facing several civil liability lawsuits over this. Edited to add him asking for his science work, concerned that he was missing work, I can see that helping to lower your guard.

 

[MrsWatson]

Podcast featuring a reporter who was on the ground. Worth a listen, about 25 mins.

Podcast: School shooting at Oxford High School in Michigan

 

[LMDlong]

IMO and I’m not blaming the school but why was his backpack not searched that day ?
If the school does not have that authority, then why not have the parents check inside the backpack while they were there?
If the parents refuse to check their child’s backpack then have the police there. Our high school students are not allowed to carry backpacks. When there has been any concerns over the possibility of a dangerous student our local police are the first call and are in the meeting with the parents. If parents can’t come to the school or refuse to the student is taken to the police station to wait to be picked up by the parents .
There are “TOO” many school shootings. !

 

[LMDlong]

Here's a timeline with a bit of information that I didn't already know:

Friday, Nov. 26: James Crumbley buys a 9mm Sig Sauer from Acme Shooting Goods in Oxford, according to Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald. His 15-year-old son Ethan later posts a photo on Instagram of himself holding the semi-automatic handgun, writing: “Just got my new beauty today. SIG SAUER 9mm. Any questions I will answer.” He includes an emoji of a smiling face with heart eyes.

Saturday, Nov. 27: Jennifer Crumbley writes on social media that it is a “mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present,” the prosecutor says.

Monday, Nov. 29: A teacher sees Ethan, a sophomore at Oxford High, searching online for ammunition with his cellphone during class and reports it to school officials, McDonald says. Ethan meets with a school counselor and another staff member. He says he and his mother recently went to a shooting range and that shooting sports are a family hobby, according to Oxford Community Schools Superintendent Tim Throne.

School personnel call his mother, leave a voicemail and email her. She does not respond. While exchanging text messages with her son, she writes: “Lol. I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught.”

That night, Ethan Crumbley records a video in which he discusses killing students, according to sheriff’s Lt. Tim Willis.

Tuesday, Nov. 30: A teacher finds a note on Ethan’s desk that alarms her enough to take a photo, the prosecutor says. It includes a drawing of a handgun and the words: “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” Also depicted is a bullet with the words “blood everywhere” above a person who appears to have been shot twice and is bleeding. A laughing emoji is drawn below the figure. The note also says “my life is useless” and “the world is dead.” The teacher reports the information to school counselors and the dean.

A counselor removes Ethan from the classroom and takes him to the office with his backpack. The counselor obtains the drawing, but Ethan has already scratched out portions. He says the drawing is part of a video game he is designing and that he wants a career as a video game designer, the superintendent says.

The parents are summoned to the school for a meeting that occurs around 10 a.m. While the school tries to reach them, Ethan remains in the office for an hour-and-a-half as counselors continue to observe and speak with him, Throne says. Ethan expresses concern about missing homework assignments and asks for his science homework, which he works on while waiting. The counselors do not believe he will harm others based on his behavior, demeanor and responses, according to the superintendent.

The parents arrive and are shown the note. The counselors ask Ethan about his potential for self-harm or harming others. They again conclude he is not a risk due to his answers, which are affirmed by the parents. The parents are advised that they are required to get him counseling within 48 hours or the school will contact Children’s Protective Services. They refuse a request to take their son home for the day and leave without him, apparently to return to work, Throne says. He returns to the classroom rather than go “home to an empty house,” which the superintendent says is because he had no prior disciplinary infractions.

About 12:51 p.m., Ethan emerges from a bathroom with the gun his father bought four days before. He fires at students in the hallway, killing four and wounding six students and one teacher. Deputies capture him within minutes of the shooting. When news of an active shooter becomes public, Jennifer Crumbley texts her son at 1:22 p.m.: “Ethan don’t do it.” Fifteen minutes later, at 1:37 p.m., James Crumbley calls 911 to report that a gun was missing from his house and he believes his son may be the shooter. The gun had been kept unlocked in a drawer in the parents’ bedroom, McDonald says.

Wednesday, Dec. 1: Ethan is charged as an adult with murder and terrorism.

Friday, Dec. 3: James and Jennifer Crumbley are charged with involuntary manslaughter. Authorities cannot find them, and a manhunt is launched.

Saturday, Dec. 4: The Crumbleys are arrested around 1:30 a.m. after being caught hiding at a commercial building in Detroit. They enter not guilty pleas during a Zoom hearing, and a judge sets bond at $500,000 for each.

The superintendent announces there will be a third-party review of all events in the past week because the community and families “deserve a full, transparent accounting of what occurred.”

Key moments surrounding Michigan high school shooting | AP News

Jennifer Crumbley seems like she had a few screws loose.

 

[happyday]

I understand that the school advised the parents that the child needed counselling, and the prosecutor claims that the parents were told to remove the child from the school but they resisted.

If the child was bullied at school such that other children were aware of it, and the school had a violent drawing of a school shooting, but the school decision was to remove the upset, bullied child rather than get to the root of the problem - I see that as a failure by the school to keep students safe.

"The office of Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald filed involuntary manslaughter charges against the Crumbleys on Friday, accusing them of failing to intervene on the day of the tragedy ...

The Crumbleys committed "egregious" acts, from buying a gun on Black Friday and making it available to their son to resisting his removal from school when they were summoned a few hours before the shooting, McDonald said Friday."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jennifer-james-crumbley-michigan-school-shooting-1.6273754

He would use his backpack to bring books/lunch to school. Would he leave the backpack in his locker? I can't imagine a classroom with backpacks strewn everywhere. He asked to work on his assignment while he waited for his parents. I'm guessing his coat and backpack were somewhere else.

Without the school or the parents probing into this drawing, there would be no reason to look for a gun. The drawing was related to game design and it sounds like everyone accepted this explanation. He was required to have counselling in place within 48 hours, so someone suspected more but did not ask the right questions.

Was there a covid rule that students had to bring their backpacks to the classroom? If so, and he had his backpack with him at the office, then someone should have asked to look in his backpack.

However, its been reported that the gun was already in the school, possibly in the washroom.

I don’t know if they have lockers. The schools here don’t have lockers anymore—backpacks, coats everything goes with the student everywhere.

 

[happyday]

Perhaps in a school with 1700 students and three assistant principals (one for each grade) the administrators viewed the Ethan problem as one more student that had to be reprimanded that day, and then wondered "where are we having lunch." It sounds like he was a good student with no history of trouble. This was his first offence, and the drawing was believably a sign of the lively imagination of a future game designer.

We don't know what happened at the meeting, but we know the school did not require that the student leave the building.

It would be unusual for parents to remove a child from school when the school did not require it. The prosecutor can claim that the child was required to leave the building but the parents resisted or refused, but that's not how it works. A suspended child cannot remain in school, especially when the parents are at the meeting. The school could have had the resource officer escort the student to collect his things and taken the family off the property. That did not happen.

This meeting was apparently in the counselor’s office, not the principal’s office, so that tells me it was more about being concerned with his well being than discipline. It makes more sense to me that he was not suspended or backpack checked since it was a meeting with the counselor. JMO

 

[LMDlong]

I don’t know if they have lockers. The schools here don’t have lockers anymore—backpacks, coats everything goes with the student everywhere.

Our school has lockers but very few students use them because they don’t have time between classes. It’s the same today for my grandsons as it was for my children when they were in high school.