MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[Lillymac]

Kids do spend more of their time at school than at home during the school year - more of the time they are awake that is. However, while at school, high school and jr high teachers are seeing a particular student for only an hour to an hour and a half each - along with another 20 or so students. And, during that time they are supposed to teach the entire class a lesson. While they are trained to spot concerning behavior (as 2 seperate teachers did in this case) on a regular basis, they would not have time to sit down and check in with every student during class time.
Parents, on the other hand, theoretically should have that time and be checking in regularly with their kids. The reports said these 2 instances were the first time Ethan had interacted with the Principle's office, so truly none of them (Parents' or school) probably could have imagined what he had planned - BUT - the school would not have known he had access to a gun. Obviously the parents did. If they showed no concern, did not divulge he had been given and had been handeling a gun recently, and refused to take him out of school, I would think the school officials had no choice but to keep him the rest of the day. They would probably believe he would be safer because frankly, what he wrote at least on that drawing, sounded more like he was thinking about self harm than harming others. IMO.

Students have not spent more time in school than home in the last year and a half.

 

[everybodhi]

Perhaps in a school with 1700 students and three assistant principals (one for each grade) the administrators viewed the Ethan problem as one more student that had to be reprimanded that day, and then wondered "where are we having lunch." It sounds like he was a good student with no history of trouble. This was his first offence, and the drawing was believably a sign of the lively imagination of a future game designer.

We don't know what happened at the meeting, but we know the school did not require that the student leave the building.

It would be unusual for parents to remove a child from school when the school did not require it. The prosecutor can claim that the child was required to leave the building but the parents resisted or refused, but that's not how it works. A suspended child cannot remain in school, especially when the parents are at the meeting. The school could have had the resource officer escort the student to collect his things and taken the family off the property. That did not happen.

There was talk here about charging the administration for not suspending him and requiring him to leave, it’s been suggested they didn’t because they are afraid of parent’s lawsuits.
The Sheriff or DA said they were looking at all avenues when asked at a presser about this, I don’t think the administration will be criminally charged but I do expect their insurance will pay out on the civil suits that are inevitably coming their way.

 

[otto]

The police knew about a planned shooting? Oh no, where was that reported? Link??

Police were informed of the shooting before it happened. The Sheriff's office does not confirm nor deny whether they followed up on reports about a pending shooting.

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack, but he cautioned against believing that narrative until investigators can look into it."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-1.6268331

​

 

[tamsidea]

Students have not spent more time in school than home in the last year and a half.

Sorry, but that is not correct for all. We've been back in school in Texas since last October (2020) full time.

 

[tamsidea]

Police were informed of the shooting before it happened. The Sheriff's office does not confirm nor deny whether they followed up on reports about a pending shooting.

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack, but he cautioned against believing that narrative until investigators can look into it."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-1.6268331

​

That was said AFTER the shooting though. I don't believe there has been any reports that the authorities were aware of the social media posts prior to the shooting.

 

[otto]

That was said AFTER the shooting though. I don't believe there has been any reports that the authorities were aware of the social media posts prior to the shooting.

No, the article states that the Sheriff's office was aware of social media info about a pending shooting Before Tuesday's Attack. The Sheriff's office calls the reports "allegations" because they could not confirm nor deny the reports. That is, they most likely did not look into it before Tuesday's attack.

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack"​

 

[tamsidea]

Students have not spent more time in school than home in the last year and a half.

Oxford High School returns to virtual learning after COVID-19 outbreak, 195 students in quarantine
Looks like Oxford in particular returned to in-person school August 2020, except for a couple of days last Spring when they had a spike in cases.

 

[tamsidea]

No, the article states that the Sheriff's office was aware of social media info about a pending shooting Before Tuesday's Attack. The Sheriff's office calls the reports "allegations" because they could not confirm nor deny the reports. That is, they most likely did not look into it before Tuesday's attack.

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack"​

Sorry, but I believe this says they were, "aware there are allegations circulating on social media now that there were threats being posted before the attack, " not that they " were aware before the attack that there were allegations on social media of threats."
In other words, since the attack- a reporter asked - "hey, did you know this kid had been posting threats on social media?"

 

[otto]

Sorry, but I believe this says they were, "aware there are allegations circulating on social media now that there were threats being posted before the attack, " not that they " were aware before the attack that there were allegations on social media of threats."
In other words, since the attack- a reporter asked - "hey, did you know this kid had been posting threats on social media?"

I see what you mean - that the Sheriff's Office was aware after the fact that, prior to the shooting, there were social media rumblings about a school shooting. Perhaps you're right. The wording left me thinking that the Sheriff's Office were aware of social media posting prior to the shooting.

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack, but he cautioned against believing that narrative until investigators can look into it."​

 

[tamsidea]

Here was how a different reported worded it:
“We’re hearing all kinds of rumors about warning signs ... We are not aware of any warnings,” McCabe said. “I can tell you we work very closely with Tim Throne, the superintendent, and the principal of this school. If there were (warnings), I’ve got to believe they would have told us."
“There’s all kinds of stuff out on social media. Please don’t believe everything you hear.”
Police deny existence of threats prior to Oxford High School shooting that left three students dead.

However, while looking for that I saw this:
"Stacey Scheidt, the parent of a junior at Oxford, said she sent an email on Nov. 16 to Principal Steve Wolf, spelling out concerns and anxiety her son felt over threats posted to social media. She said rumors were swirling around an Instagram post involving a countdown to a school shooting."
Before Oxford shooting, parents repeatedly told school is safe

So, yikes... Guess they weren't working as closely as McCabe thought.

 

[otto]

I'm unfamiliar with prosecutors who are angry rather than professional, or advocating for change in law rather than strictly upholding the law. Canadian prosecutors have the job of prosecutor on the basis of merit, rather than election. Perhaps that makes them apparently apolitical, unemotional and appropriately distanced from the job.

“Four kids were murdered and seven more injured. So yes, I think we should all be very angry and we should take a very hard look at what is in place in terms of criminal responsibility and what gun owners are required to do,” she said."
​

School Gunman’s ‘Fugitive’ Parents Laugh, Cry in Court After Wild Manhunt

 

[otto]

Here was how a different reported worded it:
“We’re hearing all kinds of rumors about warning signs ... We are not aware of any warnings,” McCabe said. “I can tell you we work very closely with Tim Throne, the superintendent, and the principal of this school. If there were (warnings), I’ve got to believe they would have told us."
“There’s all kinds of stuff out on social media. Please don’t believe everything you hear.”
Police deny existence of threats prior to Oxford High School shooting that left three students dead.

However, while looking for that I saw this:
"Stacey Scheidt, the parent of a junior at Oxford, said she sent an email on Nov. 16 to Principal Steve Wolf, spelling out concerns and anxiety her son felt over threats posted to social media. She said rumors were swirling around an Instagram post involving a countdown to a school shooting."
Before Oxford shooting, parents repeatedly told school is safe

So, yikes... Guess they weren't working as closely as McCabe thought.

There must have been online posts about the shooting. How else would this student have known to stay home?

"One parent, Robin Redding, said her son, Treshan Bryant, is a 12th grader at the school but stayed home Tuesday. She said he had heard threats that there could be a shooting.

"This couldn't be just random," she said.

Redding didn't provide specifics about what her son had heard, but she expressed concern with school safety in general."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-1.6268331

The school and police should have been aware, given the level of community concern.

 

[Boxer]

Why were the parents given a choice about their child remaining in school? We know they were give a choice because he remained in school. The school did not suspend or otherwise require that he leave the building.

Why would the parents take the situation more seriously when the school did not see his continued presence in the school as a problem?

Because ECs gun potential was known to the parents.

 

[fr brown]

The shooter claimed that the drawings he made were for a video game he was designing. I'm not sure that I believe that explanation. And what about his troubling comment "The thoughts won't stop, help me"?

I don't see how that comment could be tied to a video game design. Why did his parents walk away from that? I don't get it. JMO.

School shooting suspect told counselors alarming drawings were for video game, superintendent says

Maybe he was laying the ground for an insanity defense. He didn't take the help when he was offered it.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

This is interesting.

After reading all the posts I mulled on the idea of the drawing.
I concluded - either EC was in desperate need of help - NOT schizophrenia (too young), but possibly a psychotic episode or drug related psychosis manifesting in hearing voices telling him to act out instructions.

OR.

The drawing was a goading, mocking, malevolent and sinister act designed as a threat. Part of his fantasy. And possibly 'pretending' to be mentally ill.

I now conclude the latter.

JMO MOO

The fact that he scratched out portions of the picture show me he knew it was troublesome and that it would cause red flags.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I have been grappling with this whole "didn't want to take him out of school" thing. I can't wrap my head around the idea that their child was writing things down that appeared to be a cry for help AND they insisted he go back to class. I don't know many parents who would be, "Yeah, honey we see that you were writing and drawing things about being hopeless and bullets going through people but dad and I think that you would be happier in science class. So, we won't take you home." At the very least, the parents I know would be more apt to say, "Let's go get a bite to eat, ditch the school work and talk about what is happening or you can show me that video game you are working on." Their reaction is mind boggling. They were both called from work. They both came but neither opted to spend private moments that might have changed the fate of those he murdered. If the counselor felt the only way to get this kid help was to threaten protective services if he wasn't seen in 48 hours, it shows a lot about their mindset and inability to comfort/help/rescue this young man. They let him become a murderer. He will have to spend the rest of his life in jail b/c they failed to parent him. If convicted, I believe it will be the right outcome but I empathize with him needing help and knowing that these two people wouldn't rise to the task. And, once again, he was failed because the pushed to leave him there.

My exact thoughts too, why in the world did they not want to let him come home from school that day. Even if they did not want to take off from work to spend time with him, he was old enough to be home alone. You are correct, at the minimum parents would spend time with their child after seeing that disturbing drawing . I empathize with him also, how long has he been crying out for help and never getting any answers to that cry. The school failed to answer that cry too. That said I do agree he needs to be incarcerated

 

[MrsWatson]

The parents illegally purchased the gun for their underage son. It was clearly his gun, as indicated by his mother's social media posts, as well as his own. The gun was not stored in a safe way, since he was easily able to access it. While I do not absolve the school of all responsibility, at this point do not know why they did not take further action. Did Ethan have an IEP in place? That may determine how much the school was able to do, from a legal standpoint.

But the full responsibility lies with the parents. They saw the drawing, were advised about it, and chose to do nothing except flat out refuse to take him out of school. That, to me, remains shocking. Most parents, seeing something like that, generally would feel a great sense of urgency that something was not right with their child. They chose to do nothing.

For expample: Adults buy booze, they knowingly host a party for their child where other minors are served alcohol. Who is responsible if one of the minors then dies from alcohol poisoning or gets in a car and kills someone? You buy your minor child a gun on Friday and on Tuesday, he shoots up his school. Who provided the alcohol? Who provided the gun?

moo

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

The fact that he scratched out portions of the picture show me he knew it was troublesome and that it would cause red flags.

I agree, but I still go back to he’s 15 and if he did not want the teacher to see that drawing he would not have been caught with it, at 15 you know how to hide things. Whether subconscious or directly, I think it was a cry for help, one more opportunity to recognize he was in a very bad place mentally.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

Haven't seen anything on this - did the parents have weapons on them (or in their vehicle) when they were arrested?

In the press conference, the Sheriff said they weren't armed.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Why were the parents given a choice about their child remaining in school? We know they were give a choice because he remained in school. The school did not suspend or otherwise require that he leave the building.

Why would the parents take the situation more seriously when the school did not see his continued presence in the school as a problem?

I don’t understand why it was a choice either, it didn’t have to be a suspension, they could’ve required him just to take him home for the day, count it as an absence, require him to go to in school observation for the day, they could’ve required him to stay in the counselors office. I do believe his parents hold the ultimate responsibility since they were aware he did have access to the gun and they obviously had concerns he could be the shooter. After the shooting they looked for evidence in their home to see if he was involved. I think in addition to that drawing, there were other things going on that led them to believe he could be the shooter. I’m guessing the prosecution has found evidence of these "other things", why they are being charged.