MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[happyday]

The prosecutor has alluded to more evidence. I think it will blow our minds when we hear it.

it’s obvious to me the prosecutor is nervous and is trying to make a stand. Good for her.

all IMO

Yes! I appreciate what this prosecutor is doing by charging the parents. She knows it will be an uphill battle and not everyone will agree with it. But it’s so important IMO. Maybe if more parents are held accountable when they specifically make such a horrific event possible, there will be less of these types of shootings. My opinion is that it WILL help. The parents are not always responsible, but I bet you’re right that they have some VERY damning evidence that we don’t know about yet. Parents might try harder if it’s clear that they could very well go to prison if their kid goes and shoots up the school. It shouldn’t be necessary, but there are some pretty despicable, narcissistic parents out there apparently.

 

[passionflower]

John Kelly, profiler, covered the case (source approved, per mod).

He is worth watching!

 

[passionflower]

The 10% is off the table, they would need to come up with a cool million between them to get out. Their house is just $1,200 square feet, an average middle class home not worth enough to get them out in my opinion.

They shouldn't have their jobs taken away and loose everything, they haven't been convicted yet.

As an employer I would not want them in my office for many reasons. Therefore I would terminate their employment.

 

[MrsWatson]

As an employer I would not want them in my office for many reasons. Therefore I would terminate their employment.

Michigan is an "at will" employment state. Seems an easy decision, right?

 

[Ruminations]

Their school counselors are probably not trained to identify psychopathy but they should be.

Dangerous people do not have to be psychopaths.

IMO, since the parents would not make sure their son was safe (or at least would not tell the school about it), this was a reasonable CPS call. In addition, it was a reason to call an emergency CSE meeting to get the child assessed to see if he had a disability interfering with his ability to get an education.

IMO the school neglected to make sure the shooters educational needs were being met by failing to do those two things: call CPS for an investigation of possible medical neglect by the parents, and call an emergency meeting to immediately assess if he needed accommodations to get an appropriate education.

And, once CPS is informed, that does not mean the school just waits for them to fix the problem. They still have their own Special Education steps to take to assess the child.

It gets on my nerves when it seems to me that schools want to be the last resort, not an agency that can act first, perhaps at the same time as other institutions. It seems obvious that there are possible child neglect issues, possible child legal conduct issues, possible parent legal conduct issues, and even possible societal issues which the school can’t control. But there are well-established things the school can do, and it seems to me that there is no reason not to do them immediately, not wait to see if the other systems help first.

(I will reserve my opinions about whether or not the school made legal mistakes until I know more; my opinion is evolving.)

 

[Cinna]

Curious about “shooting sports are a family hobby”.

So there are other guns in the house?

Other guns shown on Ethan’s and parents social media showing their hobby?

What sport? Hunting? SASS? Target shooting? Participants in the local gun club?

Wonder why this particular gun?
He’s too young to conceal carry which I would consider this type more suited for versus a “sporting hobby”.
JMO

A semi automatic hand gun is great for sport. The type of gun each person is comfortable with varies. I prefer a .380. My son a 9mm. My mother and father enjoy a 22. An AR-15 sounds scary, but its super fun to shoot on the range.

I would guess they have several guns in the house if it's a family hobby. But guns can be expensive. They may rent guns at a shooting range.

MOO

 

[Boxer]

Maybe threatening material should just be automatic suspension.

 

[bestill]

He is worth watching!

He opened my eyes about the mental health struggle Ethan was dealing with!

My take away is that no one was paying attention to Ethan, really listening to what this kid needed or watching what he was doing, especially at home! Maybe the only attention he was getting was gun related, his dad took him gun shopping, his mom praticed shooting with him, possibly his friends were chiming in on his social media about the gun, his teacher reacted to him shopping for ammo, etc...

 

[MimosaMornings]

Wondering about the search for ammo while at school.....
He wanted to go target shooting again with his mother but they had used all the ammo?

He was planning something else that required a lot of ammo.

Cost comparison? Availability?
I’m guessing he didn’t have a part time job so he would have to ask his parents to buy it.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Maybe threatening material should just be automatic suspension.

Knowing what they know now, the school would have been justified to issue a “snap suspension” per the Model Code of School Conduct. But it appears that the Michigan school system has had to walk a fine line with legality since the zero tolerance policy was abolished.

In December 2016, Michigan Governor Rick Snyder signed a bill into law that abolished the state’s zero tolerance policy for delinquent students. The measure, which went into effect August 1, 2017, gives schools a broader range of options for dealing with students who break the rules. Previously, schools were legally obligated to expel students who brought dangerous weapons to school or committed other serious misdeeds. Now, schools can consider the broader picture and determine whether expulsion is the best solution for problematic students.

Before the shift away from the zero tolerance policy, Michigan schools had to permanently expel any student that committed any of the following:

• Bringing dangerous weapon to school
• Engaging in criminal sexual conduct
• Committing arson
• Physically assaulting a school employee or volunteer

Suspensions or temporary expulsions were mandated for students who:

• Physically assaulted another student
• Verbally assaulted a student, school employee, or volunteer
• Made a bomb threat

As a result of these policies, Michigan schools expelled over 1,300 students during the 2015-2016 school year. Around 40% of these students were expelled because they engaged in “prohibited behaviors.” Bring weapons to school was the second most frequent reason for expulsion, accounting for 20% of the total.

https://www.michigancriminallawyer.com/new-law-replace-zero-tolerance-michigan-schools/

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mde/2019_Model_Code_of_Student_Conduct_SBE_APPROVED_661838_7.pdf

 

[Doghairrules]

I recall reading that it took a bit of time for the parents to show up for the meeting at the school that morning. So much time that Ethan asked to work on his science homework. Was he allowed to go get his book bag at that point? I am wondering if he hid the gun while he was retrieving the book bag OR did he retrieve the book bag to have the gun during the meeting? I still have so many questions about what happened before the event and why his parents didn't take the schools suggestions and concerns seriously.

Excellent questions. Yes one of the articles said it took the parents 1.5 hours to get there.

 

[happyday]

He opened my eyes about the mental health struggle Ethan was dealing with!

My take away is that no one was paying attention to Ethan, really listening to what this kid needed or watching what he was doing, especially at home! Maybe the only attention he was getting was gun related, his dad took him gun shopping, his mom praticed shooting with him, possibly his friends were chiming in on his social media about the gun, his teacher reacted to him shopping for ammo, etc...

You could be SO right!!! For EC guns=attention.

 

[Ruminations]

It's interesting that we so easily accept a violent drawing from a 15 year old child, where there is a gun, blood and a plea for help, and quickly dismiss it as "a game." It seems like we have some really crazy values when a drawing like that is so easily accepted as normal.

First, a drawing like that is normal in video games, and video games are a very important influence on our youth/young adults.

It was irresponsible not to make sure that child’s mental health needs are met, IMO; i am not convinced the school took all actions it should have.

It is crazy to accept the video games as normal without any safe guards.

https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/video-games-are-the-new-contested-space-for-public-policy/

“Ian Bogost, a professor of media studies at the Georgia Institute of Technology, has argued that the interactive nature of video games makes them an inherently persuasive medium—a system of “procedural rhetoric” that encourages players to create abstract mental models for how systems work and to form judgments about those systems through the act of playing. The design of a game’s models and systems of interactions are intentional choices by the designers, and they set the terms for how a person encounters the game. One video game designer called this effort to induce a certain type of player reaction “emotion engineering” in the design process.”

 

[Kristin Esq.]

Curious about “shooting sports are a family hobby”.

So there are other guns in the house?

Other guns shown on Ethan’s and parents social media showing their hobby?

What sport? Hunting? SASS? Target shooting? Participants in the local gun club?

Wonder why this particular gun?
He’s too young to conceal carry which I would consider this type more suited for versus a “sporting hobby”.
JMO

I'm sure we will find out more as time goes on that maybe helps answer your question.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

My understanding is that they won’t be allowed to post a percentage—only the whole amount to get out. I don’t think they’re going anywhere.

You are correct. It's cash surety so no percentage, it has to be the whole thing.

 

[Murphy1950]

I understand and agree with you on something’s. But you got a kid that never was cause for concern. Then he’s looking up ammo , drawing pictures. He’s taken out of glass , parents are called and a meeting takes place. If I was a counselor or parent of one of the students I would want to know if EC and his parents were asked in the meeting if there were guns at home . To me a crystal ball is not needed it’s common sense .

100% on board with this comment. When the Columbine shooting happened, it totally changed how police respond to this type of call. Before the Colorado shooting, responding officers would set up a secure perimeter around the crime scene before even thinking about moving on the suspect. “Nowadays, what we do is go to the sound of the guns,” Gagliano said. “You get one, two, three, four people together. We’re trained. We use particular formations.

What are counselors trained to do? Surely that has changed over the years with school shootings, especially evaluating kids at high school level. When they found an alarming note he had drawn, scrawled with images of a gun, a person who had been shot, a laughing emoji and the words “Blood everywhere” and “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” School officials told the parents during the in-person meeting that they were required to seek counseling for their son. If there was that concern on behalf of the school...that the parents were required to seek help, it should have been immediately. IMO NOTE: this wasn't a suggestion it was a requirement. They knew something wasn't right.

So if a person was bleeding from an accident, would they say, You are required to to take them to the hospital, later ??
Did they take it that lightly (?) and him at his word, it was for a video game he's creating ? That is just an acceptable answer? I don't think it takes a crystal ball either. If I had to guess, I'd say the administrators/counselors hands are tied. Betting its a liability issue. He has to make threat or something before they can act. We have a good Samaritan law, maybe we need a common sense law, that people in the positions of make a judgment call would be protected.

Caitlin Miller, 5, was suspended from kindergarten for playing with this stick. "Hoke County Schools will not tolerate assaults, threats or In another story from 2013, a five-year-old girl was suspended from a Pennsylvania school for pretending to shoot another student with a bubble gun.

 

[Ruminations]

JC wrote in a letter that her mother was a teacher so she knows the school system well. Yet didn’t co operate by taking her son home.

I don’t see the relevance.

The school has educational, school safety and legal obligations that are independent of parent behavior.

The above is a fact. If the school met these obligations completely, partially or not at all is opinion.

 

[borndem]

Police were informed of the shooting before it happened. The Sheriff's office does not confirm nor deny whether they followed up on reports about a pending shooting.

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack, but he cautioned against believing that narrative until investigators can look into it."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-1.6268331

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Something "in the air" made some students decide not to go to school that day -- dunno what, of course, but something made them suspicious enuff to stay home...

 

[Sundog]

The parents knew about the weapon AND the intent. They were the only ones with at least two pieces of the puzzle.

I haven't seen any link that shows evidence that the parents knew about the intent to shoot up the school, but may have missed it. If they knew he had access to the gun + the intent to do harm to others at the school, then I would agree that there are grounds for involuntary manslaughter.

 

[Ruminations]

The drawing was such a cry for help and it was disregarded. It’s like a little part of Ethan’s mind was still fighting and didn’t want this to happen. The teacher tried to help. The school tried to help. The parents completely failed their son by refusing to take him home. You can get into a nature vs. nurture argument here, but honestly, it seems like there would have been a chance for this kid to get help if the parents didn’t just let this slide.

However, if I were that school principal, I would have suspended him for the day and sent him home for his own safety.
Hindsight being 20/20, of course.

How many other kids out there are on the verge of cracking right now and no one is paying attention?

You would have suspended him for calling out for help? Suspension is a disciplinary action. I agree with you, except I would have pulled him out non punitively and had him hang with the school psychologist, who could develop an opinion on if this was a psychiatric emergency, and, if not, proceed to do all possible to obtain parent consent for assessments, and to obtain data to present if the school wishes to begin a process to assess without parental consent.