MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[Cool Cats]

Third party to investigate Oxford High School’s actions ahead of fatal shooting

Misia Winowski, center left, holds her 14-year-old daughter Madolyne close as the two cope alongside thousands in their community, seeking healing and comfort during a candlelight vigil four days after the Oxford High School shooting.

A third party will investigate events at Oxford High School.

Oxford Community Schools Superintendent Tim Throne said in a statement that he called for the outside investigation because parents have asked questions about “the school’s version of events leading up to the shooting.” He also elaborated on interactions with the student leading up to the shooting.

Waterford resident Andrew Baldwin, cousin of Madisyn Baldwin, places candles at the base of a a memorial with his 5-year-old daughter Ariyah Baldwin

“It’s critically important to the victims, our staff and our entire community that a full and transparent accounting be made,” Throne said.

His comments came after a news conference Friday by Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald that detailed numerous warning signs from the student charged in the shooting: His search for gun ammunition e is going to chastise or attack, but yeah,” McDonald said. Asked if school officials may potentially be charged, she said: “The investigation’s ongoing.”

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I think laying blame on the parents of children who break the law has to be applied across the board, or not at all. Everyone who has raised a 15 year old child knows that parents know almost nothing about what their children are thinking at that age. I don't think the parents had any idea what their son was thinking or feeling about life at school.

After the shooting they noticed that the gun was missing, not before. No one at the school told them that they thought their son was going to shoot up the school, and it doesn't look like it occurred to the parents until after it happened.

I also take issue with the fact that the child is charged as an adult, meaning he had the ability to form the intent to commit the criminal act in the same way as an adult, but at the same time the child was so young that his parents should have managed him better. Which is it? Was he thinking as an adult, or did he still require parental intervention for guidance, supervision and mental health care?

My understanding is the legal argument is not just because they are his parents they are responsible but that the prosecutor has information/evidence that these 2 people, who happen to be his Mom and Dad, should have known that this was a probability/ going to happen and they did not intervene, they still provided him with a gun. I think the same charges could apply if a fellow student or other adult had provided the gun for him knowing that Ethan was unstable, had evidence that the other person knew Ethan was contemplating/capable of doing something like this.

 

[LMDlong]

Exactly what I wanted to say!!! The counselors should have known this, they should be able to recognize sociopathic behavior... I feel that they just did the least amount possible (with the exception of the teacher who reported the drawing) and didn't take this seriously. They had the "it would never happen here" mentality. Such a preventable tragedy

IMO

I read in an article this morning , a parent of one of N. Cruz’s victims said that LE should have been contacted before the meeting .

 

[stattlich1]

A few thoughts based on my 20 years of experience working in a public school at the high school level.

There is no possible way a school can stop bullying. Sure, a bully can be reprimanded, disciplined, suspended, or maybe even expelled, but to think that bullying can be prevented by some policy in effect in a public school is naïve at best.

As terrible as it may seem, there are literally hundreds of at-risk/dangerous students in U.S. public schools. Serious psychiatric and/or emotional diagnoses, along with quite the array of medications, along with myriad stressors, are commonplace.

Public schools are under tremendous pressure to provide a safe environment for students and staff.....which in reality, can not possibly be done to perfection, something even the U.S. prison system fails to do.

I always look to Courthouses in America as a litmus test for how to provide a secure facility. In many, if not most, there is round the clock armed presence, and all persons entering proceed through metal detection of some type so as to prevent the introduction of firearms to the building(s). Ever wonder why it's good enough for the judges and attorneys, but not the students and faculty?

The greatest reveal in this case for me are the reports that some students stayed home that day. That, in and of itself, tells me more than all the other reports available.

A students 'record' is quite protected. I'd be surprised if this student's file had nothing more than test scores and report cards in it.

There are myriad legal arguments to act, or to NOT act, in any given situation in a public school. Two questions that administrators most always have in mind are...

What is your reason for doing what you did or what you want to do?

Where did you get the authority to do what you did or what you want to do?

So if a school were to search this student's bag and/or locker, they would potentially, in a court of law, have to answer these questions. Probable cause to search would have to be shown.

The other thing that bothers me is that the school asked the parents to take this student home, and when they refused, the school seemingly sent him back to class. IF he was that distraught, or dangerous, or some other concern was there that the school felt he should go home, then why did they send him back to class, or permit him free and unsupervised access to the building?

In my opinion....
The shooter here is the murderer.
The parents likely bare some responsibility in his having access to the firearm, however, crazy at it may sound, that may not bear out in a courtroom in the U.S.
The school may or may not be held liable, we simply haven't enough information at this point to make that determination.

 

[LMDlong]

100% on board with this comment. When the Columbine shooting happened, it totally changed how police respond to this type of call. Before the Colorado shooting, responding officers would set up a secure perimeter around the crime scene before even thinking about moving on the suspect. “Nowadays, what we do is go to the sound of the guns,” Gagliano said. “You get one, two, three, four people together. We’re trained. We use particular formations.

What are counselors trained to do? Surely that has changed over the years with school shootings, especially evaluating kids at high school level. When they found an alarming note he had drawn, scrawled with images of a gun, a person who had been shot, a laughing emoji and the words “Blood everywhere” and “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.” School officials told the parents during the in-person meeting that they were required to seek counseling for their son. If there was that concern on behalf of the school...that the parents were required to seek help, it should have been immediately. IMO NOTE: this wasn't a suggestion it was a requirement. They knew something wasn't right.

So if a person was bleeding from an accident, would they say, You are required to to take them to the hospital, later ??
Did they take it that lightly (?) and him at his word, it was for a video game he's creating ? That is just an acceptable answer? I don't think it takes a crystal ball either. If I had to guess, I'd say the administrators/counselors hands are tied. Betting its a liability issue. He has to make threat or something before they can act. We have a good Samaritan law, maybe we need a common sense law, that people in the positions of make a judgment call would be protected.

Caitlin Miller, 5, was suspended from kindergarten for playing with this stick. "Hoke County Schools will not tolerate assaults, threats or In another story from 2013, a five-year-old girl was suspended from a Pennsylvania school for pretending to shoot another student with a bubble gun.

You said that so well . Bravo.

 

[Boxer]

Poor students.
High school is hard enough without fearing becoming someones live round target practice.

 

[Cinna]

I think laying blame on the parents of children who break the law has to be applied across the board, or not at all. Everyone who has raised a 15 year old child knows that parents know almost nothing about what their children are thinking at that age. I don't think the parents had any idea what their son was thinking or feeling about life at school.

After the shooting they noticed that the gun was missing, not before. No one at the school told them that they thought their son was going to shoot up the school, and it doesn't look like it occurred to the parents until after it happened.

I also take issue with the fact that the child is charged as an adult, meaning he had the ability to form the intent to commit the criminal act in the same way as an adult, but at the same time the child was so young that his parents should have managed him better. Which is it? Was he thinking as an adult, or did he still require parental intervention for guidance, supervision and mental health care?

They didn't "notice" the gun was missing. The father went home to check on the gun when he heard there was a school shooting. His first thought was not "is my son OK". It was "I better check because I think he took the gun". Same with the mother. She didn't text "are you ok". She texted him "don't do it". To me, this shows that they clearly knew their son's mental state.

You can't judge all cases equally. In this case, I see clear foreknowledge of EC's metal state and capability. That isn't the case with all parents.

MOO

 

[x_files]

the parents don



I’m a social worker in an Inpt psych hospital and imo thoughts don’t mean voices necessarily but it definitely appears he has obsessive thoughts for sure. Probably more cluster b personality type which I don’t consider mental illness personally imo.

Could be obsessive intrusive thoughts?


thank you! I meant to do that but bath time with the baby interrupted lol

Where would the 15 year old get a deer head?

"He also downplayed the significance of an incident in early November when a deer head was thrown off the school roof, which he said was "absolutely unrelated" to the shooting. The vandalism prompted school administrators to post two letters to parents on the school's website this month, saying they were responding to rumours of a threat against the school but had found none."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-1.6268331

From a hunting trip with his father or family/friends. Wouldn't be that difficult.

 

[Cool Cats]

From a hunting trip with his father or family/friends. Wouldn't be that difficult.

There is no indication Ethan threw a deer head off the school roof. Not related.

 

[LMDlong]

MOO It was de facto Ethans gun, bought by Dad.
MOO they wanted to give him a gun because...<modsnip> But MOO mostly because as parents they wanted to give a present he really loved.
MOO they were naive in that they could indulge in violent rhetoric with their immature teen, provide killing power and support not following rules generally without creating a extremely dangerous situation.

And MOO the gun might have been in part to try and keep an increasingly alienated Ethan engaged with them, but they disregarded others safety negligently.

This kid was crying out for help . If your child has issues or something is not right then a gun is not the right thing to purchase for spending time together. IMO

 

[Arkay]

The parents immediately suspected Ethan was the shooter. They knew he was dangerous.

Yes, as so many of us have said, besides laughing off Ethan's online search for ammo while at school, the other text of which we've been informed was the mother’s text, "Ethan don't do it."

IMO but with near certainty of a guess, I’m sure the other parents’ texts to their children were all on the order of “ where are you???” “Are you ok?” “Don’t make noise, go under your desk, I’m on my way to the school, I love you” and other texts of that nature.

Yet from what we know, when there was news of a school shooting Ethan’s mother texted “don’t do it” and the father went to see if the gun was at home. Did they text “are you safe?” and so on? It doesn’t seem so and IMO shows a consciousness of their son’s ability to have done this.

On a separate note, as all the other teachers on here will know, it doesn’t matter in the least if Jennifer’s mother is a teacher. It’s like being a parent—-you really don’t know what’s involved until you are doing it.

<modsnip>

TL; DR--teaching is much more than education, but we try with all our might to help the Ethans and all the rest of our students.

 

[Boxer]

Well for the parents and families putting their loved children in the ground...
I wish for them, that Ethan and his parents to come to realize, and understand the unending grief and harm done.

 

[Boxer]

Wonder if JC's "Don't do it" text was a late reponse to something Ethan texted her.

 

[ilovewings]

Well for the parents and families putting their loved children in the ground...
I wish for them, that Ethan and his parents to come to realize, and understand the unending grief and harm done.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Ethan or his parents to come to realize or care the unending grief and harm they have caused.

 

[Sundog]

They didn't "notice" the gun was missing. The father went home to check on the gun when he heard there was a school shooting. His first thought was not "is my son OK". It was "I better check because I think he took the gun". Same with the mother. She didn't text "are you ok". She texted him "don't do it". To me, this shows that they clearly knew their son's mental state.

You can't judge all cases equally. In this case, I see clear foreknowledge of EC's metal state and capability. That isn't the case with all parents.

MOO

When he heard there was a school shooting, he went home to check on the gun - which makes sense since they had just come from a meeting with school officials about their son's drawings. It's possible that Ethan manipulated both the school officials and his parents, and the latter for some time. He may have urged them to buy a gun that he could use with them at target practice, etc. and they went ahead and did so, thinking of bonding with their son over a family interest in shooting sports as stated above, when all the time he had another plan going on in his head. We don't have all the evidence yet, but at this stage, with what we do know, it is very possible that this kid is extremely manipulative. Look how he fooled the school authorities, worried about getting behind in his science class, so they brought him his assignment so he could work in their office while they waited for the parents to arrive. Meanwhile, within a few hours, he was going to murder his classmates and possibly teachers, all apparently indiscriminately.

 

[bestill]

Wonder if JC's "Don't do it" text was a late reponse to something Ethan texted her.

I have wondered if he left them a note at home

 

[Boxer]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Ethan or his parents to come to realize or care the unending grief and harm they have caused.

True. But it is the justice that is real. For them to really get what they have done.

 

[Boxer]

When he heard there was a school shooting, he went home to check on the gun - which makes sense since they had just come from a meeting with school officials about their son's drawings. It's possible that Ethan manipulated both the school officials and his parents, and the latter for some time. He may have urged them to buy a gun that he could use with them at target practice, etc. and they went ahead and did so, thinking of bonding with their son over a family interest in shooting sports as stated above, when all the time he had another plan going on in his head. We don't have all the evidence yet, but at this stage, with what we do know, it is very possible that this kid is extremely manipulative. Look how he fooled the school authorities, worried about getting behind in his science class, so they brought him his assignment so he could work in their office while they waited for the parents to arrive. Meanwhile, within a few hours, he was going to murder his classmates and possibly teachers, all apparently indiscriminately.

Very possible.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I have wondered if he left them a note at home

Law-enforcement has refer to a journal where Ethan wrote about shooting others. I think she found the journal and text him but there could have been another note, possibly a suicide note. MOO

 

[bestill]

We know that mom texted Ethan after the shootings and dad reported the gun missing and that their son may be the shooter. What did they do next? Go to the school or sit and wait for the next shoe to fall.