MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[Snoopster]

I'm leaning towards benefit of the doubt, regardless of how they appear today. I didn't watch the entire arraignment, just charges. Both parents seemed quite upset with the charges - but perhaps his parents carelessly gave their son a gun to take to school.

yes, they seemed upset with the charges. But that might be simple righteouness. "How DARE anyone charge us?? We might actually lose our freedom!" (my made up quotes) Just like they brushed off the school officials.

That doesn't necessarily translate to innocence of the charges.

 

[otto]

Apparently the dad did check on the gun when he heard about the shooting:

Fifteen minutes later, at 1:37 p.m., James Crumbley calls 911 to report that a gun was missing from his house and he believes his son may be the shooter. The gun had been kept unlocked in a drawer in the parents' bedroom, McDonald says.
Oxford High School shooting timeline: Key moments in the case

Unlocked in parents' bedroom. Does that fulfill these Michigan requirements? Is unlocked in a drawer in the parents' bedroom considered to be "lawfully stored" in Michigan?

"While Michigan has criminal laws in place that could be applied if a parent were to negligently allow their child to access their firearm, there is no law specifically mandating they lock their guns away and separate the weapons from the ammunition.

According to Michigan state police: “You may be criminally and civilly liable for any harm caused by a person less than 18 years of age who lawfully gains unsupervised access to your firearm if unlawfully stored. As such, a trigger lock, gun case or other device designed to prevent unauthorized access to a firearm is strongly recommended.”
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Stricter gun laws? The question looms over Michigan politics in wake of deadly school shooting

 

[Lux et Veritas]

It's over - I hope I was able to get all the information to you guys. Was trying to type as fast as they were speaking!

If you need me to, I can copy all my posts into one long post

Thank you so much, Kristin! A great service to our WS community! : )

 

[MsMarple]

Do we know for sure that no one called the school about this? Did all of the students who stayed home "play sick"?
If my son had told me the real reason he was staying home, I absolutely would have called the school.
I just can't imagine that not one student would have told the parents why s/he was not going -- and I can't imagine that none of the parents would have called. JMO and SMH.
Yes, this is a mystery.

That’s the crazy thing, several students did tell their parents they wanted to stay home because they had heard rumors about something bad happening at school that day.

As far as we know none of the parents contacted the school although we may hear differently as more information comes out. But for now it appears rumors were circulating for at least a day.

 

[ReadySet]

There is no evidence that this "happened earlier and the school blew them off."
And even if it did, no effort is ever wasted in order to prevent a tragedy!

I feel like this is exactly what happened earlier and the school blew them off. So they may have felt it would just be wasted effort/given up on the school taking the rumors seriously.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Yep. And I just came to post this, from the NYT this morning. I was originally thinking the school couldn’t force him to leave because technically he hadn’t done anything yet, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. Just like with Parkland and others, so many missed opportunities to prevent the bloodshed.


_____________
Catherine J. Ross, a law professor at George Washington University and expert on student rights, said she found the school’s reaction “truly astounding.”

It was well within the school’s rights to require Mr. Crumbley, who has since pleaded not guilty to murder and terrorism charges, to leave campus, Professor Ross said.

If the parents refused to take Mr. Crumbley home, it was the legal and ethical responsibility of the school, Professor Ross said, to “remove the student from the classroom and put them in a safe place — safe for other people and safe for themselves.”

In the Michigan Shooting, What Is the School’s Responsibility?

I can absolutely see the families of the victims filing suit against the school district. The authorities at the top blew through every red flag.

 

[Doghairrules]

They didn't give him a gun. They purchased a gift for Christmas, and it sounds like his mother intended to supervise him using the gun.

That is not in evidence. What IS in evidence if that he went with his father to purchase the gun. Then took pictures of his “beauty” for social media, then went target shooting with his mother for some mother-son “bonding” time with his Christmas present. Mom never indicated anything one way or the other about intending to supervise him. And frankly, if that had been their intent the very first thing they would have done was lock that gun up.

 

[Doghairrules]

There is no evidence that this "happened earlier and the school blew them off."
And even if it did, no effort is ever wasted in order to prevent a tragedy!

I am talking about the letter that was sent to parents and students in November saying they (the school) was aware of the rumors, that they had investigated them and found no threats.

 

[Doghairrules]

They didn’t “learn how to not get caught”.

Don’t forget the “lol.”

 

[otto]

I have been grappling with this whole didn't want to take him out of school thing. I can't wrap my head around the idea that their child was writing things down that appeared to be a cry for help AND they insisted he go back to class. I don't know many parents who would be, "Yeah, honey we see that you were writing and drawing things about being hopeless and bullets going through people but dad and I think that you would be happier in science class. So, we won't take you home." At the very least, the parents I know would be more apt to say, "Let's go get a bite to eat, ditch the school work and talk about what is happening or you can show me that video game you are working on." Their reaction is mind boggling. They were both called from work. They both came but neither opted to spend private moments that might have changed the fate of those he murdered. If the counselor felt the only way to get this kid help was to threaten protective services if he wasn't seen in 48 hours, it shows a lot about their mindset and inability to comfort/help/rescue this young man. They let him become a murderer. He will have to spend the rest of his life in jail b/c they failed to parent him. If convicted, I believe it will be the right outcome but I empathize with him needing help and knowing that these two people wouldn't rise to the task. And, once again, he was failed because the pushed to leave him there.

He's a child in the eyes of the school, an adult in the eyes of the law. A drawing he made of the shooting was reported by a teacher and so little was done by school authorities.

It's unfortunate that more was not done, when so much was known.

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack ..."
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-1.6268331

At age 15, the question of whether he can be rehabilitated matters. If the goal is to be punitive, to treat him as a throw away person, that's harsh.

 

[ReadySet]

The incident earlier in November was vandalisim that LE has said had no connection to this one.

I am talking about the letter that was sent to parents and students in November saying they (the school) was aware of the rumors, that they had investigated them and found no threats.

 

[Spyralflare]

I do wonder about the other incidents, ie the deer head being left at the school. Was that Ethan’s doing? It would seem so, from his social media reference to it (now pulled).

if there were things done by Ethan as precursors to this attack, it is all the more egregious. Such a cry for attention and help!

 

[otto]

I am talking about the letter that was sent to parents and students in November saying they (the school) was aware of the rumors, that they had investigated them and found no threats.

If the school sent a letter stating that threats had been investigated and there was nothing to worry about, then they were aware of the threats, as were police.

It sounds like the "no threats" letter was unrelated to a shooting threat.

 

[borndem]

I think most mass shooters have some crossed wires to be able to commit an act like this, I think this boy falls into that category too. MOO

Makes me wonder, too, what was "preached" and shown to him at home. A lot of little boys try to be like daddy -- playing some kind of sports, watching football, golf, playing the guitar/drums/trumpet/piano, etc., chess, tennis, drawing, lifting weights, going to work, cooking, fixing the car, etc., etc. Maybe Ethan liked to play with guns because his dad did...

 

[otto]

I do wonder about the other incidents, ie the deer head being left at the school. Was that Ethan’s doing? It would seem so, from his social media reference to it (now pulled).

if there were things done by Ethan as precursors to this attack, it is all the more egregious. Such a cry for attention and help!

Where would the 15 year old get a deer head?

"He also downplayed the significance of an incident in early November when a deer head was thrown off the school roof, which he said was "absolutely unrelated" to the shooting. The vandalism prompted school administrators to post two letters to parents on the school's website this month, saying they were responding to rumours of a threat against the school but had found none."
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-1.6268331

 

[ReadySet]

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack ..."

This does not mean that there were rumors. It says LE was aware of ALLEGATIONS of rumors. No parents or students have said they contacted the school about threats of a shooting.

He's a child in the eyes of the school, an adult in the eyes of the law. A drawing he made of the shooting was reported by a teacher and so little was done by school authorities.

It's unfortunate that more was not done, when so much was known.

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack ..."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-1.6268331

At age 15, the question of whether he can be rehabilitated matters. If the goal is to be punitive, to treat him as a throw away person, that's harsh.

 

[Arkay]

@otto

Of course we are all entitled to our opinions here. You've posted that Michigan gun law several times, trying to make your point that Michigan does not require guns to be locked up; instead, it’s only a recommendation.

However—-

There are four corpses who, a few days ago, were children.

There are more children hospitalized with a variety of wounds.

There are hundreds of children who likely will experience trauma and PTSD for all their lives.

This is the germane issue. How did children become corpses? A simple formula:

Ethan Crumbley + loaded gun = dead children.

IMO those Michigan gun safety laws are very ambiguous. It’s illegal to allow a minor to own a gun. It’s illegal to allow a minor to obtain unsupervised access to a gun. Yet it’s not mandatory, only recommended, to safely store a gun so a child cannot access it.

Well then IMO the parents should have slept with the gun under their pillows, or taken it upon themselves to lock the gun up, or whatever else it would take to keep it away from Ethan, because this dreadful outcome shows they did not perform their duty of care as parents.

And there is no doubt this gun was meant for Ethan to own. The mother said so and Ethan has social media with that gun in his hands. That’s illegal and the parents didn’t care. So we get the outcome that we got.

Ethan did this, but he was allowed to.

I’ll never get over Ethan at the barricaded classroom door, telling the children inside that he was from the sheriff’s office and they were safe to come out. This is trickery on the most egregious level. And I know the parents don’t care because they ran away and left him to deal with the consequences alone.

Somehow a path was greased to enable Ethan to kill. Laws, Michigan laws, were broken.

Your opinion is very clear and you are entitled to it. This is all my opinion.

 

[Doghairrules]

The incident earlier in November was vandalisim that LE has said had no connection to this one.

That not how I read it:

Oxford High School addressed 'rumors' that 'created some concern' weeks before shooting

According to the letter from the school, "student interpretations of social media posts and false information have exacerbated the overall concern."

The district said it had investigated each concern shared by parents and students and found that there were no threats to students or buildings.

 

[Doghairrules]

If the school sent a letter stating that threats had been investigated and there was nothing to worry about, then they were aware of the threats, as were police.

It sounds like the "no threats" letter was unrelated to a shooting threat.

I absolutely agree that the school has some liability here as well. But I also believe and agree with the charges brought against the parents.

 

[mommylicious]

I do wonder about the other incidents, ie the deer head being left at the school. Was that Ethan’s doing? It would seem so, from his social media reference to it (now pulled).

if there were things done by Ethan as precursors to this attack, it is all the more egregious. Such a cry for attention and help!

Unrelated. The 12th grade student was identified by the school and the situation was handled.