GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

[cottonweaver]

Ugh at the questions. Incl the responsibility one.

' Do you think parents should know everything their children do, and, if their kids mess up, should the parent be held responsible?'

She's pushing two ' logical fallacies' combined. ( The 'straw man' and the 'slippery slope')

LFs typically used by politicians as rhetorical techniques but on other topics unrelated to this case. ( Misleading but persuasive)
Shannon Smith used a ton of them ('Red Herring' , 'gish gallop', ostrich/idiot defense) Prosecution likely used some too.

Some have said that Smith also came close to ' jury nullification' too. IDK, not a lawyer.

 

[cottonweaver]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/oxford-school-shooting-ethan-crumbley-parents.html

A special antipathy is reserved for Jehn. In town, people speak of her as not maternal, “a ballbuster,” absent at home. On private Facebook pages, Jehn is depicted as “the one pulling the strings, wearing the pants, the mean one,” says Lori Bourgeau, who is on the Oxford Village council.

Jehn and James would fight in the backyard, yelling so loudly that passersby could hear. Later, in court, a co-worker said Jehn’s phone arguments with James were audible through her closed office door.

James was often home with Ethan, and during the day, Jehn would frequently check in with them, asking about homework, meals, and chores. “I think your dad is sleeping,” Jehn wrote to Ethan at lunchtime on March 6.

snipped & bolded

Sounds like this was morphed into a defense that JC was ' hyper-vigilant' and then morphed into the ludicrous claim that she was a ' helicopter parent' ( Cannot see anybody who has any sincerity will buy that and not even the most sympathetic juror but again, this is something that the Prosecution could have handled more effectively)

 

[cottonweaver]

Two things I don't get.

Why didn't the prosecutors call the mother of EC's only friend to testify?
If anyone knew the run-down and concerning behavior EC was showing I would think it would have been this woman that JC told.

snipped
Must've been in one of the motions in limine?
Or, maybe JC rarely had conversations with the mother? ( Just the one where JC was told that the friend was being hospitalised)

Or the mother testifying leads to her son being identified?

All I can recall from the trial was that whenever the ' friend' was mentioned, state said that the friend's ID must be protected. Still vulnerable, doesn't want to have his name out there in the media?
If that's the case I still don't understand how Smith twice got away with using the friend's first name to the jury. ( Arguably, even just releasing forename assists with his identification because if you're a local viewer....)

 

[DFWNF]

dbm

 

[BeachSky]

Jennifer Crumbley's parenting of shooter son picked apart during closing arguments

Crumbley, 45, is facing four counts of involuntary manslaughter in the deaths of four students at Oxford High School killed by her son, Ethan, in 2021.

www.nbcnews.com

Prosecutors played her phone calls from the Oakland County Jail in which she asked her father to set up a go fund to pay for the boarding of her horses and to Google how many calories are in a bologna sandwich and other food.

 

[BrownRice]

I think she knew he was a lose cannon so yes, anything he pulled off outside the home would definitely interrupt her daily plans and may cost her money to boot.

At the end of the day, he was an inconvenience to her. Just like his father. So she chose to redirect her attention elsewhere. Fine, I guess, for your marriage. But that plan didn’t exactly work for the kid crying out for help.

IMO, dad definitely has the benefit of being tried after mom. Defense can comb thru mom’s trial to pick apart what worked and what didn’t. Obviously he bought the gun for EC, but I bet the jury may look more kindly upon him for the other things. Generally, it seems like moms are held to a higher standard of ensuring kids’ emotional needs are met and appropriate parental bonding has occurred.

 

[BrownRice]

UGH, that this defendant with this lawyer might actually walk free next week.

Regardless of the outcome, I feel this trial will be referred to for many years. Apparently as a nation, we don’t care enough about school shootings to literally do anything to curb them. Will the trend be to hold parents accountable?

 

[BrownRice]

Run away and go where? He had no friends. He had been neglected and marginalized the majority of his life. His mental health issues greatly affected his mind - he was so disturbed and desperate per the Miller hearing psychologist. This wasn’t a young man who was rational or resourceful to make constructive decisions. This case is just awful and heartbreaking in so many ways. IMO

Such a great and sad post. Obviously, the first victims in this tragedy are the deceased children and their families. I also find EC a victim. He asked for help. He begged for help. In his damaged and darkened mind, he exploded. Nobody would listen to him or pay any attention to him. Until now. Mom and dad, do you hear me now? He may have a better life in prison than he had at home. Who knows.

Even if JC is convicted (I am not convinced she will be), it probably won’t be for life, so at some point she will be free ( physically…can’t imagine mentally). Will she visit her son?

 

[MrsWatson]

I wish the prosecution would have followed up on the many discrepancies and contradictions Jennifer made while testifying under oath.

One example: When she said she took away Ethan's gun then said, oh, I mean we took away the shooting range. Why wasn't that followed up with, which dates or plans for the shooting range did you cancel? How long was the shooting range off limits? Where was the gun stored after this? Did Ethan know where it was?

About the gun lock: Why did it look like the gun lock hadn't been used at all, looked brand new? Of course, she transferred all responsibility for the storage of the gun to James. No way to refute that. But that doesn't negate the fact that she lived in that house, too. You have a dangerous weapon in your house and you choose to not have a clue? I don't believe that.

I also don't believe a lot of what she said in general, though. I don't care that she posted a bunch of Happy Family FB and Instagram posts. So what? Proves nothing except she has a camera phone and social media accounts.

As far as sentencing, if she is found guilty, I think she will be sentenced to a median sentence, 7-8 years. I do think the judge has some compassion for her. I find MI courts tend to follow sentencing guidelines fairly consistently. If your crime calls for ten years, you will likely get sentenced to ten years or close to it. But I do think because the judge has some compassion, it won't be the full 15 years for each count she could get. I would be shocked if she got some type of time served or home confinement. That would be a slap in the face to the victims, and to the entire community. Four lives were lost and if she would have paid more attention to her kid instead of her horse or her boyfriend or Adult Friend Finder, or made sure the gun was stored where he couldn't get to it, maybe it wouldn't have happened.

MOO

 

[Izzylizzy]

I highly recommend watching Youtube's "The Lawyer You Know".
"Jennifer Crumbley trial"..."is her lawyer as bad"

Lawyer goes over emotional behavior of Smith.
He gets chat comments from viewers throughout and answers them, most comments are negative about Smith and some for the judge who appears at times to favor defense.

He shows clips.

 

[DFWNF]

Regardless of the outcome, I feel this trial will be referred to for many years. Apparently as a nation, we don’t care enough about school shootings to literally do anything to curb them. Will the trend be to hold parents accountable?

Agree and I sure hope so

 

[LMDlong]

Does anyone know if after the shooter was arrested was a drug test performed?
I searched online but was unable to find an answer.
The reason for my question is , a paradoxical reaction causes the opposite reaction and can be very dangerous.
I personally know this because I have this with Xanax and other medications in that class.
We have heard and read that JC gave him melatonin in the past.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Does anyone know if after the shooter was arrested was a drug test performed?
I searched online but was unable to find an answer.
The reason for my question is , a paradoxical reaction causes the opposite reaction and can be very dangerous.
I personally know this because I have this with Xanax and other medications in that class.
We have heard and read that JC gave him melatonin in the past.

I had asked the same question about EC and was a toxicity done and also found nothing from looking.
As far as the Xanax and Melatonin text between JC and James he asked if she gave him a Xanax the night before and she answered ,
"no Melatonin" and half a pill was mentioned but I forget who said it.
Maybe James didn't want JC to give EC any of her Xanax so she lied and said she didn't?
I question JC's answer to James because in EC's journal he tells his friend that his mom gave him half a Xanax and half a Melatolin pill doesn't seem kile it would make EC have a black-out from the night before.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Another thing.
EC's braces.
Smith used his getting them as proof the parents cared about his dental issues.
Yet due to the parents being negligent in making EC do the daily dental care needed of his mouth he developed 13 cavities and the braces had to be removed to for his teeth to be worked on.

Making EC do his daily teeth/braces regime took too much effort for either parent.
They permitted his teeth to become as toxic as his bedroom.

 

[LMDlong]

I had asked the same question about EC and was a toxicity done and also found nothing from looking.
As far as the Xanax and Melatonin text between JC and James he asked if she gave him a Xanax the night before and she answered ,
"no Melatonin" and half a pill was mentioned but I forget who said it.
Maybe James didn't want JC to give EC any of her Xanax so she lied and said she didn't?
I question JC's answer to James because in EC's journal he tells his friend that his mom gave him half a Xanax and half a Melatolin pill doesn't seem kile it would make EC have a black-out from the night before.

So then according to EC , JC in the past had medicated her son off and on (very dangerous) .
I never head anything about JC having any kind of medical training.
I really hope the jury paid attention to this .

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

So then according to EC , JC in the past had medicated her son off and on (very dangerous) .
I never head anything about JC having any kind of medical training.
I really hope the jury paid attention to this .

If Mother didn't think there was anything wrong with her son and didn't think he needed to see a psychiatrist, why was she giving him medications that were not prescribed for him? The fact that the parents were giving Ethan Xanax occasionally suggests to me that they knew he had some mental health issues and didn't want to address his problems properly by getting him help outside the home. JMO

 

[LMDlong]

So then according to EC , JC in the past had medicated her son off and on (very dangerous) .
I never head anything about JC having any kind of medical training.
I really hope the jury paid attention to this .

Some people with mental issues can not take certain medications, but JC believes in what she did as a parent. Rather than getting EC some help.

 

[Sundog]

Generally, it seems like moms are held to a higher standard of ensuring kids’ emotional needs are met and appropriate parental bonding has occurred.

<RSBM>

There is a lot of research on "mother blame," including in the legal system. Lots of cultural, economic and social biases toward mothers when there are problems with their teenage children. Many of these stereotypes are likely to play into the perceptions of some members of the jury. Hopefully, some will be aware of these biases and just look at the facts of the case and not all the unrelated accusations made by the media hype and even the hype of the D.A. since the beginning of this case.

 

[LMDlong]

If Mother didn't think there was anything wrong with her son and didn't think he needed to see a psychiatrist, why was she giving him medications that were not prescribed for him? The fact that the parents were giving Ethan Xanax occasionally suggests to me that they knew he had some mental health issues and didn't want to address his problems properly by getting him help outside the home. JMO

Exactly. I pray the juror considers that fact during their deliberations.

 

[Sundog]

Jennifer Crumbley's parenting of shooter son picked apart during closing arguments

Crumbley, 45, is facing four counts of involuntary manslaughter in the deaths of four students at Oxford High School killed by her son, Ethan, in 2021.

www.nbcnews.com

Prosecutors played her phone calls from the Oakland County Jail in which she asked her father to set up a go fund to pay for the boarding of her horses and to Google how many calories are in a bologna sandwich and other food.

Why would the prosecution play her phone call to her dad about calorie issues related to jailhouse food offerings? Sounds amazingly petty to me.