GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[GRT]

For those who’ve followed this case from the very beginning (including EC’s guilty plea), why was EC not called to testify? The jurors wonder, and so do I. Was it a legal reason or just judgment by prosecution and defense?

I have the same question.

It seems odd that neither the prosecution nor the defense called him to testify. He could have given valuable insight about his mental health, how he felt, whether he appealed to his parents or a school counselor for help, etc.

But his claiming demons were in the house strikes me a kid making stuff up, which many kids do. Trying to get attention. Trying to be funny.

I would not have put that down to hallucinations. I don't think anyone--even the neighbors--were too concerned.

 

[Boodles]

For me, what EC may of done would not matter.

Rather, I would find her guilty simply because she ignored a whole string of blatant warning signs that her son was an active danger, yet still facilitated his access to weapons.

What puts me over the edge to "guilty" is the sheer number of warning signs. In short, this was not a bad parenting issue of: Left a weapon unsecured. Then it was stolen by another teenager visiting the house.... .

If EC had not had access to the gun provided to him from the home, had been receiving mental health care, had not been neglected, had been taken home from school on November 30, etc., there probably wouldn’t be gross negligence, thus no manslaughter charge against JC, even if he had somehow obtained a gun and committed murder. But I doubt he would have committed murder had he not been so neglected. The manner in which (I perceive) they treated him is so cruel. I won’t go so far as to say it was like torture, but very cruel.

 

[Sundog]

I have to agree that the jurors need to be very concerned about the precedent this case will set for parents. And I believe it is almost guaranteed this case will set a precedent to use this type of charge for other acts besides school shooters. JMO

Will parents be charged now with negiligence if their teenage child commits suicide? Or just if s/he murders others? How would factual and proximate factors play into the suicide of a child? What if your daughter had anorexia or depression? Is that factual? And then she killed herself after some depression the days before? But she hid her anorexia for some time. Would the parents be sentenced to involuntary manslaughter for the death of their son or daughter?

 

[GRT]

But not all psychopaths commit violent criminal offences, not at all.

I agree, but that's partially why I don't think JC could have predicted that EC would do what he did.

 

[Sundog]

Actually, if Ethan rode a bus to and from school, pick-up and drop-off times are very precise. School bus schedules are posted on the school district's website with the exact times and location that the bus will pick students up in the morning and drop them off in the afternoon. DH and I live on the main street into our subdivision and, if we're in the front of the house where we can view the street, we know the exact times that the high school, middle school, or elementary buses will pass our house in the afternoon. We're usually still asleep when the high school and middle school buses pick up in the morning, but we sometimes catch the elementary bus.

Same here where I live in Ohio. Very precise pick up and drop off times.

 

[Boodles]

Regarding the storing of the gun, I don't think that locking a gun was legally required in Michigan at the time of the shooting. I may be wrong about this, but IIRC, that is the case.

Also, IIRC, I think it was established at JC's trial that James C. was the parent who failed to secure the gun, not JC.

Was it established that James did not secure the gun? Or is that just what JC said? My personal belief is that the gun was not kept secured at all. I think JC lied significantly during her testimony. I don’t see how the jurors couldn’t have noticed her contradictions.

 

[Weki]

Will parents be charged now with negiligence if their teenage child commits suicide? Or just if s/he murders others? How would factual and proximate factors play into the suicide of a child? What if your daughter had anorexia or depression? Is that factual? And then she killed herself after some depression the days before? But she hid her anorexia for some time. Would the parents be sentenced to involuntary manslaughter for the death of their son or daughter?

Exactly! I can’t imagine how jurors can completely keep out of their deliberation these types of questions.

JMO

 

[legalmomma]

Here's a look at the new Michigan gun laws taking effect in February

Today is the first day of 2024 and officially in just more than a month, there will be a change with the current gun laws that are in place right now.

www.wxyz.com

(WXYZ) — Today is the first day of 2024 and officially in just more than a month, there will be a change with the current gun laws that are in place right now.
These changes stem from recent mass shootings in Michigan: one at Oxford High School in 2021 where four students died and others were injured, and last year, at Michigan State University, where three students lost their lives and another five students were injured.
Governor Gretchen Whitmer signed these laws last year aiming to reduce gun violence.

Here's a look at some of the new laws surrounding firearms that go into effect on February 13:
First up is Michigan's new gun storage law. This new law aims to improve safe storage of firearms.
How does this law impact you as a gun owner?
If you're a firearm owner, you must lock your guns in the presence of anyone under the age of 18.

If a minor obtains a gun because it was not stored properly, you the owner could face 93 days in jail.

If a minor obtains a gun and hurts someone with it, a person could be found guilty of a felony punishable of up to 5 years in jail.

And if a minor uses that unsecured firearm and kills someone with that unsecured firearm, the owner of that weapon could be charged with a felony and face a 15 year prison sentence.
Fines for any violation range from $500 to $5,000.

(more)

 

[BrownRice]

I have the same question.

It seems odd that neither the prosecution nor the defense called him to testify. He could have given valuable insight about his mental health, how he felt, whether he appealed to his parents or a school counselor for help, etc.

But his claiming demons were in the house strikes me a kid making stuff up, which many kids do. Trying to get attention. Trying to be funny.

I would not have put that down to hallucinations. I don't think anyone--even the neighbors--were too concerned.

I believe it came up. Because he would have to invoke his 5th amendment rights due to future appeals.

 

[LMDlong]

Will parents be charged now with negiligence if their teenage child commits suicide? Or just if s/he murders others? How would factual and proximate factors play into the suicide of a child? What if your daughter had anorexia or depression? Is that factual? And then she killed herself after some depression the days before? But she hid her anorexia for some time. Would the parents be sentenced to involuntary manslaughter for the death of their son or daughter?

If there are journals and texts that the child asked for help but parents played it off then IMO the should be charged with Negilgence.

 

[Walela]

Such a polarizing case. Failure to act or an act of failure seems to be the conundrum. I am not surprised that even when presented with evidence that her son's thinking was skewed toward bodily harm, she walked out of that meeting without him in tow or even a goodbye hug. Only when his world imploded bringing death and destruction and it was far too late did she inquire if he was alright. She seems surprised that he shot up the school but, IMO only, seemed more surprised that he did not kill himself. The words "my world is dead" on the math paper are haunting.

always MOO

 

[Sundog]

Another big mistake I forget to add not locking the gun up nor changing the code to the safe . Jmo

But was that required by law in Michigan? I thought it wasn't required by law at the time of the shootings.

 

[Weki]

Not securing the gun or taking your son to a shooting range were not illegal at the time. Letting your 15 yo touch a gun was also not illegal. They may have changed the laws now. The ATF guy testified to that.

 

[GRT]

I believe it came up. Because he would have to invoke his 5th amendment rights due to future appeals.

Okay thanks, I hadn't heard that. I don't know why he would get to appeal when he pleaded to his charges. I thought that was in lieu of getting to appeal, but IANAL by a long shot.

 

[cottonweaver]

Will parents be charged now with negiligence if their teenage child commits suicide? Or just if s/he murders others? How would factual and proximate factors play into the suicide of a child? What if your daughter had anorexia or depression? Is that factual? And then she killed herself after some depression the days before? But she hid her anorexia for some time. Would the parents be sentenced to involuntary manslaughter for the death of their son or daughter?

It doesn't hinge on Crumbleys' charges or this case

example 2003 ( nothing to do with guns so less newsworthy? different charges. awfully sad case)
Mother convicted of contributing to suicide of her 12-year-old son - Maryland Daily Record

overturned on appeal 2006 Mother’s conviction in son’s suicide overturned

 

[LMDlong]

But was that required by law in Michigan? I thought it wasn't required by law at the time of the shootings.

At the time it was required. It was common sense. I grew up with 9 brothers and sisters, over 30 foster children in all, my father owned guns but common sense was used.
My own children grew up with guns in our home which I still have and I have 5 grandchildren . I have a wooden locked gun cabinet with a glass front. The guns have a chain running through each gun to the next . Ammo is stored away from guns,

 

[Boodles]

'
Jennifer Crumbley's manslaughter trial continued on Friday with Judge Cheryl Matthews saying she will prohibit the defense from calling her son, school shooter Ethan Crumbley, to the stand because he intends to plead the Fifth Amendment on the stand.

Ethan Crumbley's attorneys have also said they have asserted privilege over his medical records, keeping them from being admitted as evidence.'

Ethan Crumbley, who intends to plead the Fifth, will not take the stand in his mother's trial

Jennifer Crumbley's son, school shooter Ethan Crumbley, will not take the stand in his mother's trial because he intends to plead the Fifth, the judge said.

abcnews.go.com

better link
The judge presiding over the trial of Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbley’s mother said she would not allow the gunman to testify if he invokes his Fifth Amendment right, as his attorneys have previously indicated he would.
The Fifth Amendment protects a person from being “compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself.” The amendment is often invoked to avoid answering specific questions during testimony.
“It’s not that I’m saying you can’t call him as a witness, but two of his attorneys have said in no uncertain terms that he’s taking the Fifth,” Judge Cheryl Matthews told defense attorney Shannon Smith in court Friday.
“I am going to prohibit you from putting any witness on the stand who takes the Fifth in front of the jury, that is strictly prohibited,” the judge said.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/26/us/ethan-crumbley-fifth-amendment-testimony/index.html

Thank you for this!!

I found this: Michigan shooter Ethan Crumbley may refuse to testify as first of parents' trials opens with jury selection
"Given Ethan Crumbley's ongoing appeal and the substantial overlap in the subject matter in these three cases, we will advise Ethan to invoke his right to remain silent, should he be called to testify in either pending trial," his lawyers with the State Appellate Defender's Office wrote to Oakland County Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews.

However, no appeal has been filed, and his lawyers said in a statement that he is entitled to an appellate lawyer’s advice but that “beyond that, it is premature to speculate whether he will even choose to appeal.”

 

[cottonweaver]

Thank you for this!!

I found this: Michigan shooter Ethan Crumbley may refuse to testify as first of parents' trials opens with jury selection
"Given Ethan Crumbley's ongoing appeal and the substantial overlap in the subject matter in these three cases, we will advise Ethan to invoke his right to remain silent, should he be called to testify in either pending trial," his lawyers with the State Appellate Defender's Office wrote to Oakland County Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews.

However, no appeal has been filed, and his lawyers said in a statement that he is entitled to an appellate lawyer’s advice but that “beyond that, it is premature to speculate whether he will even choose to appeal.”

It's all a defense game imo
Also Jennifer's attorney and James' attorney were from the same firm. I presume they still are.

 

[Sundog]

this is the list of chosen alternates -

seats 15, 17, 10, 4, 9 (Leaving a jury of 6 men, 6 women)

whereas this is the list media gave pre trial:

' The panel of 12 jurors and five alternates includes 10 women and seven men, most of them parents...'

• Juror 1: White female. Works in human resources. Has two adult children. Her father was a hunter. “I gave up watching all the news in all forms six years ago. I’m pretty uninformed.” Regarding her father’s guns, “I know my dad’s guns were always locked. It was not for the children.”
• Juror 2: White, 26-year-old married male. Says he grew up in a strict, Christian home. He works in sales for the mortgage industry. He took hunter safety classes when he was 16, but is not an avid hunter. His father has a gun and has a concealed-carry permit. The juror said he doesn’t have strong opinions on guns. He doesn’t have cable TV, tries to stay away from social media and despises TikTok.
• Juror 3: White female hairstylist, says she’s familiar with the case, has no issues with guns and can be impartial.
• Juror 4: White female engineer, husband is a lawyer. She said she can be fair and impartial and that “it’s not a good-bad parent decision” the jury will be making in this case, stating: “That’s not why we’re here.” She did note, however, that she no longer goes to movie theaters or shopping malls following a mass shooting in Colorado that shook her sense of security.
• Juror 5: White female, married. Has guns in the house and says they “are locked up.” She has two grown children and recalls taking gun safety classes as a family when the kids were in elementary school. She works for a bank and her husband is in advertising. “I feel like I can be fair,” she said.
• Juror 6: White female. Married and retired compliance specialist. Her husband is a retired meat market owner and her daughter a special education teacher. She was on a jury many years ago, but remembers little to nothing about the case.
• Juror 7: White male doctor who said, “I’ve seen a lot of gun violence.” Owns multiple guns that he stores in a safe. He calls himself a “very strong proponent” of the Second Amendment and goes to shooting ranges about once a month, maybe every two months. He has lost two loved ones to suicide by a gun.
• Juror 8: White male. Automotive engineer with twin teenagers. He has a collector’s gun that belonged to a relative who served in a war. He remembers being a kid and learning how to shoot a shotgun, though he is not into guns as an adult, beyond owning his collector’s item.
• Juror 9: White female. First-grade teacher, married with two grown children and one older teenager. “I don’t have guns, but I understand that it’s legal,” she said.
• Juror 10: White male, works in vehicle logistics. He owns several guns and remembers tagging along with his dad to gun ranges when he was 10. His best friend is a police officer in a jail and his girlfriend is a personal trainer.
• Juror 11: Single white female. No children. She has a gun for personal protection, worked 16 years as a police officer for a university. Now she handles parking tickets.
• Juror 12: Black male, Single. No children. Works as a manager in sales. His father had a gun and taught him about gun safety.
• Juror 13: Single white male who works as a powertrain engineer. He doesn’t own any guns, but went to a shooting range with his girlfriend over the last year for fun. He grew up in Nebraska. He says his engineering brain makes him a good juror as he will be able to carefully analyze evidence as it applies to the charges. Defense attorney Shannon Smith joked with him that “We don’t let engineers sit on juries” because they typically see the world in black and white. “But there’s a lot of gray space in this case,” Smith said. The juror said he understood and that he could be fair.
• Juror 14: White male parole officer who says he’s “fair to a fault” and sees “success stories” in his work involving prisoners who turn their lives around. He’s married, has two older teenagers. Has guns at home, keeps them in a storage unit. His kids are not interested in guns. Before his 20-year career in law enforcement, he worked for the government’s Medicaid and food stamp programs.
• Juror 15: Single white female who works as an account manager for rental properties. Lives with her parents.
• Juror 16: White married female with an infant son. Works in billing for university students. She is originally from the Upper Peninsula and used to be a hunter. She remembers getting days off from school as a kid during hunting season, but she no longer hunts. Her sister was a target of a school shooting that was stopped.
• Juror 17: White female, married with two school-age children and works in veterinary medicine. “When I think about this case, I feel rage,” she said of the Oxford shooting. She grew up with guns. Her dad hunted and her sister is a competitive shooter, though she said her husband is “very anti-guns” and “just doesn’t want them in our house.”

the link for that (Old link doesn't say whether media's original list corresponds with the judge's seating list today but maybe somebody on WS knows)
In case they do correspond, have italicised the alternates.
Jennifer Crumbley's jury includes several gun owners, mostly women

Juror #13 -
He says his engineering brain makes him a good juror as he will be able to carefully analyze evidence as it applies to the charges. Defense attorney Shannon Smith joked with him that “We don’t let engineers sit on juries” because they typically see the world in black and white. “But there’s a lot of gray space in this case,” Smith said. The juror said he understood and that he could be fair.

Good point made by SS. "there's a lot of gray space in this case." I think that the jury finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is highly unlikely. As SS stated to juror #13, it is not a black and white case, there is a lot of gray area (my paraphrase of the above).

 

[Sundog]

this is the list of chosen alternates -

seats 15, 17, 10, 4, 9 (Leaving a jury of 6 men, 6 women)

whereas this is the list media gave pre trial:

' The panel of 12 jurors and five alternates includes 10 women and seven men, most of them parents...'

• Juror 1: White female. Works in human resources. Has two adult children. Her father was a hunter. “I gave up watching all the news in all forms six years ago. I’m pretty uninformed.” Regarding her father’s guns, “I know my dad’s guns were always locked. It was not for the children.”
• Juror 2: White, 26-year-old married male. Says he grew up in a strict, Christian home. He works in sales for the mortgage industry. He took hunter safety classes when he was 16, but is not an avid hunter. His father has a gun and has a concealed-carry permit. The juror said he doesn’t have strong opinions on guns. He doesn’t have cable TV, tries to stay away from social media and despises TikTok.
• Juror 3: White female hairstylist, says she’s familiar with the case, has no issues with guns and can be impartial.
• Juror 4: White female engineer, husband is a lawyer. She said she can be fair and impartial and that “it’s not a good-bad parent decision” the jury will be making in this case, stating: “That’s not why we’re here.” She did note, however, that she no longer goes to movie theaters or shopping malls following a mass shooting in Colorado that shook her sense of security.
• Juror 5: White female, married. Has guns in the house and says they “are locked up.” She has two grown children and recalls taking gun safety classes as a family when the kids were in elementary school. She works for a bank and her husband is in advertising. “I feel like I can be fair,” she said.
• Juror 6: White female. Married and retired compliance specialist. Her husband is a retired meat market owner and her daughter a special education teacher. She was on a jury many years ago, but remembers little to nothing about the case.
• Juror 7: White male doctor who said, “I’ve seen a lot of gun violence.” Owns multiple guns that he stores in a safe. He calls himself a “very strong proponent” of the Second Amendment and goes to shooting ranges about once a month, maybe every two months. He has lost two loved ones to suicide by a gun.
• Juror 8: White male. Automotive engineer with twin teenagers. He has a collector’s gun that belonged to a relative who served in a war. He remembers being a kid and learning how to shoot a shotgun, though he is not into guns as an adult, beyond owning his collector’s item.
• Juror 9: White female. First-grade teacher, married with two grown children and one older teenager. “I don’t have guns, but I understand that it’s legal,” she said.
• Juror 10: White male, works in vehicle logistics. He owns several guns and remembers tagging along with his dad to gun ranges when he was 10. His best friend is a police officer in a jail and his girlfriend is a personal trainer.
• Juror 11: Single white female. No children. She has a gun for personal protection, worked 16 years as a police officer for a university. Now she handles parking tickets.
• Juror 12: Black male, Single. No children. Works as a manager in sales. His father had a gun and taught him about gun safety.
• Juror 13: Single white male who works as a powertrain engineer. He doesn’t own any guns, but went to a shooting range with his girlfriend over the last year for fun. He grew up in Nebraska. He says his engineering brain makes him a good juror as he will be able to carefully analyze evidence as it applies to the charges. Defense attorney Shannon Smith joked with him that “We don’t let engineers sit on juries” because they typically see the world in black and white. “But there’s a lot of gray space in this case,” Smith said. The juror said he understood and that he could be fair.
• Juror 14: White male parole officer who says he’s “fair to a fault” and sees “success stories” in his work involving prisoners who turn their lives around. He’s married, has two older teenagers. Has guns at home, keeps them in a storage unit. His kids are not interested in guns. Before his 20-year career in law enforcement, he worked for the government’s Medicaid and food stamp programs.
• Juror 15: Single white female who works as an account manager for rental properties. Lives with her parents.
• Juror 16: White married female with an infant son. Works in billing for university students. She is originally from the Upper Peninsula and used to be a hunter. She remembers getting days off from school as a kid during hunting season, but she no longer hunts. Her sister was a target of a school shooting that was stopped.
• Juror 17: White female, married with two school-age children and works in veterinary medicine. “When I think about this case, I feel rage,” she said of the Oxford shooting. She grew up with guns. Her dad hunted and her sister is a competitive shooter, though she said her husband is “very anti-guns” and “just doesn’t want them in our house.”

the link for that (Old link doesn't say whether media's original list corresponds with the judge's seating list today but maybe somebody on WS knows)
In case they do correspond, have italicised the alternates.
Jennifer Crumbley's jury includes several gun owners, mostly women

I wonder how the last two jurors ended up being selected. For juror #16, I would think that having a close relative who was at the scene of a mass shooting would disqualify them. Also the juror who said she felt "rage" about this case, juror #17. I hope those two are alternates and not the jurors are currently deliberating.