GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[ChatteringBirds]

Good lord! Throwing lye on your dad! Kinda sounds monstrous to me!

What a lenient sentence! And she isn't even taking responsibility for the horror of what she did.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Jennifer Crumbley, 45, told jurors that it was her husband’s job to keep track of the gun. She also said she saw no signs of mental distress in her son.

“We would talk. We did a lot of things together,” she testified. “I trusted him, and I felt I had an open door. He could come to me about anything.”

The jury of six men and six women includes some gun owners or people who grew up with guns in their home.

In a journal found by police, Ethan Crumbley wrote that his parents wouldn’t listen to his pleas for help.

“I have zero help for my mental problems and it’s causing me to shoot up the … school,” he wrote.

Jury finds Jennifer Crumbley, the Michigan school shooter’s mother, guilty of manslaughter

PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) — A Michigan jury convicted a school shooter’s mother of involuntary manslaughter Tuesday in the killings of four students in 2021, making her the first parent in the U.S. to be…

www.wrbl.com

"she testified,I trusted him"

Which we know from her testimony that was a blatant lie.
JC stated numerous times she was afraid EC would do something "stupid" or "dumb" and text evidence shown that she had tracked him like a hawk .

 

[ChatteringBirds]

OT post DBM.

I think they will listen closely to the poll of the jury. James bought the gun and was also a crappy parent but what else. A lot of the disdain is directed towards the Mom and not the Dad so the prosecution has a harder hill to climb IMHO.

It will depend what is revealed about him. He's been portrayed as more passive in their roles, though, so you may be right.

 

[Izzylizzy]

This is latest start time of trial​

• 10:23 a.m. Tuesday

Tuesday is officially the latest start time for proceedings on the record this trial.

Matthews told the jury to return to the courthouse at 9 a.m. Tuesday, but so far, there has been no action on the record.

Live updates: Jury deliberates fate of Jennifer Crumbley on 9th day of trial (Feb. 6)

A jury is continuing to deliberate whether Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the Oxford High School shooter, is guilty of involuntary manslaughter after seven days of testimony at her trial.

www.clickondetroit.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

Law & Crime
Verdict Watch

 

[cottonweaver]

Jennifer Crumbley, 45, told jurors that it was her husband’s job to keep track of the gun. She also said she saw no signs of mental distress in her son.

“We would talk. We did a lot of things together,” she testified. “I trusted him, and I felt I had an open door. He could come to me about anything.”

The jury of six men and six women includes some gun owners or people who grew up with guns in their home.

In a journal found by police, Ethan Crumbley wrote that his parents wouldn’t listen to his pleas for help.

“I have zero help for my mental problems and it’s causing me to shoot up the … school,” he wrote.

Jury finds Jennifer Crumbley, the Michigan school shooter’s mother, guilty of manslaughter

PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) — A Michigan jury convicted a school shooter’s mother of involuntary manslaughter Tuesday in the killings of four students in 2021, making her the first parent in the U.S. to be…

www.wrbl.com

All of the evidence at trial refutes this self-serving claim. It's in Ethan Crumbley's own words and in JC's own actions and inactions but I can't be bothered to recap it all - too many pieces of evidence which we've all already posted about on WS during the trial days

 

[scoodyboo]

I imagine jurors on either G or NG side would be reluctant to change sides because of the implicaitons of the verdict. They'd rather be hung. In other words, they may not want to be on a jury that finds her not guilty, or not want to be on one that finds her guilty, so they wouldn't be able to be persuaded to switch. moo

 

[cottonweaver]

Good morning trial watchers and justice seekers - I think the fact that they didn’t come out and say they were hung yesterday is a good sign. I wanna say when a jury is going to be hung it’s clear almost right away - within a few hours. JMO

Yes it would look really bad if a holdout juror (or jurors whether NG or G ) said on Day 1 wtte of - I just don't agree
and I refuse to continue testing my opinion by going through the trial evidence and discussing it with you all.
Might happen on Day 2?
I've watched trials where we've been told that happened early and mistrial declared real quick even though jury instructions were that you have to be open-minded

Also just reminded that the Lori Vallow jury took 6 hours over two days and that case was not really politically sensitive or legally complex.

To be a foreperson you'd need the patience of a saint and brilliant social skills to stop people falling out and keep stubborn people engaged rather then dig their heels in.

 

[Sundog]

The appeal has nothing to do with Matthews

Yes, I know that. But judges may not be happy with having higher court judge(s) reverse their case verdicts on appeal - even though it is a jury that makes the decison.

 

[IAMWAN]

I thought parents bought guns for their kids? They have rifles made for children, even pink ones for girls.

It can't be a straw purchase because when a parent buys their kid a gun the parent has to be the one to purchase it. A kid under 18 can't purchase one.

So according to this lawsuit, every parent who buys their under 18 year old their own gun is committing the crime of a straw purchase.

2 Cents

That is a valid point! I did see this when I looked on the ATF website:

"May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)?​

Yes. However, persons less than 18 years of age may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting."


I also wonder if part of the issue could be the fact that EC paid for the gun with his own money? IIRC, in his journal or texts to his friend he talks about finally having enough money to pay for the gun. But IANAL, so I'm going to just defer to the experts on this one!

 

[arielilane]

@alcaprari23

Day 2 Jury Deliberations: Members of the news media pack the hallway outside of the courtroom where Jennifer Crumbley is being tried on four counts of involuntary manslaughter. The delay in reaching a verdict could signal holdouts in the jury pool, unwilling to convict.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1754896481008423293

 

[cottonweaver]

Just looking at alternative charges ( Different case, different state etc)
Reading between the lines looks as if the state didn't think a jury would convict the father on the original charges

November 2023 news link

Highland Park killer's father. ( 7 dead, dozens wounded)

Robert Crimo Jr. had been set to face a bench trial on seven felony counts of reckless conduct but instead pleaded guilty to seven counts of misdemeanor reckless conduct as part of a deal with prosecutors. As part of the deal reached with prosecutors, he will be on probation for two years, serve 60 days in jail and complete 100 hours of community service. He is expected to report to jail to begin serving his sentence on November 15.
Prosecutors said Crimo Jr. was “criminally reckless” when he signed his son’s application for an Illinois Firearm Owners Identification card nearly three years before the massacre in Highland Park. The card is required for gun purchases in Illinois and people under 21 need a guardian to sign the application

Prosecutors said Crimo Jr. was “criminally reckless” when he signed his son’s application for an Illinois Firearm Owners Identification card nearly three years before the massacre in Highland Park. The card is required for gun purchases in Illinois and people under 21 need a guardian to sign the application.
As part of his plea deal, Crimo Jr. has agreed to testify if called at his son’s criminal trial, prosecutors said. The date for that trial has not been set.
In April 2019, the son “attempted to commit suicide by machete,” a police report states and a few months after that the father sponsored his son’s gun license application

Police returned to the home in September 2019, after a family member reported Crimo III said he was going to kill everyone, directing the threat at those in his home, according to a police report. Officers confiscated several knives from Crimo III’s closet. His father retrieved them from the police station later that day, per the report.
Crimo III bought five guns, including two rifles, after the September visit from police, Chris Covelli, a spokesperson for the Lake County Major Crimes Task Force, previously said. The high-powered rifle Crimo III is accused of using to fire on the parade crowd from a rooftop across the street was purchased legally, police said.
“Parents and guardians are in the best position to decide whether their teenager should have a weapon. They are the first line of defense. In this case, that system failed when Robert Crimo Jr. sponsored his son,” Lake County State’s Attorney Eric Rinehart previously said. “He knew what he knew, and he signed the form anyway.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/06/us/robert-crimo-highland-park-shooting/index.html

IDK if felony counts of reckless conduct would've been applicable in JC's case as an alternative, IANAL

 

[arielilane]

Live updates: Jury deliberates fate of Jennifer Crumbley on 9th day of trial (Feb. 6)

February 6, 2024 at 11:18 AM

 

[Sundog]

I thought parents bought guns for their kids? They have rifles made for children, even pink ones for girls.

It can't be a straw purchase because when a parent buys their kid a gun the parent has to be the one to purchase it. A kid under 18 can't purchase one.

So according to this lawsuit, every parent who buys their under 18 year old their own gun is committing the crime of a straw purchase.

2 Cents

I'm confused by this, too. It is very common practice for parents to by firearms for their children. But maybe there is a place on the federal form where they have to indicate the parent is buyng the gun for a juvenile to use under adult/parental supervision only?

 

[Sundog]

Does anyone know how it was decided that JC's trial would go first, and James' trial would follow? I wonder how they made that decision. Was it made by each of the attorneys who are representing them?

 

[Sundog]

I think they will listen closely to the poll of the jury. James bought the gun and was also a crappy parent but what else. A lot of the disdain is directed towards the Mom and not the Dad so the prosecution has a harder hill to climb IMHO.

"Mom-blame" is a more common legal, sociological and cultural phenomenon.

I don't think the disdain directed toward Jennifer will be similar in James' trial. The D.A. seemed to have a personal vendetta about Jennifer and put every detail of her life under the microscope for the public and jury to see, even when they were not related to the case.

 

[cottonweaver]

Does anyone know how it was decided that JC's trial would go first, and James' trial would follow? I wonder how they made that decision. Was it made by each of the attorneys who are representing them?

IMO there is more direct evidence in Jennifer's case that she was the person who ran the show. ( That's not my bias, it's just that there's a lot of references to her not feeling she could rely on her husband to complete basic responsibilities and also EC seems to mention her more wrt to asking for help)

this was later spun into her being ' helicopter' parent ( IMO, no evidence of that)

PS I agree that Keast came across badly. It's not hard to preface every impeachment with a statement to the jury about why you're raising her affairs, untidy rooms, hobbies etc. IMO he didn't make those things clear to the jurors and you just cannot take for granted that jurors are analysts who can join the dots themselves.

Also I agree re sexism points in that some jurors - who won't realise that the state wanted to try the couple together but the defense did not - might assume that it's mothers on trial when this was a 2 parent household and his prosecution is starting very soon

 

[Sundog]

IMO there is more direct evidence in Jennifer's case that she was the person who ran the show. ( That's not my bias, it's just that there's a lot of references to her not feeling she could rely on her husband to complete basic responsibilities and also EC seems to mention her more wrt to asking for help)

this was later spun into her being ' helicopter' parent ( IMO, no evidence of that)

Jennifer was the bread-winner in the family, as far as I can tell, and she was described as a person who gets things done/very action oriented. Unlike James, it seems, who didn't even have a job and couldn't be counted on to follow through on responsibilities.

With regard to the "helicopter parent" attribution, I agree neither of the parents fit that description, but there is a wide gap between "helicopter parent" and totally negligent parent.

 

[Sundog]

IMO there is more direct evidence in Jennifer's case that she was the person who ran the show. ( That's not my bias, it's just that there's a lot of references to her not feeling she could rely on her husband to complete basic responsibilities and also EC seems to mention her more wrt to asking for help)

this was later spun into her being ' helicopter' parent ( IMO, no evidence of that)

PS I agree that Keast came across badly. It's not hard to preface every impeachment with a statement to the jury about why you're raising her affairs, untidy rooms, hobbies etc. IMO he didn't make those things clear to the jurors and you just cannot take for granted that jurors are analysts who can join the dots themselves.

Also I agree re sexism points in that some jurors - who won't realise that the state wanted to try the couple together but the defense did not - will assume that it's mothers on trial when this was a 2 parent household.

Just read your "PS" to original post and completely agree.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Predicting Verdicts Based on Length of Jury Deliberations​

Some believe short deliberations mean jurors have found the defendant guilty, while longer deliberations mean they are leaning towards acquittal. Despite these theories, trying to predict the length of jury deliberations is generally a futile effort. Consider this:

• A Minnesota jury deliberated a little over 10 hours before convicting Derek Chauvin of second-degree murder, third-degree murder and manslaughter in the death of George Floyd.
• It took a federal jury four days find Paul Manafort guilty of eight counts of financial crimes on an 18-count indictment.
• It took a Texas jury 2 ½ hours to find Eddie Ray Routh guilty of capital murder for the deaths of American Sniper Chris Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield.
• After 35 hours of deliberation over nine days, a California jury acquitted actor Robert Blake of killing his wife, Bonny Lee Bakley.
• A California jury deliberated nine hours before convicting doctor Conrad Murray of unintentional manslaughter in the death of pop star legend, Michael Jackson.
• A Florida jury deliberated 16 ½ hours before acquitting George Zimmerman in the death of Trayvon Martin.
• A California jury deliberated less than four hours before acquitting O.J. Simpson of murder in the deaths of his wife, Nicole, and her friend, Ronald Goldman.
• A Florida jury deliberated less than 11 hours before acquitting Casey Anthony of killing her 2-year-old daughter, Caylee.
• A Pennsylvania jury deliberated more than 20 hours over two days before convicting Jerry Sandusky of sexually assaulting 10 boys.
• It took a California jury seven days to convict Scott Peterson of murder in the death of his wife, Laci, and their unborn son.
• A Texas jury deliberated eight days before acquitting Dallas County Commissioner John Wiley Price of bribery and mail fraud.

It is safe to assume that jury deliberations may take longer in complicated cases with multiple defendants, counts or charges, which will require longer jury instructions. Still, there is no “average” jury deliberation and the time-frame is anyone’s guess.

Can you predict a verdict based on length of jury deliberations? [2024]

Is the length of jury deliberations an accurate predictor of verdicts in criminal trials? Learn more about the length of deliberations and hung juries.

versustexas.com