GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[Izzylizzy]

McDonald said that by James being the only parent out of 1,800 students at Oxford High who called 911 saying that his son may be the shooter is



Foreseeability asks how likely it was that a person could have anticipated the potential or actual results of their actions. This is a question in contract and tort law.

foreseeability | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute​

LII / Legal Information Institute
https://www.law.cornell.edu › Wex






"

 

[Izzylizzy]

James told cops at substation that after finding out about the shooting he called 911 "right away".

James waited 14 mins to call.
James also never said throughout that he didn't know how EC got the gun.

 

[Sundog]

McDonald said that by James being the only parent out of 1,800 students at Oxford High who called 911 saying that his son may be the shooter is



Foreseeability asks how likely it was that a person could have anticipated the potential or actual results of their actions. This is a question in contract and tort law.

foreseeability | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute​

View attachment 490244
LII / Legal Information Institute
https://www.law.cornell.edu › Wex






"

But we're not talking about "foreseeability" here, we are talking about after the fact, IMO.

How many of the 1,800 parents had just had a meeting at the school about their child? Probably just the Crumbleys. After the fact, JC had the terrifying thought that it could be his son and called 911. I don't see how this has to do with "foreseeability."

JMO.

 

[Weki]

Based on the jury forewoman, what convicted Jennifer was that she was the last person with the gun ie she failed to secure the gun. I think the same reasoning will convict James. They are both responsible in that sense. You can’t parse it out and say the father is responsible for this and the mother for that. I think the foreseeability is not limited to whether they knew he would shoot up the school that day or any other day. The question, IMO, is was it foreseeable that not securing the gun in a home with a minor would cause harm to others. Yes that is indeed foreseeable. Given his mental issues, it is foreseeable that he could’ve committed suicide with the gun, just as an example. He just happened to choose homicide.

JMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Prosecution rests case in James Crumbley trial after "chaos" of school shooting shown to jurors

The father of Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley faces four counts of involuntary manslaughter, the same charge on which his wife, Jennifer, was convicted.

www.nbcnews.com

James Crumbley's alleged failure to safely store the gun his teenage son would use to kill four students in a 2021 school shooting was at the core of the prosecution's closing argument Wednesday in the Michigan father's involuntary manslaughter trial.

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald played a frantic 911 call placed by Crumbley after the rampage saying he "raced home" to check on the weapon and she reminded the jury that he told investigators he hid a semi-automatic handgun in an armoire and placed the ammunition underneath jeans in another drawer. Crumbley bought the 9 mm Sig Sauer, which came with a cable lock, four days before the shooting as a present for his then-15-year-old son, Ethan.

"Here's something you never hear him say," McDonald said. "He never says, 'I can't imagine how he got a hold of this gun.' Four kids just died, your son is in custody and not once did he say, 'How did he get the gun?' And you know why he didn't say it? He didn't say it because he already knew."...

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Closing arguments have concluded. Judge now reading jury instructions.

 

[Vaderman]

Closing arguments have concluded. Judge now reading jury instructions.

Wow, this trial seems like it flew by.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

A legal question - did Michigan law at the time of EC's school shooting require firearms to be under lock and key in residential homes? IIRC, that was not law in Michigan. So wouldn't "access" to guns in Michigan homes be the norm at that time?

IMO. Just because something is legal, that doesn't make it normal. ETA: Or necessarily common.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Case now in hands of the jury. Judge drew names of three alternate jurors who will not be in the room with the rest of the jury.

 

[wyome]

A legal question - did Michigan law at the time of EC's school shooting require firearms to be under lock and key in residential homes? IIRC, that was not law in Michigan. So wouldn't "access" to guns in Michigan homes be the norm at that time?

It was not a law in Michigan at the time of the shootings.
This trial is all about bad parenting, which in my opinion is a slippery slope.

 

[Megnut]

Boils down to this IMO:

He'll be found guilty IF they find him (ir)responsible with the gun, allowing easy access to the weapon.

Something to weigh.... had EC commit suicide with that weapon, would his parents have been charged? Would, should...

So reckless to leave a gun so accessible.

Duty of care. To his household. Duty of care for gun ownership.

You leave a gun out, someone commits a crime with your gun, are you 1st degree liable?

Very curious to see how the jury calls it.

 

[wyome]

Based on the jury forewoman, what convicted Jennifer was that she was the last person with the gun ie she failed to secure the gun. I think the same reasoning will convict James. They are both responsible in that sense. You can’t parse it out and say the father is responsible for this and the mother for that. I think the foreseeability is not limited to whether they knew he would shoot up the school that day or any other day. The question, IMO, is was it foreseeable that not securing the gun in a home with a minor would cause harm to others. Yes that is indeed foreseeable. Given his mental issues, it is foreseeable that he could’ve committed suicide with the gun, just as an example. He just happened to choose homicide.

JMO

Was it proven in this trial that his father was aware of EC asking for mental help?
I wasn't able to watch more than an hour of this trail, so I'm genuinely asking.

 

[Weki]

Was it proven in this trial that his father was aware of EC asking for mental help?
I wasn't able to watch more than an hour of this trail, so I'm genuinely asking.

I didn’t watch this one either. I’m assuming the same evidence was used and they didn’t necessarily prove that Jennifer was aware - she denied it on the stand ofc. I think there’s enough circumstantially for the jury to infer that James was aware or he was so self-preoccupied that he neglected his child’s needs. JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

But we're not talking about "foreseeability" here, we are talking about after the fact, IMO.

How many of the 1,800 parents had just had a meeting at the school about their child? Probably just the Crumbleys. After the fact, JC had the terrifying thought that it could be his son and called 911. I don't see how this has to do with "foreseeability."

JMO.

"PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) — A prosecutor urged jurors to convict the father of a Michigan school shooter on Wednesday, saying he ignored the “easiest, most glaring opportunities” to prevent the killing of four students, especially when confronted with his son’s violent classroom drawing.

Instead of taking Ethan Crumbley home, James Crumbley left Oxford High School with his wife and made DoorDash runs, passing near their home during deliveries, prosecutor Karen McDonald said.

He didn’t check the house for a gun similar to one in the drawing until news of the shooting started to spread in the small community. That’s when he frantically called 911 and said the gun was missing — and his 15-year-old son could be the killer.

“There were 1,800 students at Oxford High School,” McDonald said. “There was one parent who suspected their son was a school shooter, and it was James Crumbley. You know what that’s called? That’s called foreseeability.”

Prosecutor tells jury thet Michigan school shooter's dad ignored 'easiest' opportunity to prevent tragedy

A jury of six men and six women left the courtroom for deliberations on Wednesday.

www.pbs.org

 

[wyome]

I didn’t watch this one either. I’m assuming the same evidence was used and they didn’t necessarily prove that Jennifer was aware - she denied it on the stand ofc. I think there’s enough circumstantially for the jury to infer that James was aware or he was so self-preoccupied that he neglected his child’s needs. JMO

I don't think a teen's texts to a friend, regardless of how many (I've read there were thousands EC sent to his best friend) equate to circumstantial evidence for the jury to consider. This is one of the hardest parts for me. Teens create their own worlds and manipulate people and rant and vent and say things that aren't true all the time.

There's not one communication from EC that proves he asked his parents for mental help.
It's all one-sided snippets that EC sent to another teen who was never brought in to verify in court or be subjected to cross even remotely.

EC could have asked for another slice of dessert, and the dad could have told him to "suck it up", and mom laughed. Then told his friend a completely different scenario in regards to how his parents reacted to him. I'm sure he temporarily hated his parents...most due surfacely at this time.

 

[wyome]

The school counselor, who had 10+ years experience dealing with troubled teens, saw no reason to check his backpack or even ask the gun question to the MI parents sitting in the room with the "drawing."

If he didn't want Ethan alone because both parents had to return to work, he could have forced a counsel with him that day. Buddies for the day. He says sent him back to class because didn't want him to be alone. BS! He didn't want EC shadowing, and he certainly didn't want the task to counsel him.

 

[IAMWAN]

I don't think a teen's texts to a friend, regardless of how many (I've read there were thousands EC sent to his best friend) equate to circumstantial evidence for the jury to consider. This is one of the hardest parts for me. Teens create their own worlds and manipulate people and rant and vent and say things that aren't true all the time.

There's not one communication from EC that proves he asked his parents for mental help.
It's all one-sided snippets that EC sent to another teen who was never brought in to verify in court or be subjected to cross even remotely.

EC could have asked for another slice of dessert, and the dad could have told him to "suck it up", and mom laughed. Then told his friend a completely different scenario in regards to how his parents reacted to him. I'm sure he temporarily hated his parents...most due surfacely at this time.

I agree that kids can tell their friends all kinds of things but I will say that for ME, the fact that he wrote about asking for help in his journal which -IMO- he did not plan for anyone to see (until after the shooting), makes me feel as though he is not being dishonest with his friend. Maybe he exaggerated the details but I do find myself believing that he had asked for help before. All MOO, of course.

 

[LNL]

Is the jury still deliberating or have they gone home?

 

[Weki]

I don't think a teen's texts to a friend, regardless of how many (I've read there were thousands EC sent to his best friend) equate to circumstantial evidence for the jury to consider. This is one of the hardest parts for me. Teens create their own worlds and manipulate people and rant and vent and say things that aren't true all the time.

There's not one communication from EC that proves he asked his parents for mental help.
It's all one-sided snippets that EC sent to another teen who was never brought in to verify in court or be subjected to cross even remotely.

EC could have asked for another slice of dessert, and the dad could have told him to "suck it up", and mom laughed. Then told his friend a completely different scenario in regards to how his parents reacted to him. I'm sure he temporarily hated his parents...most due surfacely at this time.

Looking at the totality of the evidence is important. Teens lie. Adults lie. Women lie. Men lie. Sure.

The cry for help on the day of the shooting is part of the totality of the evidence. The school counselor noting EC’s emotional state and being concerned is part of it. We can infer from this that the parents should have noticed as well. The parents walking away coldly is part of the totality of the evidence. From this I can infer that they knew his distress and ignored it because they were self-preoccupied to a negligent degree. The state does not have to prove what James KNEW beyond a reasonable doubt. The state never has to prove what’s in someone’s head.

 

[arielilane]

@cathyrusson

Jury opting to go home. Deliberations will continue tomorrow. #JamesCrumbley


4:42 PM · Mar 13, 2024


They only deliberated 1 hour 20 mins before opting to go home. Likely time to choose a foreperson and get some initial thoughts out and start fresh in the morning. Jennifer's verdict took 10 hours 48 mins.


4:49 PM · Mar 13, 2024