GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[MrsWatson]

Yep- this case is all about the gun- it was obvious it wasn't "hidden" enough because Ethan got his hands on it and the ammunition----the parents acted oblivious to what was going on with their son-taking him to the shooting range! I think this will be a wake up call for parents with this precedent setting case----

The guns they owned weren't registered, either. So, more disregard to law.

https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2024/01/30/new-findings-and-revelations-at-jennifer-crumbley-trial/72405426007/

Brandon noted people have 10 days to register their guns and James was still within the window to register it. His other two guns, however, were bought months prior and were not registered, Brandon said.

 

[Izzylizzy]

You can find people on all sides of the issue. The people I know who were directly affected are in full support of the charges and verdicts. To be transparent, I only know people who had kids that attended the school but were not in the immediate vicinity of the shooting, and I also know someone associated with the prosecution. That person and I have only spoken very superficially about the entire process because of their role and responsibilities but I have seen the toll the trials have taken on them personally. I also know people who feel like the parents have been punished “enough” and think the charges are not appropriate. As in most situations, I think there is a wide range of thoughts and feelings about what should have been done and what was ultimately decided.

From my perspective, the support for the families is ongoing but I don’t know specifics. I think many people both within and outside of the Oxford community are very frustrated with the lack of transparency from the district and the school, especially since the report came out and showed the number of people who declined to participate in the interviews.

I don’t look at the local papers outside of articles directly related to the trials so I can’t say whether or not there have been letters.

No matter what the sentences, I would imagine the Crumbleys would be unable to return to the Oxford community (not that I believe they would want to). They have spent the last 2.5 yrs in jail, sold their home, their horses and obviously no longer have their jobs. I do not feel like I have the right to say when enough is enough when it comes to the punishment or sentencing, as I was not directly impacted by the shooting. I feel like my only role is to stand in support of the families who lost their kids that day, as well as the ones who’s kids are still dealing with the trauma and aftermath of being there. And I don’t know what sentence would be considered sufficient to them.

Thank you so much for your articulate and caring reply.
I do appreciate it and the split in your community seems par for the course when faced with a tragic event.
We've seen this time and time again under different circumstances.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

James Crumbley, father of Ethan Crumbley, found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in son's school shooting

Crumbley was charged in connection with son Ethan's 2021 school shooting at Oxford High School in Michigan. His wife, Jennifer, was convicted on the same charge.

www.nbcnews.com

PONTIAC, Mich. — A jury on Thursday convicted James Crumbley of involuntary manslaughter in connection with his teenage son’s deadly school shooting in 2021, in step with his wife, who was found guilty last month on the same charge.

The jury's decision after about 10 hours of deliberations caps a landmark case that for the first time in the U.S. held the parents of a mass school shooter criminally responsible. James and Jennifer Crumbley’s son, Ethan, who was 15 when he opened fire at Oxford High School in suburban Detroit, pleaded guilty as an adult and was sentenced in December to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

"These were egregious facts in this case. These parents could have prevented this tragedy. It was foreseeable," Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said after the verdict.

"With just the smallest of efforts, they could have prevented this shooting and saved these kids’ lives," she said...

 

[wyome]

This is exactly what this case is about. What should parents think a sad distant teenager would do with a gun? A gun hidden in a closet?

The victims are gone forever. Every day from now on, their families must live without them. This is what can happen when a sad teenager has a gun. We all know this. These parents ignored reality. IMO.

I understand the high emotion. Remember that a good percentage of teens at that school had access to guns and were avid hunters. They posed for school pictures with their guns. Prob a very common way to bond with your child in that part of Michigan.

 

[Vaderman]

Prob a very common way to bond with your child in that part of Michigan.

In light of all that has come out since the shooting, it doesn't sound like the Crumbley's did much bonding with their child.

 

[IAMWAN]

I understand the high emotion. Remember that a good percentage of teens at that school had access to guns and were avid hunters. They posed for school pictures with their guns. Prob a very common way to bond with your child in that part of Michigan.

I think there is a difference between having access to guns to participate in an activity with their friends/family (such as hunting or going target shooting) or posing for pictures (that were very likely taken by adults) and having a child at home who has -as far as we know based on his journals and text messages- expressed the need for some help with mental/emotional issues and not taking measures to restrict their access beyond hiding it in an unlocked drawer. The question we will probably never have an answer to is exactly where the gun was and how he got access to it. Jennifer said that the last time she saw it, it was in the (unlocked) case in her car after they went shooting. James was (according to her testimony) responsible for removing and safely storing the weapon. According to James on the day of the shooting, the weapon was "hidden" in one drawer of the armoire with the bullets "hidden" in a separate drawer.

"Crumbley dropped a bombshell in admitting to his crimes, telling the judge that he gave his father money to buy him the gun that he used in the mass shooting, and that the gun was easily accessible — contradicting his parents' claims that the gun was securely stored." (Ethan Crumbley: I gave my dad money to buy gun used in school shooting)

The purchase of the gun as a gift is not all that uncommon in areas where hunting and shooting are popular hobbies. I don't believe that that fact is the main issue at hand or the reason that these parents were charged. The thing I cannot get past as a parent is not seeing the meeting with the counselor on that day as a giant red flag. EVEN IF the counselor did not think he would harm others. EVEN IF the parents did not think he would harm others. They knew something that no one else knew - that he had access to an unsecured gun. That entire math worksheet should have -IMO- been disturbing enough to warrant taking him out of the building that day. We will never know if he would have just switched his plan to a different day if he had been taken home. We will also never know if maybe that small gesture of care and concern would have started a conversation with his parents (or a mental health professional that they could have taken him to) that would have prevented the entire thing.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Journal entries and a gun lock: 5 key moments from James Crumbley trial

Journal entries made by the Oxford school shooter and the ease of securing a gun cable lock were among moments standing in James Crumbley's trial.

www.detroitnews.com

James Crumbley was convicted of four counts of involuntary manslaughter Thursday in connection with the four students killed by his son at Oxford High School on Nov. 30, 2021, a rare trial against a parent whose child carried out a school mass shooting.

Prosecutors argued Crumbley, 47, was grossly negligent by allowing his son to have access the gun the teen used to kill four classmates and failing secure it, despite warning signs about the teen's deteriorating mental health. His attorney, meanwhile, had insisted Crumbley had no idea what his son was planning and police can't prove he didn't lock up his guns.

A jury convicted Jennifer Crumbley early in February on the same charges, and the cases presented by prosecutors had much overlapping facts and evidence. Both Jennifer and James will be sentenced April 9.

But a few moments still stood out in James' eight-day trial about his behavior leading up to the shooting and in its immediate aftermath, and how quickly a gun lock can be secured...

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Victims’ families join Oakland County prosecutor in press conference after James Crumbley verdict

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald will hold a press conference alongside the families of the victims following the guilty verdict of James Crumbley.

www.clickondetroit.com

OAKLAND COUNTY, Mich. – Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald held a press conference alongside the families of the victims following the guilty verdict of James Crumbley.

Jurors found the father of the Oxford High School shooter guilty Thursday (March 14) on all four counts of involuntary manslaughter for his role in the mass shooting.

McDonald, Metro Detroit leaders, and victims’ families gave remarks at the press conference inside her office at 8 p.m...

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Legal experts on James Crumbley verdict: 'That is a strong message to parents'

Experts said the fact that two separate juries found the Crumbley parents guilty of involuntary manslaughter could set a precedent.

www.detroitnews.com

The jury that returned with a guilty verdict Thursday night in the case against James Crumbley, the father of the Oxford shooter, saw a more dignified trial than that of his wife, who was found guilty by a separate jury, said one legal expert, but the message in both was the same: parental responsibility.

Birmingham criminal defense attorney Wade Fink, who paid attention to both Jennifer and James Crumbley's trials, said the jury's finding Thursday was clear.

“That is a strong message to parents nationwide about their duties as parents,” Fink said in a text message. “There are very much reasonable opinions on both sides of this issue — of whether a parent can be held criminally responsible for their child’s heinous conduct — but the fact is we live in a society where we rely on each other to make sure our children are safe.

“And when you are just so brazenly irresponsible and selfish in your own life, it affects others."...

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Oxford victims' parents after Crumbley verdict: We are 'not done fighting for change'

Gathered at the Oakland County Prosecutor's Office after the guilty verdict against James Crumbley, they said more needs to be done to keep kids safe.

www.detroitnews.com

Parents of all four students killed in the Oxford High School shooting sounded off on the verdict late Thursday, calling it a "monumental decision," but they said more needs to be done when it comes to kids and guns, especially in schools.

Introduced by Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald at a press conference less than hour after a jury found James Crumbley guilty of four counts of involuntary manslaughter, Steve St. Juliana, Craig Shilling, Buck Myre and Nicole Beausoleil each spoke, many feeling emotional in the verdict's aftermath.

St. Juliana, whose daughter Hana died in the shooting, said they are not done fighting for change.

“These are just the beginning steps," he said. "There is so much more that absolutely must be done. It’s crazy the way that our society is currently reacting to this. Our children are dying on a daily basis in mass murders. And we do very little about it. We complain about second amendment rights, or we say there’s not enough money for mental health issues.”...

 

[cujenn81]

I understand the high emotion. Remember that a good percentage of teens at that school had access to guns and were avid hunters. They posed for school pictures with their guns. Prob a very common way to bond with your child in that part of Michigan.

While that may be true, the majority of hunters use rifles and shotguns, not handguns. I can't think of a single reason why a 14-year-old needs to own a 9mm handgun, period. Yes, rifles and shotguns are just as deadly (oftentimes, more so), but they are also harder to hide. Also remember that responsible parents and gunowners, in general, secure the guns in their homes in locked safes or cabinets when they aren't being used -- not only to keep them out of the hands of unsupervised children but also to prevent them from being stolen by criminals.

For me it's not so much about his access to the gun. It's the fact that his parents went out of their way to procure him a gun even though THEY KNEW he was depressed and not mentally stable. And even when presented with the cold hard proof of his suicidal and/or homicidal thoughts involving that gun (i.e., the violent drawings on his math worksheet), THEY DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. They didn't mention the gun, they didn't ask him if he brought the gun to school, they didn't check his backpack, they didn't stop by the house to make sure the gun was safely secured, they refused to take him out of school to see a doctor or be evaluated. They chose to do nothing instead, and that negligence directly resulted in the loss of four lives.

Nothing about their behavior is typical or common among the parents of teenagers or the bonding experience shared while hunting.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Journal entries and a gun lock: 5 key moments from James Crumbley trial

Journal entries made by the Oxford school shooter and the ease of securing a gun cable lock were among moments standing in James Crumbley's trial.

www.detroitnews.com

James Crumbley was convicted of four counts of involuntary manslaughter Thursday in connection with the four students killed by his son at Oxford High School on Nov. 30, 2021, a rare trial against a parent whose child carried out a school mass shooting.

Prosecutors argued Crumbley, 47, was grossly negligent by allowing his son to have access the gun the teen used to kill four classmates and failing secure it, despite warning signs about the teen's deteriorating mental health. His attorney, meanwhile, had insisted Crumbley had no idea what his son was planning and police can't prove he didn't lock up his guns.

A jury convicted Jennifer Crumbley early in February on the same charges, and the cases presented by prosecutors had much overlapping facts and evidence. Both Jennifer and James will be sentenced April 9.

But a few moments still stood out in James' eight-day trial about his behavior leading up to the shooting and in its immediate aftermath, and how quickly a gun lock can be secured...

BBM:

The trigger lock that came with the 9mm handgun was still in its plastic wrappings so how the hell can Lehman claim that LE can't prove that James didn't lock the handgun?
IIRC: James never mentioned to LE in the substation or when intervied at his house on 11-30-21 that he doesn't know how EC got the gun unlocked because he locked it and the key was hidden.
At Jennifer's trial she testified that the key to the trigger lock was in another room in a beer stein.

 

[Odeto BJ]

No steam: We are where we are. Some extended thinking, all JMO.
During the trial the prosecution focused on the shortcomings of the custody and securing of the weapon. At least in JenC's trial the jury largely focused on that too. While there were indicators offered as evidence of EC's mental condition, there were no professionals stating that he suffered from any specific condition because that information was protected by privacy laws as was indicated by EC's appeal lawyers....Those appealing his LWOP sentence, not his guilt. Presumably and IMO some of those appeals are based on EC's mental condition at the time of the incident.
During the trial the school counselor testified that he felt his only remaining alternative was to have EC returned to class for his own safety when the parents refused immediate response to EC's expression of his frustrations and mental condition on the math worksheet. They failed to perceive it as a hazard requiring immediate address.
Immediately after the trial, the prosecutor and the parents of the victims relate concern for the mental health crisis of young people and indicate that the gun was only a tool. If that is the reality the focus on gun laws is misplaced and fallacious as it applies to this case though of course, there are lots of other reasons for managing the accessibility and storage and utilization of guns.
There is a dichotomy there and it does have to do with the development and proliferation of sensitive information. Employers do psych evaluations on employees all the time and receive summaries from those analytic questionnaires. Even job candidates are evaluated prior to an employment offer. An employee or candidate can refuse participation but obviously a candidate has effectively abandoned their candidacy.
An opinion: At some level the school system needs to be equipped and empowered to identify risky or at risk students and by defined means take immediate action to address the hazard. The structure of that is very tricky: Parents are going to be confronted rather than incorporated and it smacks of a police state....But LE has always been in reactive mode, and their methods involve both physical restraint and weaponry. Addressing mental deficiency requires something else.

The means of getting proactive is always going to be intrusive. The key to the mental health crisis may be in the privacy laws. Maybe the 4th amendment needs as much introspection as the 2nd?
OMO and IANAL

 

[Megnut]

This really comes down to the intersection of recklessness and neglect.

Parents buy guns for children. For hunting. For bonding. They can do that. But then comes responsibility. Keeping it secured. Keep it in one trunk. Keep ammo in another trunk. Secure the keys. Or simpler still, keep it in a gun SAFE. Simplest of all, trigger lock. What would that have taken? Twelve seconds? Twelve seconds to save a life? Only had enough time and care to chuck it into a beer stein? That time-saver cost four irreplaceable lives...

Without a gun, EC would have still been angry, hurting, lonely, ill, ignored.

He just wouldn't have been deadly.

Trigger locks save lives.

No one should have time to be that careless.

They have time now. Ironic in a sad way.

Couldn't be troubled to lock up a gun and now they're locked up.

Because they didn't have time for twelve seconds.

 

[Odeto BJ]

BBM:

The trigger lock that came with the 9mm handgun was still in its plastic wrappings so how the hell can Lehman claim that LE can't prove that James didn't lock the handgun?
IIRC: James never mentioned to LE in the substation or when intervied at his house on 11-30-21 that he doesn't know how EC got the gun unlocked because he locked it and the key was hidden.
At Jennifer's trial she testified that the key to the trigger lock was in another room in a beer stein.

So how did the key get out of the bubble card and into the beer stein when the packaging had never been opened...And if the key unlocks a gun, why would you not have it permanently in your control, as in, in your wallet?

Hmmm....these people have a rather distant relationship with logic as well as responsibility.
Or did I miss something?

 

[Megnut]

So how did the key get out of the bubble card and into the beer stein when the packaging had never been opened...And if the key unlocks a gun, why would you not have it permanently in your control, as in, in your wallet?

Hmmm....these people have a rather distant relationship with logic as well as responsibility.
Or did I miss something?

I might've messed that up. Maybe was the key to the gun safe in the stein? Because the trigger lock and key dogleg still been together, in the bubble pack like you say. And iirc the bubble pack was stuffed under the foam in the gun case itself.

Point remains. Practically effortless to secure a weapon.

The adults chose not to... which gave immediate access to a troubled teem who gave fair warning.

Twelve seconds (to use a trigger lock) or four words would have saved four lives.

He has a gun.

That meeting would have taken a rapid turn and that day would have ended differently. Everyone on lock down until that gun is located.

But two people didn't have time for that.

They've got time now.

 

[MrsWatson]

I'm very interested in the threatening statements James made that curtailed his jail communications.

IIRC, he and Jennifer were not allowed contact.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Oakland prosecutor says no charges against Oxford school officials

Late Friday, the Oakland County Prosecutor's Office said it didn't find sufficient evidence to charge district in connection with 2021 shooting.

www.detroitnews.com

Pontiac — Less than an hour after a jury convicted James Crumbley of involuntary manslaughter, Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald suggested criminal charges against Oxford school officials connected to the mass shooting in November 2021 are still a possibility.

When asked about the chances of seeing charges against school officials Thursday night at a press conference after the verdict was announced, McDonald did not give a straight answer.

Instead, she said that her office wants to hold everyone accountable. But the office has worked for the past two and a half years to convict shooter Ethan Crumbley and his parents, James and Jennifer Crumbley, and "it wasn't easy."

"I made a commitment to these parents and I’m going to keep it," McDonald said. "I'm going to look at the facts and work with them to get the accountability they deserve."...

 

[DFWNF]

I have bolded this bbm quote from Iamwan's post at 9:31 am above:

My Bbm:

The thing I cannot get past as a parent is not seeing the meeting with the counselor on that day as a giant red flag. EVEN IF the counselor did not think he would harm others. EVEN IF the parents did not think he would harm others. They knew something that no one else knew - that he had access to an unsecured gun. That entire math worksheet should have -IMO- been disturbing enough to warrant taking him out of the building that day.

JMO I believe they were well aware of the giant red flag, disturbing things, and I also believe that they jmo thought he would harm others. And did not care. Jmo

 

[Megnut]

Bbm:

The thing I cannot get past as a parent is not seeing the meeting with the counselor on that day as a giant red flag. EVEN IF the counselor did not think he would harm others. EVEN IF the parents did not think he would harm others. They knew something that no one else knew - that he had access to an unsecured gun. That entire math worksheet should have -IMO- been disturbing enough to warrant taking him out of the building that day.

JMO I believe they were well aware of the giant red flag, disturbing things, and I also believe that they jmo thought he would harm others. And did not care. Jmo

In the absence of that thought, they must have been aware he might harm himself. And it would appear, by their actions (leaving a gun in easy range) that they didn't particularly care.

Utterly shocking to my sensibilities.