MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #5

[TigerBalm]

But if I understand correctly, the 12 pages is what was presented to the Judge to sign the search warrant for taking the computer.
If that is the case, then important facts about the case that would indicate that JT might be innocent should not be omitted. Otherwise
the document would be misleading to the judge.

Obtaining a Search Warrant

Only judges and magistrates may issue search warrants. To obtain a warrant, law enforcement officers must show that there is probable cause to believe a search is justified. Officers must support this showing with sworn statements (affidavits), and must describe in particularity the place they will search and the items they will seize. Judges must consider the totality of the circumstances when deciding whether or not to issue the warrant. When issuing a search warrant, the judge may restrict how and when the police conduct the search.

Under the Fourth Amendment, officers seeking a warrant do not need to show that the people being searched (or those whose property is being searched) committed any crime. Rather, officers merely need to show probable cause that the sought-after evidence is there. For example, in Zurcher v. Stanford Daily, 436 U.S. 547 (1978), the Supreme Court allowed the police to search a student newspaper, where the newspaper was not implicated in any criminal activity but police suspected it had photographic evidence of the identities of demonstrators who assaulted police officers. However, some jurisdictions responded by passing laws restricting or forbidding these kinds of searches. See, e.g., CA Penal Code § 1524.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/search_warrant

 

[Skigirl]

But if I understand correctly, the 12 pages is what was presented to the Judge to sign the search warrant for taking the computer.
If that is the case, then important facts about the case that would indicate that JT might be innocent should not be omitted. Otherwise
the document would be misleading to the judge.

Err, my understanding is that the judge would have seen an unredacted version, not the version we saw, but of course they are not making the entire case in the affidavit, just trying to establish enough to justify a search.


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[Hatfield]

Thank you. I was asking because of the talk of rigor mortis setting in prior to the restraints being removed as was talked about upthread. This would take some time as its not an instant process.

You are right it is not instant but it surprised me how quick it can set in. Many factors also affect how quick it sets in. Temperature being one factor.

I know Wiki is not the best sometimes but probably ok for generalizing the time of when rigor mortis sets in.

"Starting between two to six hours following death"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

Just some theories. I think I may have brought up before.

I am pretty sure the killer did not want to stay around that long which makes me think he may have come back. Just a theory that he may have at first quickly left and then thought about trying to make it look more like a random robbery gone wrong so went back and tried to stage the scene better. Or maybe thought he forgot some evidence that he had left.

It seems like the rigor mortis and the way the bindings were removed seems like the perp(s) came back to me. Its either that or perp(s) was there for quite a few hours.
Which is possible too since we have known some criminals to stay around longer than we expect. I would think that is not the norm though. It seems like most perps want to get out of dodge as soon as possible.

If I had to guess I am guessing the perp(s) came back. If LE can prove they came back a 2nd time then maybe that is a clue the perp(s) felt comfortable being there.

All speculation and theory of course.

 

[Hatfield]

Got to thinking that whether the perp(s) stayed long OR came back then either way it is maybe a clue that the perp(s) felt more comfortable than a random murderer would.

It seems to me that most random murderers would be very anxious to leave the scene.

This maybe a clue that the perp(s) had been in that apartment before if they felt that comfortable with either staying long OR coming back.

Its just speculation so may not help to prove anything but it is something to consider. The thing that makes it not help too much is we have known of cases where criminals do really strange things. Like burglars fixing lunch from someones fridge and crazy things like that.

 

[black_squirrel]

Err, my understanding is that the judge would have seen an unredacted version, not the version we saw, but of course they are not making the entire case in the affidavit, just trying to establish enough to justify a search.


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I obtained the affidavit myself with a FOIA request. There was a letter with it that stated that it was redacted to white-out various addresses. Other than that, it did not specify any editing.
In particular, there weren't any pages missing from the 12 pages that I received (which look exactly the same as the pages were posted by Trojan).
(There is also a separate search warrant for searching the computer itself, which was an additional 3 pages, I believe, also posted by Trojan)

So I think, apart from the addresses that have been removed, the documents posted by Trojan is what the judge saw.

 

[Skigirl]

I obtained the affidavit myself with a FOIA request. There was a letter with it that stated that it was redacted to white-out various addresses. Other than that, it did not specify any editing.
In particular, there weren't any pages missing from the 12 pages that I received (which look exactly the same as the pages were posted by Trojan).
(There is also a separate search warrant for searching the computer itself, which was an additional 3 pages, I believe, also posted by Trojan)

So I think, apart from the addresses that have been removed, the documents posted by Trojan is what the judge saw.

Trojan said not up thread


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[FindHG]

I obtained the affidavit myself with a FOIA request. There was a letter with it that stated that it was redacted to white-out various addresses. Other than that, it did not specify any editing.
In particular, there weren't any pages missing from the 12 pages that I received (which look exactly the same as the pages were posted by Trojan).
(There is also a separate search warrant for searching the computer itself, which was an additional 3 pages, I believe, also posted by Trojan)

So I think, apart from the addresses that have been removed, the documents posted by Trojan is what the judge saw.

Trojan said not up thread

Yes, b_s. We all see just all of what a judge needs to see, to frame it a different way, without dismissing the possibility there's more to it.

 

[Trojan1966]

But if I understand correctly, the 12 pages is what was presented to the Judge to sign the search warrant for taking the computer.
If that is the case, then important facts about the case that would indicate that JT might be innocent should not be omitted. Otherwise
the document would be misleading to the judge.

Please remember that the SW was to get the computer so LE could examine if Julia had made contacts, emails, etc as part of the murder investigation. While examining the computer, suspected child *advertiser censored* was found. YPD then followed the law and notified Monroe County of the suspected child *advertiser censored*. It was up to Monroe County to investigate this and see if they felt they had enough evidence to charge someone (JT). Evidently they thought they did have enough evidence and then pursued prosecution and eventually a trial. Please remember, the 12 pages presented to the judge were adequate to obtain a search warrant - that's all the 12 pages of the affidavit was meant to do. It is not all the statements and facts that YPD has concerning the murder. The SW documents were checked by the Washtenaw Prosecutor's office to see what facts and statements could be released without compromising their murder investigation.

 

[Trojan1966]

I obtained the affidavit myself with a FOIA request. There was a letter with it that stated that it was redacted to white-out various addresses. Other than that, it did not specify any editing.
In particular, there weren't any pages missing from the 12 pages that I received (which look exactly the same as the pages were posted by Trojan).
(There is also a separate search warrant for searching the computer itself, which was an additional 3 pages, I believe, also posted by Trojan)

So I think, apart from the addresses that have been removed, the documents posted by Trojan is what the judge saw.

That was all the judge saw to issue the SW. Right.

 

[Trojan1966]

I do wonder what time the roommate stopped by Sunday night and heard the TV louder than usual. Was it before texts at 8:00 pm, 8:30 pm and 10:30 pm? Why would Julia be listening to the TV so loud? And studying for final with a loud TV. Wouldn't it be hard to concentrate? Also, did Julia always keep her bedroom door closed, even with the other roommates out? If she wasn't asleep yet and alone in the apartment it would seem she may have the door open and saw the roommate and inquired about her schedule face to face if needed. Also, did the roommates have assigned parking in the parking lot. Did the roommate notice a strange car/truck in a space?

I don't know the answers to these questions but I'm sure LE does as I believe they have interviewed both roommates more than once. I do know that at that time, there were no "assigned" parking spaces. You basically parked wherever you found an open spot.

 

[Spellbound]

Please remember that the SW was to get the computer so LE could examine if Julia had made contacts, emails, etc as part of the murder investigation. While examining the computer, suspected child *advertiser censored* was found. YPD then followed the law and notified Monroe County of the suspected child *advertiser censored*. It was up to Monroe County to investigate this and see if they felt they had enough evidence to charge someone (JT). Evidently they thought they did have enough evidence and then pursued prosecution and eventually a trial. Please remember, the 12 pages presented to the judge were adequate to obtain a search warrant - that's all the 12 pages of the affidavit was meant to do. It is not all the statements and facts that YPD has concerning the murder. The SW documents were checked by the Washtenaw Prosecutor's office to see what facts and statements could be released without compromising their murder investigation.

Sometimes it must seem you keep repeating many of the same facts. We thank you for your patience and your courteous way, Trojan. With two cases intertwined, we tend to overlap our thinking at times.


I am stuck on whether the perp stayed in the apartment a very long time or left and returned for some reason. Many of you have had interesting thoughts on this. Either way seems odd to me at this point, and I will mull it over a lot more I am sure. Thanks for all the sharing of ideas.

 

[georgiasblu]

Sometimes it must seem you keep repeating many of the same facts. We thank you for your patience and your courteous way, Trojan. With two cases intertwined, we tend to overlap our thinking at times.


I am stuck on whether the perp stayed in the apartment a very long time or left and returned for some reason. Many of you have had interesting thoughts on this. Either way seems odd to me at this point, and I will mull it over a lot more I am sure. Thanks for all the sharing of ideas.

LE thinks the killer took his time. Was this due to her positioning in the tub or was there something else we're not privy to that points in that direction? Coming in and out of the apartment is taking a big chance to someone who created a elaborate ruse with the gloves.

 

[Spellbound]

LE thinks the killer took his time. Was this due to her positioning in the tub or was there something else we're not privy to that points in that direction? Coming in and out of the apartment is taking a big chance to someone who created a elaborate ruse with the gloves.

I agree, though either way would seem risky. Unless he/they knew no one would be coming back to the apartment. Julia may have let it known to family or friends that she would be alone and able to study that weekend.

I thnk the position of her body, arms behind her, rigor mortise and lividity, signs of ligatures but nowhere in sight, all helped to determine how long she had been tied before dying, and in determining the TOD. Possibility the temp of the water or how icy water was in the tub also contributed.

 

[Trojan1966]

I'm sure that the fact that she was in the tub with water in it made establishing the TOD much more complicated. The temperature of the water could have a great effect on determining the TOD with any accuracy.

 

[mikaylasmom]

I have a theory and I could be completely off base, but I've been wondering, could it be at all possible that Julia was having an affair with JT and he was in a jealous rage over her going out on a date with another man? Or could it be that she was going to tell her mom that they had been together? I'm so sorry if this offends, just something I've been thinking about.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

I don't know the answers to these questions but I'm sure LE does as I believe they have interviewed both roommates more than once. I do know that at that time, there were no "assigned" parking spaces. You basically parked wherever you found an open spot.

Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions you can Trojan1966! I realize now, more than ever, the roommates stopping in, and their small observations are critical and telling in ways that will lead us to the truth. I know there is a lot of information LE must keep unwraps for an upcoming trial.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

You are right it is not instant but it surprised me how quick it can set in. Many factors also affect how quick it sets in. Temperature being one factor.

I know Wiki is not the best sometimes but probably ok for generalizing the time of when rigor mortis sets in.

"Starting between two to six hours following death"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

Just some theories. I think I may have brought up before.

I am pretty sure the killer did not want to stay around that long which makes me think he may have come back. Just a theory that he may have at first quickly left and then thought about trying to make it look more like a random robbery gone wrong so went back and tried to stage the scene better. Or maybe thought he forgot some evidence that he had left.

It seems like the rigor mortis and the way the bindings were removed seems like the perp(s) came back to me. Its either that or perp(s) was there for quite a few hours.
Which is possible too since we have known some criminals to stay around longer than we expect. I would think that is not the norm though. It seems like most perps want to get out of dodge as soon as possible.

If I had to guess I am guessing the perp(s) came back. If LE can prove they came back a 2nd time then maybe that is a clue the perp(s) felt comfortable being there.

All speculation and theory of course.

Maybe the killer(s) had to leave so others in their life wouldn't become suspicious of their absence, but felt comfortable enough and compelled to return and tidy up the scene. The killer might have returned to clean off any fingerprints or make it look like a robbery gone wrong, or they were looking for something in Julia's stuff. Agreed, most killers want to 'get out of dodge' after. If the killer was random, they wouldn't care so much about what was left behind since there wasn't a tie to them and the victim. But someone who could be tied to the victim may feel the risk of returning was worth the stretch, since LE could tie them to Julia.

 

[fleurdelea]

Or maybe sexual abuse that could misconstrued or judged by other(s) as an affair.

 

[fleurdelea]

Or maybe sexual abuse that could misconstrued or judged by other(s) as an affair.

Sorry, this was in response to Mikaylasmom's entry:
I have a theory and I could be completely off base, but I've been wondering, could it be at all possible that Julia was having an affair with JT and he was in a jealous rage over her going out on a date with another man? Or could it be that she was going to tell her mom that they had been together? I'm so sorry if this offends, just something I've been thinking about.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

I have a theory and I could be completely off base, but I've been wondering, could it be at all possible that Julia was having an affair with JT and he was in a jealous rage over her going out on a date with another man? Or could it be that she was going to tell her mom that they had been together? I'm so sorry if this offends, just something I've been thinking about.

An affair might explain if/why JT could have been let into the apartment by Julia and could establish a motive of jealousy, or fear of exposure. I've considered this too because in the 12 page affidavit it states JT had an affair with a step-sister, so step family members haven't been off limits to him in the past.

I've also considered JT wanting to have an affair with Julia, but Julia declining his advances. It's been reported by other family members that JT and KT were have marital issues, not being intimate for 2 years. We know from the images found on the family computer that JT (or someone in the household) liked viewing and downloading images of younger females. IMO...My wild speculation is: JT had an infatuation with Julia that turned into an obsession, he couldn't control her like the rest of the family, and this made him try even harder to get with her. He may have staked her social media. He may have showed up at the apartment to drop off something, knowing Julia was the alone, thinking this would be his chance, made an advance and Julia threatened and insulted him. Things went from there. He couldn't stand the rejection and hurt turned to anger, then to rage.