MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #5

[fleurdelea]

Concerning the SW documents................
A detail in SW #1 was pointed out to me last night. On page 4, Item M - statement by the Medical Examiner said "Here, ligature like abrasions were observed on the right and left ankle and Julia's left wrist."
What about her right wrist??? Not sure if there were any abrasions but just thought I'd see what people think.

I wonder if the right wrist were bound loosely, would there be no mark left?
If there were no ligature on the right wrist, then a few possibilities exist:
The perp(s) did not find it necessary.

Self bondage.

The perp(s) wanted her to have one hand free.

 

[Spellbound]

Did these abrasions come from a taser or stun gun? I think this makes sense. The perp may have used a taser/stun gun, and then moved quickly to tie and gag Julia.

Yes, I have wondered about this same possibility. That would explain why she did not appear to have struggled.

 

[black_squirrel]

Yes, I have wondered about this same possibility. That would explain why she did not appear to have struggled.

Taser's weren't legal in Michigan for ordinary citizens until a few months before Julia's death. But now that it is legal one still needs a concealed pistol license. In December 2012, there weren't many people in Michigan with a taser/stun gun. It is mostly police officers, private investigators, security etc. who might have such devices.

I think it might also be possible that Julia opened the door for someone she did not know, but who seemed legit (for example they were wearing a uniform) and then the perp surprised her with a stun gun.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

The link explains that other cells besides sperm cells are in semen. SKIN CELLS are one type that can be in there too.

Skin Cells have DNA too, even in males producing absolutely, positively, zero sperm.

So DNA can be extracted from vasectomized males semen but it is like we have been saying.

The bottom line is it all depends on the quality of the sample.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns...-vasectomy-can-dna-be-obtained-from-his-semen

Regarding the semen, I do wonder if the body being submerged in water, to a point, affected the quality of the DNA sample left to test.

I think the water was effective in washing away a lot of DNA in general that may have been found on the body. There should have been something from a pert(s) shoes found on the carpet too. December in Michigan seems to bring a little snow, mud possibly. Maybe they removed their shoes, making themselves at home. I would think a fingerprint or too on the items tossed around Julia's room and on her purse. How would it be that there is so little physical evidence in Julia's room and bathroom. Aside from the room being ransacked, IMO..things seemed a little too neat and tidy for what transpired. And then, to top it off, possible physical evidence in the form of latex gloves being planted at the crime scene. Someone went to great lengths to cover their tracts, possibly knowing what LE would be looking for.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

Taser's weren't legal in Michigan for ordinary citizens until a few months before Julia's death. But now that it is legal one still needs a concealed pistol license. In December 2012, there weren't many people in Michigan with a taser/stun gun. It is mostly police officers, private investigators, security etc. who might have such devices.

I think it might also be possible that Julia opened the door for someone she did not know, but who seemed legit (for example they were wearing a uniform) and then the perp surprised her with a stun gun.

The legal sale of Tasers in the area should be easy to tract in 2012 if it's the same criteria as purchasing a gun. All sales have to be recorded by the seller. LE could just find out who sells them and ask to see the records from 2012. Not sure how easy it would be to purchase a Taser by other means, but it's possible I bet.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

I wonder if the right wrist were bound loosely, would there be no mark left?
If there were no ligature on the right wrist, then a few possibilities exist:
The perp(s) did not find it necessary.

Self bondage.

The perp(s) wanted her to have one hand free.

My take on this was the pert. was using a rope or tie(s) that wasn't long enough to handle another arm, so they tied up just enough to restrain. Who's going to be walking around an apartment complex with a long role or some sort of ties in their hands without being noticed? They probably had to use what was on their person.

 

[black_squirrel]

My take on this was the pert. was using a rope or tie(s) that wasn't long enough to handle another arm, so they tied up just enough to restrain. Who's going to be walking around an apartment complex with a long role or some sort of ties in their hands without being noticed? They probably had to use what was on their person.

I presume the perpetrator used handcuffs or zip-ties, because these are easy to put on quickly.

I think that both hands were probably tied, but for some reason there were (faint?) ligature marks on only one of the wrists. The ligatures might not have been extremely tight. Handcuffs could have been tighter on one side than on the other, I think (I have no experience with handcuffs). Some of these marks may have been caused after death, as rigor mortis sets in.

 

[black_squirrel]

Suppose that the circular abrasions on the elbow area were indeed from a stun gun. That means that the left side of the body was
probably exposed to the perpetrator as he used the stun gun. For example, Julia might have opened the (bathroom/bedroom/apartment) door and the perpetrator immediately attacked with the stun gun. For her left side to be exposed while opening the door, the handle had to be on the left side of the door from Julia's perspective. That means, that as you enter the bathroom/bedroom/apartment the handle would be on the right.

So my question is, which of the doors in the apartment would have the handle on the right as you enter?
The front door? Julia's bedroom door? Julia's bathroom door?
Does anyone know this? Trojan, do you recall?

 

[Deleted member 132804]

Suppose that the circular abrasions on the elbow area were indeed from a stun gun. That means that the left side of the body was
probably exposed to the perpetrator as he used the stun gun. For example, Julia might have opened the (bathroom/bedroom/apartment) door and the perpetrator immediately attacked with the stun gun. For her left side to be exposed while opening the door, the handle had to be on the left side of the door from Julia's perspective. That means, that as you enter the bathroom/bedroom/apartment the handle would be on the right.

So my question is, which of the doors in the apartment would have the handle on the right as you enter?
The front door? Julia's bedroom door? Julia's bathroom door?
Does anyone know this? Trojan, do you recall?

Most standard door handles are built on the right side, although in the Peninsular Pines floorplan diagram online it shows most door openings to the right, a few are to the left, if accurate. Most people are right handed. If someone is at my door, I open the door, using the handle, with my right hand and allow the person to enter, then follow behind them. If someone is at my door and they are waiting in the doorway while I turn around with the door ajar to get something, I would turn to the right slightly, walking forward with my back and left elbow exposed first.

I wonder if the perf. came upon Julia while she was sleeping on her right side, with her left arm exposed, and they used the stun gun this way, with the left elbow being the first contact.

 

[caspermi]

Suppose that the circular abrasions on the elbow area were indeed from a stun gun. That means that the left side of the body was
probably exposed to the perpetrator as he used the stun gun. For example, Julia might have opened the (bathroom/bedroom/apartment) door and the perpetrator immediately attacked with the stun gun. For her left side to be exposed while opening the door, the handle had to be on the left side of the door from Julia's perspective. That means, that as you enter the bathroom/bedroom/apartment the handle would be on the right.

So my question is, which of the doors in the apartment would have the handle on the right as you enter?
The front door? Julia's bedroom door? Julia's bathroom door?
Does anyone know this? Trojan, do you recall?

From the Handbook of Forensic Pathology Second Edition, "when a stun gun is activated while in contact with human skin, characteristic, patterned injuries may result. The lesions produced tend to be small, round or slightly linear abrasions or areas of erythema, with or without central paling, which occurs in pairs. The distance between the paired skin lesions should correspond to the distance between the stun gun electrodes contacting the skin".


The question, that LE probably has the answer to, is whether the distance between the two abrasions on the elbow correspond to the distance between stun gun electrodes.

 

[black_squirrel]

Most standard door handles are built on the right side, although in the Peninsular Pines floorplan diagram online it shows most door openings to the right, a few are to the left, if accurate. Most people are right handed. If someone is at my door, I open the door, using the handle, with my right hand and allow the person to enter, then follow behind them. If someone is at my door and they are waiting in the doorway while I turn around with the door ajar to get something, I would turn to the right slightly, walking forward with my back and left elbow exposed first.

I wonder if the perf. came upon Julia while she was sleeping on her right side, with her left arm exposed, and they used the stun gun this way, with the left elbow being the first contact.

I think most people would use their left hand if the handle is on the right, and their right hand if the handle is on the left. At least I do. I will start paying attention to other people and see if they do the same usually. If Julia was attacked with the stun gun as he was opening the door, then the handle would have been on the left for Julia for her left side of the body to be exposed.

Usually, a front door has the handle on the right, for the person who is inside. From a picture on facebook it seems that this was also the case for Julia's apartment. So it seems that she wasn't attacked with a stun gun as she was opening the front door.

Generally, architect place doors such that they require the least amount of space. Depending on the situation, the handle may be on the left or on the right.
I think Julia's bedroom door handle was on the left (seen from inside the bedroom). That would be consistent with being attacked while opening the bedroom door. But of course, if that were the case, how did the perpetrator get into the apartment?

Of course, if Julia knew the person, then that person could have surprised her with the stun gun at any time if it was concealed.

If she was indeed attacked with a stun gun, she might have fallen down if she was standing up at the time. She didn't have any major bruises, but she did bit her tongue, which could also be the result of collapsing to the ground

 

[Deleted member 132804]

I presume the perpetrator used handcuffs or zip-ties, because these are easy to put on quickly.

I think that both hands were probably tied, but for some reason there were (faint?) ligature marks on only one of the wrists. The ligatures might not have been extremely tight. Handcuffs could have been tighter on one side than on the other, I think (I have no experience with handcuffs). Some of these marks may have been caused after death, as rigor mortis sets in.

Interesting, handcuffs or zip-ties and a taser. This is sounding like the pert. could be in law enforcement. Or, may had been at least, at one time.

 

[Hatfield]

Interesting, handcuffs or zip-ties and a taser. This is sounding like the pert. could be in law enforcement. Or, may had been at least, at one time.

Or maybe security guard type person.

If its proven a taser made those marks and if it is true that they became legal shortly before her death then it could also be a public person that had an infatuation with obtaining a taser.

Someone that likes those types of techie devices. Someone that likes to watch CSI type shows.

A person like this would most likely have other types of things like handcuffs and maybe other CSI gadgets. Anyone who knew the person would most likely know about the persons obsession with CSI type shows.

It sure seems like it because even a normal criminal doesn't usually tie up and bound a person. They usually just beat them until they stop resisting. The binding itself is very unusual to me and shows a mindset that is more like security guard or LE or CSI type fanatic.

 

[Skigirl]

Interesting, handcuffs or zip-ties and a taser. This is sounding like the pert. could be in law enforcement. Or, may had been at least, at one time.

Some of the quotes from JT in the search warrant affidavit may be aligned with that theory.

 

[Hatfield]

Some of the quotes from JT in the search warrant affidavit may be aligned with that theory.

See Item "3-K" in search Warrant #1 on first page of thread

My goodness.

 

[Deleted member 132804]

See Item "3-K" in search Warrant #1 on first page of thread

My goodness.

OMG...that is chilling. I forgot about JT's work history, working as a reserve officer for the Monroe County Sheriff Marine Division and as a Security Guard in loss prevention.

 

[dmc43613]

Forgive me if this was mentioned or asked upthread, I'm trying to catch up, but would being "stunned" affected her breathing condition she was afflicted with?

 

[black_squirrel]

See Item "3-K" in search Warrant #1 on first page of thread

My goodness.

If the perpetrator did indeed use a stun gun, and perhaps handcuffs or zip-ties, then it does seem that the perpetrator has some connection to law enforcement. At the time many police departments had tasers, but very few people outside the police did. Stun guns only became legal in Michigan a couple of months before Julia's death and only to people with a concealed pistol permit.

JT wasn't working for law enforcement or any security firm at the time. He would have legally been able to buy a stun gun in Michigan those months before Julia's death, but
not any time earlier. Perhaps this is why LE is interested in knowing where he was the days prior to Julia's death. If he did purchase a stun gun then that might be used as circumstantial evidence. But let's not forget that JT actually past 2 lie detector tests and has an alibi. His experience with stun guns would be very limited if there was any. In loss prevention, security usually does not taser shop-lifters, because that would cause a big lawsuit that would dwarf any financial loss because of the shoplifting.
Also, I think that the CSI knowledge of JT would be very limited. I am not sure if he is interested in CSI, but my guess is that he is interested in hunting and martial arts and not much else.

If we have another look at the warrant, we see that another family member of Julia works in law-enforcement (see item BB). This person, TC, is a high-ranking member at the Taylor police department and is in charge of the investigative services division which oversees a crime lab. The Taylor police department did use tasers at the time.
I think it is very likely that TC has extensive knowledge about crime scene investigations, and is experienced in using tasers. He and his wife made damaging statements about JT (see Warrant, V, BB, TT). Julia visited them about a week before her death. I am not saying that this person TC must be involved. But all I am saying is that there may be more obvious people in Julia's circles that have a law enforcement background.

Another person connected to Julia with a law enforcement is RD (former cop), the person who runs the private investigation company that initially put out a $10,000 reward,
and then retracteded it. Could RD have put out the award in order to obtain information from the Ypsilanti police about the investigation?

And these are not the only people in Julia's circle with a law enforcement background.

 

[Skigirl]

If the perpetrator did indeed use a stun gun, and perhaps handcuffs or zip-ties, then it does seem that the perpetrator has some connection to law enforcement. At the time many police departments had tasers, but very few people outside the police did. Stun guns only became legal in Michigan a couple of months before Julia's death and only to people with a concealed pistol permit.

JT wasn't working for law enforcement or any security firm at the time. He would have legally been able to buy a stun gun in Michigan those months before Julia's death, but
not any time earlier. Perhaps this is why LE is interested in knowing where he was the days prior to Julia's death. If he did purchase a stun gun then that might be used as circumstantial evidence. But let's not forget that JT actually past 2 lie detector tests and has an alibi. His experience with stun guns would be very limited if there was any. In loss prevention, security usually does not taser shop-lifters, because that would cause a big lawsuit that would dwarf any financial loss because of the shoplifting.
Also, I think that the CSI knowledge of JT would be very limited. I am not sure if he is interested in CSI, but my guess is that he is interested in hunting and martial arts and not much else.

If we have another look at the warrant, we see that another family member of Julia works in law-enforcement (see item BB). This person, TC, is a high-ranking member at the Taylor police department and is in charge of the investigative services division which oversees a crime lab. The Taylor police department did use tasers at the time.
I think it is very likely that TC has extensive knowledge about crime scene investigations, and is experienced in using tasers. He and his wife made damaging statements about JT (see Warrant, V, BB, TT). Julia visited them about a week before her death. I am not saying that this person TC must be involved. But all I am saying is that there may be more obvious people in Julia's circles that have a law enforcement background.

Another person connected to Julia with a law enforcement is RD (former cop), the person who runs the private investigation company that initially put out a $10,000 reward,
and then retracteded it. Could RD have put out the award in order to obtain information from the Ypsilanti police about the investigation?

And these are not the only people in Julia's circle with a law enforcement background.

These are good points, but I have a couple of small disagreements.

First, I don't think the lie detector results should carry any weight. Lie detectors are, essentially, anxiety detectors -- and not very good ones at that. Furthermore, JT's tests were not administered by LE. To me, the lie detector results are about as useful as if someone told me that JT is good at hanging wallpaper. (The alibi, in my mind, carries weight).

Someone who fancies himself as part of, or formerly a part of, law enforcement is likely to be at least as familiar with crime scene investigation as the average person is. I think it's pretty hard these days not to have some level of education about how crime scenes are analyzed. Trials often include such evidence and trials often also get a good deal of media coverage. Fictional shows may not present perfect information, but they do provide a good deal of information none-the-less, not to mention non-fiction shows like Forensic Files that have been popular. I just don't see how anyone who has consumed media over the last 25 years could not have some degree of familiarity with crime scene investigations. Add that to his self-identification with LE/security, and I would bet he had sought out information about, and entertainment involving, CSI.

As for the availability of illegal tasers...not sure I know how available they are. I'm not saying tasers are ubiquitous, but I'm not sure I think that, if the killer used one, it necessarily means that the killer is current member of law enforcement. Certainly a large number of illegal guns are available. I do agree that a current member of law enforcement would be more likely than others to have one, but that's also true of guns, with a smaller difference in probability.

 

[black_squirrel]

These are good points, but I have a couple of small disagreements.

First, I don't think the lie detector results should carry any weight. Lie detectors are, essentially, anxiety detectors -- and not very good ones at that. Furthermore, JT's tests were not administered by LE. To me, the lie detector results are about as useful as if someone told me that JT is good at hanging wallpaper. (The alibi, in my mind, carries weight).

I think the lie detector test will carry some weight for investigators, even if it isn't admissible in court, because otherwise they wouldn't have asked him to take a lie detector test in the first place. One of the tests was administered by LE. Or, to be more precise, both tests were done by professionals, one hired by the lawyer and the other one by LE.

Everyone watching crime series, will know to wipe out finger prints, and will try not to leave behind DNA evidence. I am not sure though if watching those shows would be enough to be able to deceive law enforcement and be able not to leave behind any traces. In any case, I think it would be helpful to have insider knowledge about how a crime scene is analyzed with the newest state-of-the art technologies.