GUILTY MI - Renisha McBride, 19, shot while trying to get help, Detroit, Nov 2013

[CHERIE.T]

IMO our life experiences form how we think or react in certain circumstances. I cannot begin to imagine how this guy must feel.

If we come to find out that this guy was an Iraq War veteran, would his action/reaction make more or less sense? If his mother was raped in a home invasion when he was younger, would his action/reaction make more or less sense? Are the friends she was with culpable for serving her alcohol, not taking her keys, letting her drive, get into an accident and end up on some random porch getting shot to death?

I have tried to wrap my head around this horrific chain of events. I think there is plenty of "blame" to go around. Two families are suffering and their lives have been upended. IMO, there were some poor choices made by both parties involved in this tragedy. JMV

:goodpost:

 

[Tawny]

Here's my question about the BAC. It was taken after the incident, which was hours and hours after the car accident. How much metabolized out of her body between the accident and the shooting? If she consumed no more alcohol after the accident, what was her BAC at that time? It would have been astronomical, and I'm shocked she could even walk or heck even hold her head up straight.

OR - Was it lower/same at the time of the accident and she consumed more in the 3+ hours between accident and shooting?

None of it is really relevant because it was very high regardless, I'm just curious what was happening in those last hours. No real reason, not even relevant, just curious is all. Unless someone comes forward and says they saw/was with her during those hours, we'll never know anyway.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Morning, all. Thanks to those that linked me up thread to earlier postings. I left WS after Kyron Horman's disappearance and did not come back until now. I have had a hard time finding Renisha's earlier threads and did as much back-reading as possible. I apologize if my questions threw the conversation off track.

ANYWHO, I'm looking for an article I read that mentioned the size of his porch. I think it is more of a poured concrete slab. I will look for a link that'll back that, IMO, he knew he hit her. At that distance, with a shotgun, I don't think there's a whole lot of room for doubt. Light on or off.

I think the "I think" was thrown in because he was setting himself up to claim it had been an accident.

I have been digging around through the dozens of articles I have read looking for the size of his porch. I did find this:


http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/renisha-mcbride-s-family-wants-to-know-why-she-was-shot-on-porch-1.6446974

There seems to be so much judgement aimed at Renisha for driving drunk. No, she SHOULD NOT have been driving drunk. Marijuana was decriminalized in Detroit in 2012. If the tests prove that Renisha was driving stoned she should not have been driving stoned.

However, Wafer was given the oppourtunity to correct his behavior as he grew older. To learn from his multiple DUI's and grow towards becoming a productive citizen that was a caretaker for his mother at the time of Renisha's death. Wafer has more than one DUI on his record, according to his attorney. It is a shame that Renisha did not survive the night in question. It is a shame that Wafer did not call the police. Then it's likely that Renisha would have been linked to the accident she caused and her father's banged up SUV.

Maybe Renisha would have gone on to be a steadily-employed high school graduate who spent a year at Northern Michigan University and whose only run-ins with the law involved a decades-old drunken driving case - if she had approached a different house that night.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/15/new-details-on-theodore-wafer-the-man-who-shot-renisha-mcbride.html

Just sayin.'

His DUIs were from DECADES ago, why slay him for that now?
IMO whoever allowed a 19 year old to smoke weed and be 3 times beyond the legal alcohol limit should hold some responsibility for allowing her to drive. Notice thus far, whoever she was with are tight lipped.

 

[CHERIE.T]

That bit bolded by me made me laugh. Which century do we live in? Lol. I'm trying to work out whether you mean men should confront everything with aggression rather than just phone 911, or that by phoning 911 would make him less of a man. Either way it's just ridiculous. Men, whether they are the manliest men ever, or true wimpy geeks, do not have the right to shoot people.

Wrong, a man when he is defending himself, protecting himself, etc, has a right to shoot.

 

[Tawny]

I find it pretty troubling that no one has come forward to say they were with her. Great friends, huh?

 

[Elainera]

Re the high BAC, there might be another factor to be considered: alcohol is also a byproduct of decomposition. Now I have no idea how fast alcohol levels would rise after death, it is very possible that her autopsy was soon enough to rule falsely high levels out.

 

[Elainera]

Here are a few examples, apparently it is not so easy to accurately determine how intoxicated someone was before they died based on the postmortem BAC:

If the deceased person was involved in an accident or caused an event that injured or killed others, experts must take care to either confirm or rule out intoxication as a factor. Because alcohol production in the body after death is chemically the same as that from drinking, blood-alcohol content alone cannot determine whether the person consumed alcohol before death. The alcohol level of the person's urine may not give an accurate before-death picture either. The vitreous humour sample usually proves more useful in estimating intoxication, but in the end, the medical examiner must take into account the body's weight, age, sex, fat content, time of death and other factors.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_5675437_alcohol-metabolism-after-death.html#ixzz2kxaoqvwi

Postmortem blood is not sterile, over half of postmortem blood samples were found to contain bacteria and fungi (WOA70202)

Postmortem blood can have a much higher glucose concentration of 7 to 10X that of antemortem blood (WOA70201)

Postmortem diffusion of alcohol from the gut can falsely elevate the BAC (WOA70301).

http://www.wigmoreonalcohol.com/postmortem-blood-alcohol/

 

[Karmady]

His DUIs were from DECADES ago, why slay him for that now?
IMO whoever allowed a 19 year old to smoke weed and be 3 times beyond the legal alcohol limit should hold some responsibility for allowing her to drive. Notice thus far, whoever she was with are tight lipped.

I've read that Michigan's level for minors is .02, not .08. So if she'd been caught she would have been more than 10 times over the legal limit.

http://dui.legalhelp.org/michigan/underage-dui-in-michigan/

 

[Karmady]

We know her BAC at autopsy. We do not know her BAC at the time she appeared on Mr. Wafer's porch.

Let's remember that Renisha was dead at the time her BAC was drawn. I think that's relative. I do. I'm sure she was WELL OVER .08. WELL OVER. I do not know that she was at .21 at Mr. Wafer's steps.
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=320986

Maybe she went back to get the cash found on her person and knocked on his door to ask him to call her a cab? Crikes. If it was my Dad's car I'd be looking for a ride to the airport.

Just for example, there were only trace amounts of alcohol noted in Travis Alexander's toxicology report associated with decomposition. Even though he was decomposing for several days before anyone found him iirc. I doubt that the short period of time between death and autopsy in this case would have had any impact on her BAC from decomposition. jmo

 

[CHERIE.T]

I've read that Michigan's level for minors is .02, not .08. So if she'd been caught she would have been more than 10 times over the legal limit.

http://dui.legalhelp.org/michigan/underage-dui-in-michigan/

As always thanks Karmady.

 

[Zuri]

Thinking out loud. I wonder if TW attempted to render first aid after shooting RM.

 

[Tawny]

Not to be gruesome, but since the point of impact was just to the left of her nose and it was from a shotgun... I highly doubt it.

 

[Zuri]

Not to be gruesome, but since the point of impact was just to the left of her nose and it was from a shotgun... I highly doubt it.

Ok. I wonder then if TW went out on the stoop and saw the wound between the first and second 911 calls. This is where it gets muddy for me. If the person on the stoop was a threat, don't you want to make sure they are no longer a threat?
If it was an accident, wouldnt you go out and try to apply towels?
I thought TW sounded very shaken in the 911 call tape. JMO

 

[Tugela]

I can't imagine anyone establishing a dialog or asking "May I help you' in the dark, at 4AM to a bulky figure on the front stoop or try to figure out why they are at our door. Not happening! I think Wafer is way overcharged and it will be a hung jury or not guilty. I do see another defense fund starting up for him. Very sorry this woman died, but bad things happen in the middle of the night.

She was probably challenged, and gave back an incoherent answer. I doubt there was any conversation. It would have created a lot of uncertainty and fear in the shooter given the time of the morning it all happened.

 

[Tawny]

Ok. I wonder then if TW went out on the stoop and saw the wound between the first and second 911 calls. This is where it gets muddy for me. If the person on the stoop was a threat, don't you want to make sure they are no longer a threat?
If it was an accident, wouldnt you go out and try to apply towels?
I thought TW sounded very shaken in the 911 call tape. JMO

This is so hard for me to post. I really don't want to seem uncaring or gruesome.

Have you ever fired a shotgun? We have an annual "Veteran's Day Pumpkin Shoot" with friends. The closest we shoot shotguns from is about 20 feet.

Towels wouldn't... do much... Which is probably why he sounded shaky. He may have been trying to keep it together and not completely break down.

JMO


ETA: Mods, if this isn't appropriate to post, please let me know/delete. I don't want to offend anybody.

 

[Karmady]

This is so hard for me to post. I really don't want to seem uncaring or gruesome.

Have you ever fired a shotgun? We have an annual "Veteran's Day Pumpkin Shoot" with friends. The closest we shoot shotguns from is about 20 feet.

Towels wouldn't... do much... Which is probably why he sounded shaky. He may have been trying to keep it together and not completely break down.

JMO


ETA: Mods, if this isn't appropriate to post, please let me know/delete. I don't want to offend anybody.

I haven't ever done that, but there was a 3"x2" entry wound iirc and no exit wound. Is that consistent with your experience. I've been trying to figure out how the wound size with no exit wound plays into this. But I have no knowledge about guns...so there's that :/

 

[Sherp]

Here's my question about the BAC. It was taken after the incident, which was hours and hours after the car accident. How much metabolized out of her body between the accident and the shooting? If she consumed no more alcohol after the accident, what was her BAC at that time? It would have been astronomical, and I'm shocked she could even walk or heck even hold her head up straight.

OR - Was it lower/same at the time of the accident and she consumed more in the 3+ hours between accident and shooting?

None of it is really relevant because it was very high regardless, I'm just curious what was happening in those last hours. No real reason, not even relevant, just curious is all. Unless someone comes forward and says they saw/was with her during those hours, we'll never know anyway.

I would hope the pings on her cell phone will help illuminate where she was that day, evening and in the middle of the night. I think the jury will take into context all of the goings on over a 24 hour period for both Wafer and McBride. McBride was 184 lbs, but even at that I doubt she could function much with a higher BA without alcohol poisoning. My speculation is the BA was shot up after the accident and in the 3 hour time period.

 

[Tawny]

I haven't ever done that, but there was a 3"x2" entry wound iirc and no exit wound. Is that consistent with your experience. I've been trying to figure out how the wound size with no entry wound plays into this. But I have no knowledge about guns...so there's that :/

Oh, I hadn't seen that. It must have been buckshot instead of birdshot. I can't imagine how there would be no exit wound...

 

[Tawny]

Ok, I was thinking of slugs. If he was using a standard buckshot, it likely would not have an exit wound. If he were using a slug, the neighbors may have had a hole in their house. Birdshot would scatter and would not have a single entry wound.

Obviously, we'll probably find out what he used, but it appears he used buckshot ammunition, which is recommended for home defense actually, because of it's stopping power AND lack of over-penetration (meaning it won't go through a person AND walls).

(JMO from what I'm reading about various shotgun ammunitions)

 

[Tugela]

Just able to get back to this thread now, it was also moved and I could not find it. I really don't want to read the whole thread so excuse my repetitiveness if there is any.

I am really upset about other sites really broiling the victim in this case It's like people do not understand that even people who may have done something wrong can also be a victim.... Renisha is a victim... sigh, so very tragic.

As far as the self-defense or SYG issue in this case I feel these things will not beat the charge of manslaughter. From the moment I heard about this case to me it points to involuntary manslaughter. The Castle doctrine of Michigan used to prohibit the use of deadly force outside of the home however, when they enacted SYG a section was placed within it that allowed homeowners to use such force against persons breaking into their homes. However, again, it must meet two subsections:

a) The homeowner MUST believe their home is being broken into....

and

b) Their house must actually BE BEING broken into.

Thinking it's being broken into is NOT enough to meet the elements of SYG in Michigan. Wafer thought his home was being broken into, evidence collected will show a jury whether or not it actually was being broken into. If Ranisha caused no damage to his storm doors I feel a jury will assume she was not and had not attempted to break into his home and therefore, Wafer had no right to shoot her regardless of his fear or anxiety.

While Wafer was not required to call 911 before the event, it would have made better sense, and have been a better choice. I also think a jury will have a hard time getting around the fact that he opened the door to his home. If you are "in fear for your life or of severe bodily injury due to an imminent threat" you do not tend to remove the only barrier keeping that threat from you.

While I really feel terrible for this man and his choice, I predict he will be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. I'm a little lost as to why he is being charged with murder 2 but I guess evidence from the event and his initial statements to LE will explain that at trial.

Banging on the door or otherwise trying to open it would constitute an attempt to gain entry from a legal perspective. There doesn't have to be damage. The prosecution will have the obligation to prove that didn't happen to make their case, and I doubt they have the evidence for that argument. She must have been creating enough ruckus or a disturbance to wake him up, so that part of the requirement is satisfied.