MI - Three siblings in juvenile detention for contempt, Pontiac, 9 July 2015

[Ladylub]

I back the kids here and what they say is all that matters right now. I hope these kids continue to stand up for what they have seen as true.

 

[KaaBoom]

It seems (and I could be wrong as I have not read every single one of the transcripts) that the judge makes mom pay for everything everytime dad takes her back to court. Mom pays his attorney fees, her own, the GAL fees, the fees for the person that supervises the visits, the fees for the Bridge counseling, etc. The judge did split the cost for the summer camp between mom and dad but everything else I have seen is where mom is made to pay. It's no wonder she has trouble paying her own attorney fees....if she doesn't pay all of the others before her own then she gets in trouble and threatened to be tossed in jail for a period of time. That also makes it difficult for a person to want to foster a good attitude with their ex when their ex is the one causing the majority of the fees.

MOO

Yep, thats the way I read it.

 

[KaaBoom]

The judge couldn't treat them in any way at all when the were refusing to even come into the courtroom. They also refused to speak with multiple adults.

I don't know where you come from, but where I come from it's unacceptable for judges to tell little kids that they are stupid, and liken their mothers to Charles Manson. If the judge can't treat children better then that, then she shouldn't be a judge.

 

[KaaBoom]

Testimony of the GAL.

And who appointed the GAL?

 

[Margo/Mom]

Unfounded conspiracy theories that imply massive collusion between the judge and all parties associated with the case are not only unhelpful, they start to sound a little cuckoo.

 

[freckles]

This is a very complex case. Both sides have done wrong. IMO - it could appear that dad put his job above his kids, so I get that they felt abandoned and had resentment towards him. The mother failed by not supporting his requests to see his kids.

If for some reason I had to be physically separated from my kids, and their father was not supporting my visits and in fact was contributing to their reluctance to see me, I would not be able to just walk away and let them think I didn't want to see them.

As far as the kids having the right to make that decision, I have to disagree. Especially with supervised visits. Suppose your kids are with the other parent and they don't want to see you. Could you really accept that?

Children are not allowed to make a lot of choices - schooling, medical care, curfews, etc. In some cases, they are required to visit parents in prison. Why should they be able to decide to cut a parent out of their life.

 

[TorisMom003]

When reading the transcripts of the hearings it is easy, for me, to see why the children and their mom don't trust the judgment of the judge and/or the GAL. During one hearing the judge stated that she already had the motion before her and had started signing her name before even hearing what the mom/her lawyers had to say about it. The mom is always wrong, no matter what, according to the judge. The mom "doesn't get it" according to the judge/GAL.

The father did, even if he doesn't want to admit it, put his job and himself above his wife and children when he took the job in Israel with GM. He did abandon the children when he left the country to live and work in Israel. Skype, while nice, is a poor excuse for hands on person to person parenting. To see/spend time with his children sometime in June when they are out of school is also not ideal. Also it isn't going to cause the children to believe their father truly loves them and cares about them. If one has been an absentee parent for years, by their own choice, then one can't expect to have a great relationship with their children. Raising children is not an easy job and it should not be the responsibility of just one parent to make sure the children have a loving good relationship with the other parent.

In one hearing mom's lawyer said something to the judge about father speaking in Hebrew to the children during a visit in which he threatened them. The judge ruled in a motion that the children would be spoken to in English only during visits. This tells me that dad did in fact speak in Hebrew to the children although the one supervising the visit may not know exactly what was said. If it was something that was completely innocent, then why not say it in English?

At this point I am for the children and what is best for them. Having a relationship with their dad is not something they want. I don't blame them. As an adult I would feel abandoned if my dad took off to Israel knowing he would rarely see me, so I can only imagine how children would feel about it.

MOO

 

[MyBelle]

This is a very complex case. Both sides have done wrong. IMO - it could appear that dad put his job above his kids, so I get that they felt abandoned and had resentment towards him. The mother failed by not supporting his requests to see his kids.

If for some reason I had to be physically separated from my kids, and their father was not supporting my visits and in fact was contributing to their reluctance to see me, I would not be able to just walk away and let them think I didn't want to see them.

As far as the kids having the right to make that decision, I have to disagree. Especially with supervised visits. Suppose your kids are with the other parent and they don't want to see you. Could you really accept that?

Children are not allowed to make a lot of choices - schooling, medical care, curfews, etc. In some cases, they are required to visit parents in prison. Why should they be able to decide to cut a parent out of their life.

You are right. Children have never been allowed to make the choice about custody. Their wishes can be taken into consideration but if the parents refuse to work it out between themselves, the judge does decide and one of the parents is usually not happy with the outcome.

JMO

 

[wendiesan]

And who appointed the GAL?

For example, Gorcyca’s Manson metaphor, however intemperate, was not original. It was first evoked by William Lansat, the veteran Birmingham attorney who Gorcyca appointed to look out for the Tsimhoni children’s best interests in 2010 after their parents and a succession of mediators failed to reach an accommodation on the father’s parenting time.

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/brian-dickerson/2015/07/10/jailed-kids-judge/29998085/

 

[wendiesan]

Has anyone discovered if the therapists to whom the children were assigned specialized in "Attachment Therapy?"

 

[Margo/Mom]

When reading the transcripts of the hearings it is easy, for me, to see why the children and their mom don't trust the judgment of the judge and/or the GAL. During one hearing the judge stated that she already had the motion before her and had started signing her name before even hearing what the mom/her lawyers had to say about it. The mom is always wrong, no matter what, according to the judge. The mom "doesn't get it" according to the judge/GAL.

The father did, even if he doesn't want to admit it, put his job and himself above his wife and children when he took the job in Israel with GM. He did abandon the children when he left the country to live and work in Israel. Skype, while nice, is a poor excuse for hands on person to person parenting. To see/spend time with his children sometime in June when they are out of school is also not ideal. Also it isn't going to cause the children to believe their father truly loves them and cares about them. If one has been an absentee parent for years, by their own choice, then one can't expect to have a great relationship with their children. Raising children is not an easy job and it should not be the responsibility of just one parent to make sure the children have a loving good relationship with the other parent.

In one hearing mom's lawyer said something to the judge about father speaking in Hebrew to the children during a visit in which he threatened them. The judge ruled in a motion that the children would be spoken to in English only during visits. This tells me that dad did in fact speak in Hebrew to the children although the one supervising the visit may not know exactly what was said. If it was something that was completely innocent, then why not say it in English?

At this point I am for the children and what is best for them. Having a relationship with their dad is not something they want. I don't blame them. As an adult I would feel abandoned if my dad took off to Israel knowing he would rarely see me, so I can only imagine how children would feel about it.

MOO

Your facts are off. The family initially moved to Israel to follow dad's job. Mom then took the kids (apparently while dad was not at home) and returned to the US, where she filed for divorce. Dad did attempt to gain custody of the children in Israel (where the benefits include closer access to both sets of grandparents), but the court ruled against him--on the grounds that the children had a longer history in the US--while also expressing skepticism regarding the cases of both parents.

And it fact, the degree of Dad's absenteeism has been heavily influenced by Mom's actions in refusing to allow Dad's parenting time (as ordered by the court) while here in the US). It would also appear that there have been profound efforts by Mom to influence the kids' beliefs and attitudes toward their dad. The 2010 incident in the park may have played multiple ways, but it certainly raises questions about why Mom was hovering there at all, and indeed telling the children to get in the car, lock the doors and call 911--particularly as the police on arrival found no evidence (bruising, marks, other evidence of injuries) of assault. Couple that with Mom's failure to follow through on a request to the court for an order of protection and this single incident looks very weak.

There is also apparently an additional incident of Mom taking one of the kids to the ER this year, following a supervised visitation, and claiming not only that there was an assault by Dad, but also that the assault was witnessed by the parental visitation supervisor, who did nothing.

Looking over a long history, I have a very difficult time with your conclusions that Dad abandoned his family. I can only hope that when these children are grown they are able to appreciate the enormous efforts by their father to remain in their lives--despite equally enormous efforts by their mother to keep him out.

 

[Margo/Mom]

Has anyone discovered if the therapists to whom the children were assigned specialized in "Attachment Therapy?"

I don't see any reason that attachment therapy would be warranted--unless there are some massive undisclosed issues from their early lives.

Attachment disorder results from instances of extreme cruelty, abuse, or parental absence at a very young age that prevent the infant/young child from bonding with a parent/caregiver.

 

[jjenny]

Your facts are off. The family initially moved to Israel to follow dad's job. Mom then took the kids (apparently while dad was not at home) and returned to the US, where she filed for divorce. Dad did attempt to gain custody of the children in Israel (where the benefits include closer access to both sets of grandparents), but the court ruled against him--on the grounds that the children had a longer history in the US--while also expressing skepticism regarding the cases of both parents.
...

Father accepted a job in Israel. His wife didn't want to move there. She eventually relented, moved there for a short period of time with the children, but then moved back to US.

 

[KaaBoom]

I can only hope that when these children are grown they are able to appreciate the enormous efforts by their father to remain in their lives--despite equally enormous efforts by their mother to keep him out.

Well, that will be their choice when they are grown up. But if it was me, and my dad had me taken away from my mother and had me thrown in juvenile lockup, it would be an easy choice. I would never talk to him again ever, and if he even tried to contact me, I would tell him to **** off.

 

[TorisMom003]

The family was living in the US when dad accepted the job in Israel. Mom didn't want to move with him so she and the kids stayed here. Mom filed for divorce, they worked things out enough that mom and kids moved to Israel to be with dad. Things apparently did not get better so mom and kids moved back to US where she went through with the divorce.

In the interview dad did with media he did not dispute the above.

The kids are US citizens, born and raised here. That was one of the main reasons why Israel had no control over mom bringing the kids back to the US. Mom and kids were abandoned by dad when he put himself before them.

I stand by my opinion of what I have said. While mom may not be the best parent there is, she is there for the kids and raised the kids while dad was doing as he wished in Israel. Dad was an absentee parent and bears a lot of the blame for the way his children react to him himself. While mom may not be the best choice of all parents, in this case between these two parents, she is what is best for the children. Telling children to get over their father abandoning them and to have a good relationship with a man that once again decided his work was more important than them is NOT going to cause them to want to be around him when he finally decides to show back up.

MOO

 

[Margo/Mom]

Father accepted a job in Israel. His wife didn't want to move there. She eventually relented, moved there for a short period of time with the children, but then moved back to US.

Yes, jjenny. Families face these kinds of decisions all the time. In the context of healthy adult relationships there are frequently trade-offs. The fact that the adults in this case were not on the same page is not an indication that one or both of them did not have the best interests of the children at heart. The father saw a benefit to being closer to both sets of grandparents. The mother did not want her career to be interrupted (and I would argue that parental career goals frequently offer benefits to the children, not only in terms of dollars earned, but also in terms of setting role examples, etc). I am quite certain that there were multiple advantages to both the US and Israel in terms of educational support, socialization, a good many other considerations.

My conjecture at this point--and this is purely conjecture, my own opinion--is that Mom, like many adults, did not wish a divorce so much as she wanted to leverage changes in her husband or the situation. And while her ex-husband has apparently moved on, relationship-wise, she remains deeply enmeshed in the marital relationship, using her considerable influence on her children in order to leverage something that is no longer possible or attainable. Or, perhaps in realizing that she can no longer attain what she had hoped for is now locked into a crusade to punish her ex-husband for not responding as she had wished.

 

[Margo/Mom]

Well, that will be their choice when they are grown up. But if it was me, and my dad had me taken away from my mother and had me thrown in juvenile lockup, it would be an easy choice. I would never talk to him again ever, and if he even tried to contact me, I would tell him to **** off.

That is an absolute twisting of the facts.

 

[MyBelle]

The family was living in the US when dad accepted the job in Israel. Mom didn't want to move with him so she and the kids stayed here. Mom filed for divorce, they worked things out enough that mom and kids moved to Israel to be with dad. Things apparently did not get better so mom and kids moved back to US where she went through with the divorce.

In the interview dad did with media he did not dispute the above.

The kids are US citizens, born and raised here. That was one of the main reasons why Israel had no control over mom bringing the kids back to the US. Mom and kids were abandoned by dad when he put himself before them.

I stand by my opinion of what I have said. While mom may not be the best parent there is, she is there for the kids and raised the kids while dad was doing as he wished in Israel. Dad was an absentee parent and bears a lot of the blame for the way his children react to him himself. While mom may not be the best choice of all parents, in this case between these two parents, she is what is best for the children. Telling children to get over their father abandoning them and to have a good relationship with a man that once again decided his work was more important than them is NOT going to cause them to want to be around him when he finally decides to show back up.

MOO

BBM. Not true. Mom & children moved to Israel with the father. She filed for divorce AFTER she returned to the U.S. with the children. The father didn't abandon the children or their mother. She is the one who filed for divorce and she could have done so in Israel. All of this has been reported in the media.

But parental alienation is real, said John Langlois, president of Dads and Moms of Michigan, a nonprofit group that offers support to families where parents have separated.

"Love cannot be court-ordered, but respect for elders is something that all children should have," said Langlois, who attended the hearing after he heard about the case and spoke with Tsimhoni on the phone. "Children that are alienated from one parent or another suffer great problems later on in life, and he's fighting to prevent that."

Langlois said the children would likely need therapy to reestablish a relationship with their father, but that could be done over time.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/07/20/jailed-kids-hearing/30412597/

 

[sorrell skye]

The mother is the one who chose not to follow court orders. Her own actions necessitated additional visits to court so of course the Judge is going to make her pay for it. Not sure why you think the father should pay for her refusal to follow court orders because it has never worked that way and hopefully never will.

All this sympathy toward the abusive mother is baffling considering the very real damage she's inflicted upon 3 children.

JMO

BBM

I think that if Judge Gorcyca hadn't verbally abused the children in court in the manner in which she did, but had spoken to them respectfully (rather than treating them like hardened criminals), this case wouldn't have been cast into the national spotlight. Furthermore, if Judge Gorcyca hadn't sentenced the children to the juvenile facility, news of the judge's outrageous actions wouldn't have been picked up by the MSM.

IMO, the public's sympathy has primarily been toward the children, and as time has gone by and folks have learned how the father abandoned his children back in 2008-2009 to pursue a career overseas, and as folks have read recent and previous court transcripts, the sympathy toward the children has increased.

If the judge hadn't punished the children for whatever transgressions she believed the mother had committed, it's likely none of us here would have ever heard about this case.

 

[sorrell skye]

The family was living in the US when dad accepted the job in Israel. Mom didn't want to move with him so she and the kids stayed here. Mom filed for divorce, they worked things out enough that mom and kids moved to Israel to be with dad. Things apparently did not get better so mom and kids moved back to US where she went through with the divorce.

In the interview dad did with media he did not dispute the above.

The kids are US citizens, born and raised here. That was one of the main reasons why Israel had no control over mom bringing the kids back to the US. Mom and kids were abandoned by dad when he put himself before them.

I stand by my opinion of what I have said. While mom may not be the best parent there is, she is there for the kids and raised the kids while dad was doing as he wished in Israel. Dad was an absentee parent and bears a lot of the blame for the way his children react to him himself. While mom may not be the best choice of all parents, in this case between these two parents, she is what is best for the children. Telling children to get over their father abandoning them and to have a good relationship with a man that once again decided his work was more important than them is NOT going to cause them to want to be around him when he finally decides to show back up.

MOO

BBM

I completely agree.

I know a woman who abandoned her son when he was young. His father and grandparents raised him. Later, when she decided that it was convenient for her to have a relationship with her grandchildren (her son's children), her son made it clear that she had forfeited any possible relationship with either him or with his children.

Before people make their choices, they need to seriously consider the long-term consequences and determine whether or not they can live with those choices - if not, they need to make different choices.