Missouri - The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #7

[Missouri Mule]

I agree that that angle should by no means be ruled out. But before you put that theory at the top of the list, all of the other suspects, who were closer to he women, had potential motives.......some of the people I've listed.....should be examined much deeper.

Absolutely they should. But if the obvious suspects can be ruled out and there are none left, we have to look outside the group for new suspects.

As you may or may not know, I have been going through nearly 50,000 posts on on another forum. While doing so I happened to run across a statement by one of the obvious suspects and I will tell you that it was very disturbing because of the connotations that it implied.

At a minimum, the SPD has a horrible public image it will have to rehabilitate over decades that need not have been if it was properly investigated from the outset. Even the prosecutor was horrified at what he saw on the program and how it opened up the very real possibility of lawsuits. In perfect hindsight, those lawsuits should have been pursued because the picture it painted was personally damaging to certain people's reputations.

I recall the first time I saw the "48 Hour" program and the detective said there was nothing to work with, yet the SPD had talked to psychics, tarot card readers and weirdos and we were told the detective said he was looking at "wing tipped shoes." My response was "are you kidding me?" A greater population of over 250,000 residents and there is nothing to work with. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.

 

[Catmommy]

Who had the most to gain? Who had the most to lose? Was there a random sexual serial killer? Rogue cop? Anything is possible but what is the most probable? The door was opened for someone who was recognized. There was more than one person and that is how the three women were controlled and removed. It was someone familiar with the area and that is why the bodies have never been found. Narrow it down. And when you see hoof prints don't look for zebras.

 

[marble]

The door was opened for someone who was recognized.

That's conjecture, not fact.

There are a whole lot of potential ways the killer could have gotten into the house without breaking in, many of which have been discussed already in these threads.

 

[MooseMeMuch]

That's conjecture, not fact.

There are a whole lot of potential ways the killer could have gotten into the house without breaking in, many of which have been discussed already in these threads.

Exactly. Not a 'fact', that we know of, and I read on this thread, one about the mother and daughter murdered by a total stranger who talked himself into their home. 30 mins from the son talking to the mom and finding them murdered. Scary stuff!

 

[MooseMeMuch]

Absolutely they should. But if the obvious suspects can be ruled out and there are none left, we have to look outside the group for new suspects.

As you may or may not know, I have been going through nearly 50,000 posts on on another forum. While doing so I happened to run across a statement by one of the obvious suspects and I will tell you that it was very disturbing because of the connotations that it implied.

At a minimum, the SPD has a horrible public image it will have to rehabilitate over decades that need not have been if it was properly investigated from the outset. Even the prosecutor was horrified at what he saw on the program and how it opened up the very real possibility of lawsuits. In perfect hindsight, those lawsuits should have been pursued because the picture it painted was personally damaging to certain people's reputations.

I recall the first time I saw the "48 Hour" program and the detective said there was nothing to work with, yet the SPD had talked to psychics, tarot card readers and weirdos and we were told the detective said he was looking at "wing tipped shoes." My response was "are you kidding me?" A greater population of over 250,000 residents and there is nothing to work with. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.

Exactly. An example of The SPDs total refusal to drill, a not that large of a hole, in the Cox parking garage but totally went to Psychics for answers 'smells rotten' to me. They believe in Psychics but not GPR findings...does not 'make sense' to me.

And yes, personally damaging and caused greater hardships to include the 'persons of interest'.

 

[Raven_Belle]

Hey everyone!

I just wanted to hop in and say hey. I'm a long time stalker of this thread (as in, 10 years or so), but have always just enjoyed reading and never made a WS account. I made an account to comment on the current Savannah Leckie case, so I thought that I would tell y'all hi and introduce myself in case I decide to participate in this discussion, also. I am from Springfield, and have followed this case since it happened. It haunts me, as it was not far from my and some of my closest friends' homes. I remember going hiking in the areas around Springfield that summer following the disappearance, and always keeping my eyes open in the underbrush because we all knew that the police were basically just hoping to find bodies at that point. It just feels so personal being something that happened in your neighborhood, you know?

Anyway, sorry to interrupt your conversation with a ramble, just wanted to introduce myself.
-Raven

 

[Missouri Mule]

Hey everyone!

I just wanted to hop in and say hey. I'm a long time stalker of this thread (as in, 10 years or so), but have always just enjoyed reading and never made a WS account. I made an account to comment on the current Savannah Leckie case, so I thought that I would tell y'all hi and introduce myself in case I decide to participate in this discussion, also. I am from Springfield, and have followed this case since it happened. It haunts me, as it was not far from my and some of my closest friends' homes. I remember going hiking in the areas around Springfield that summer following the disappearance, and always keeping my eyes open in the underbrush because we all knew that the police were basically just hoping to find bodies at that point. It just feels so personal being something that happened in your neighborhood, you know?

Anyway, sorry to interrupt your conversation with a ramble, just wanted to introduce myself.
-Raven

Glad to see your participation. As they say, "fresh eyes" are always welcome.

I lived in and around Springfield for 26 years. Although I was out of town during the time the crime occurred I got very much immersed in the case after I returned from vacation.

I have expressed my own views of what happened. Do you have a theory you could share with us? TIA.

 

[Raven_Belle]

Glad to see your participation.
I have expressed my own views of what happened. Do you have a theory you could share with us? TIA.

You know, I don't have an airtight theory. Just some opinions.

I think the graverobbers are a dead end, which I think is an opinion shared by the majority of those who follow this case. I think that the ONLY way that they could be relevant is IF one of them was involved in either drug trade or a gang, and there was a fear that SS's testimony would lead to deeper problems. To my knowledge, none of those 3 have ever been linked to a gang or drug ring, and I think this particular theory is one of the lesser likely ones. Even if this were the case, surely whoever would have been after SS would have had a chance to get to her more easily at some point while she was alone, rather than risk breaking into a house with a driveway full of cars. I just don't really buy this theory. I mean, it is always fishy when someone who is scheduled to be a witness for a trial goes missing shortly before the trial, but that being said, this isn't in my top list of theories.

I've always been intrigued by the fact that SG knew enough "withheld" details about the case that he was so readily believed and that gag orders were issued surrounding some of the investigations that came as a result of his tips. I don't necessarily believe that he did it, but I do think that maybe he had contact with someone who was involved, and therefore had at least some real information.

I think GC could possibly be a good fit. The rumors that he and SL had dated (or at least had some form of relationship) combined with his history of violence towards women definitely puts him on my short list. He also had some pretty sketchy people in his employ at the time of the crime. Had he needed help, I don't think he would have had much difficulty finding someone in his circle to pay off to do so.

Edited to add: I find the link between GC and SG through Dykes fascinating, especially when you start digging about some of the places where the police searched and how they can be directly tied back to this trio. I think that could possibly explain a few things, and while I think that maybe some of this has gotten derailed into the realm of fantasy and conjecture in the past (those who read on other message boards know what I'm talking about!), I have no problem with the idea that there could be some genuine information there.

I've gone back and forth on RCC. I think most of what he has said it just blowing hot air and toying with LE. At this point, I just don't think he was involved.

So, all of that to say that I don't necessarily think I have a scenario put together that involves a hard view on one of the top suspects. But, I do think I have some theories on WHAT happened that night, even though maybe not WHO.

I think that SL was the intended target. To me, this is all that makes sense. SS was not supposed to be home that night. SM was only there after a convoluted series of events. I don't think either of them being targets makes sense. If someone was after SS, why not wait until she was alone rather than break into a house with a driveway full of cars? Same for SM. I would think if someone was following SM and after her, seeing her go into a house accompanied by a friend while seeing other cars in the driveway would not strike them as being the prime opportunity to take her. I think that the most likely scenario is that the perp was already in the home with SL under control when the girls got home (this would make sense that the perp had entered and gained control while SL was home alone, a much more opportune situation for a crime than a house with a driveway full of cars), and the girls then became collateral damage. It would make sense that they went to SS's room and got ready for bed, maybe were even laying in bed talking (since some reports stated that the bed looked slept in) while SL was restrained in her bedroom. I don't imagine this would have been difficult, as the perp could have told her that if she was quiet, they would leave after the girls went to bed, but if she made noise her daughter would be killed. In that scenario, either SS heard something and went to check, or she decided to go peek in and tell her mom that she had decided to come home with a friend since the plan had been for her to spend the night with someone. At that point, the perp just needs to have the gun to SL's head and say that they are all going to leave quietly and go somewhere to talk, and if anyone decides not to cooperate, mom dies. The idea that one person with one gun could have had control over all 3 of them no longer becomes difficult in that scenario.

I don't think they were killed in the house. I don't think their bodies are buried in concrete at a construction site (hiding 3 bodies in the middle of town at a construction site would have just been too risky). I think the bodies were either dumped in the woods somewhere (we have no shortage of dense woodland!) or in one of the many lakes around and sunk using cement.

Lastly, I do think that LE knows (or at least is 99% sure) about what happened and just can't prove it. We KNOW that there is information about the case they haven't made public. I think the case is, for the most part, "solved" but not prove-able. I think they are waiting for someone to come forward with something that would let them bridge that gap. Perhaps that is why, after all these years, there is still some information being kept from the public. Still relevant details that have not been discussed despite the recent 20th and 25th anniversary specials that have aired locally. I do know for a fact(as I said, I'm new to commenting, so I'm not sure how much detail I'm allowed to give with this type of stuff) that some of the rumors about SL going around at that time regarding some of the things she was involved in were thoroughly investigated and that the rabbit trail from that investigation did give LE some interesting information (please know that I'm not trying to paint SL in a bad light at all or accusing her of anything). It is one of those things where I have been involved in conversations with people who were part of some early questioning, so that's how I know some of what questions were asked and what information was gained. I'm not trying to make it sound like I have some sort of inside information, because I don't, it is just that one of my circles of people involve a couple of individuals who were, sadly, only one step removed from this case.

That got really long and not all that helpful, but that is the basics of where I land with this as of today.

 

[monkeymann]

Question: How are GC and RD connected to SG? And how do the places LE searched have any connection to GC or RD.

Personally, I think the 3MW crime has some connection to SG. I also believe that SG came to know SS & SL through DR who knew SG.

Remember It was SG who provided LE with information that had not been released to the public, which led LE to the Robb farm search.

And we all know what SG did to that poor college girl about 1-yr after the 3MW crime.

 

[monkeymann]

Exactly. An example of The SPDs total refusal to drill, a not that large of a hole, in the Cox parking garage but totally went to Psychics for answers 'smells rotten' to me. They believe in Psychics but not GPR findings...does not 'make sense' to me.

And yes, personally damaging and caused greater hardships to include the 'persons of interest'.

Who said they "Believed" the psychics. Police have utililzed psychics many many times over history. Some have had some success, but most not so much. But its not that uncommon.

But in order to drill they would require a search warrant, even if the Hospital gave them permission, without a search warrant stating their "Probable Cause", anything that they may have found would very much have the possibility of becoming "Fruit of the poison tree", and not be allowed into evidence.

 

[monkeymann]

Who said they "Believed" the psychics. Police have utililzed psychics many many times over history. Some have had some success, but most not so much. But its not that uncommon.

But in order to drill they would require a search warrant, even if the Hospital gave them permission, without a search warrant stating their "Probable Cause", anything that they may have found would very much have the possibility of becoming "Fruit of the poison tree", and not be allowed into evidence.

Consider this: What lead police to the parking garage? A psychic, and a man with a "Long Range Metal Locator"....which have been proven to be bogus. They guy said it could detect tooth fillings from long distances away.

Then you have the anomalies in the cement......which could be being caused by plant and back fill matter.....as stated by Rick Norland the man who conducted the scan.

Did he scan the rest of the parking garage to see If these anomalies were a common occurrence......no he didn't.

So, with all that said, there is no wonder police have no interest, nor legal authority minus a search warrant, stating their Probable Cause, signed by a judge.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Note to anyone. Be sure to clear you private messages periodically. PM's bouncing.

200 is the max.

 

[Missouri Mule]

You know, I don't have an airtight theory. Just some opinions.

I think the graverobbers are a dead end, which I think is an opinion shared by the majority of those who follow this case. I think that the ONLY way that they could be relevant is IF one of them was involved in either drug trade or a gang, and there was a fear that SS's testimony would lead to deeper problems. To my knowledge, none of those 3 have ever been linked to a gang or drug ring, and I think this particular theory is one of the lesser likely ones. Even if this were the case, surely whoever would have been after SS would have had a chance to get to her more easily at some point while she was alone, rather than risk breaking into a house with a driveway full of cars. I just don't really buy this theory. I mean, it is always fishy when someone who is scheduled to be a witness for a trial goes missing shortly before the trial, but that being said, this isn't in my top list of theories.

I've always been intrigued by the fact that SG knew enough "withheld" details about the case that he was so readily believed and that gag orders were issued surrounding some of the investigations that came as a result of his tips. I don't necessarily believe that he did it, but I do think that maybe he had contact with someone who was involved, and therefore had at least some real information.

I think GC could possibly be a good fit. The rumors that he and SL had dated (or at least had some form of relationship) combined with his history of violence towards women definitely puts him on my short list. He also had some pretty sketchy people in his employ at the time of the crime. Had he needed help, I don't think he would have had much difficulty finding someone in his circle to pay off to do so.

Edited to add: I find the link between GC and SG through Dykes fascinating, especially when you start digging about some of the places where the police searched and how they can be directly tied back to this trio. I think that could possibly explain a few things, and while I think that maybe some of this has gotten derailed into the realm of fantasy and conjecture in the past (those who read on other message boards know what I'm talking about!), I have no problem with the idea that there could be some genuine information there.

I've gone back and forth on RCC. I think most of what he has said it just blowing hot air and toying with LE. At this point, I just don't think he was involved.

So, all of that to say that I don't necessarily think I have a scenario put together that involves a hard view on one of the top suspects. But, I do think I have some theories on WHAT happened that night, even though maybe not WHO.

I think that SL was the intended target. To me, this is all that makes sense. SS was not supposed to be home that night. SM was only there after a convoluted series of events. I don't think either of them being targets makes sense. If someone was after SS, why not wait until she was alone rather than break into a house with a driveway full of cars? Same for SM. I would think if someone was following SM and after her, seeing her go into a house accompanied by a friend while seeing other cars in the driveway would not strike them as being the prime opportunity to take her. I think that the most likely scenario is that the perp was already in the home with SL under control when the girls got home (this would make sense that the perp had entered and gained control while SL was home alone, a much more opportune situation for a crime than a house with a driveway full of cars), and the girls then became collateral damage. It would make sense that they went to SS's room and got ready for bed, maybe were even laying in bed talking (since some reports stated that the bed looked slept in) while SL was restrained in her bedroom. I don't imagine this would have been difficult, as the perp could have told her that if she was quiet, they would leave after the girls went to bed, but if she made noise her daughter would be killed. In that scenario, either SS heard something and went to check, or she decided to go peek in and tell her mom that she had decided to come home with a friend since the plan had been for her to spend the night with someone. At that point, the perp just needs to have the gun to SL's head and say that they are all going to leave quietly and go somewhere to talk, and if anyone decides not to cooperate, mom dies. The idea that one person with one gun could have had control over all 3 of them no longer becomes difficult in that scenario.

I don't think they were killed in the house. I don't think their bodies are buried in concrete at a construction site (hiding 3 bodies in the middle of town at a construction site would have just been too risky). I think the bodies were either dumped in the woods somewhere (we have no shortage of dense woodland!) or in one of the many lakes around and sunk using cement.

Lastly, I do think that LE knows (or at least is 99% sure) about what happened and just can't prove it. We KNOW that there is information about the case they haven't made public. I think the case is, for the most part, "solved" but not prove-able. I think they are waiting for someone to come forward with something that would let them bridge that gap. Perhaps that is why, after all these years, there is still some information being kept from the public. Still relevant details that have not been discussed despite the recent 20th and 25th anniversary specials that have aired locally. I do know for a fact(as I said, I'm new to commenting, so I'm not sure how much detail I'm allowed to give with this type of stuff) that some of the rumors about SL going around at that time regarding some of the things she was involved in were thoroughly investigated and that the rabbit trail from that investigation did give LE some interesting information (please know that I'm not trying to paint SL in a bad light at all or accusing her of anything). It is one of those things where I have been involved in conversations with people who were part of some early questioning, so that's how I know some of what questions were asked and what information was gained. I'm not trying to make it sound like I have some sort of inside information, because I don't, it is just that one of my circles of people involve a couple of individuals who were, sadly, only one step removed from this case.

That got really long and not all that helpful, but that is the basics of where I land with this as of today.

I think you are right on most conclusions.

But I am not convinced the cops have solved the case. Just don't.

 

[monkeymann]

Question: How are GC and RD connected to SG? And how do the places LE searched have any connection to GC or RD.

Personally, I think the 3MW crime has some connection to SG. I also believe that SG came to know SS & SL through DR who knew SG.

Remember It was SG who provided LE with information that had not been released to the public, which led LE to the Robb farm search.

And we all know what SG did to that poor college girl about 1-yr after the 3MW crime.

Then address these issues Richard...........................

 

[Raven_Belle]

Question: How are GC and RD connected to SG? And how do the places LE searched have any connection to GC or RD.

So, this is why I did this as a secondary edit and not part of my original thing, because it isn't anything concrete, just a loose connection based on local reputation/rumor (keep in mind that my family has been in the Springfield area for generations, so this comes down to "well someone said that his friend saw so and so with so and so" type of thing). I am NOT claiming this is a concrete connection, again, just a possible one based on what I've heard. There have been a few people who have given some pretty interesting stories about SG and RD running in similar circles related to a motorcycle group/gang/club in the area. So that covers the two of them. Then, RD is known to have worked for one of GC's businesses for awhile. Again, no evidence that they had any sort of close relationship, and they may have never even met beyond a first introduction, but it is a loose link. The relationship between RD and search sites is that there is D family property that is VERY close to the Robb farm that was searched. And, again local rumor, there were maybe some sites that were quietly searched (i.e., not announced that they had been searched widely in local media), that can be linked back to members of that same motorcycle group/gang/club.

So, see, I told you they were loose and not concrete connections! I wouldn't put my money on any of them being 100% true (again, local rumor), but I think they are all plausible enough to be interesting!

Remember It was SG who provided LE with information that had not been released to the public, which led LE to the Robb farm search.

Oh yeah. I think SG either had something to do with it or legitimately knows something.

 

[Raven_Belle]

Oh, and just to add, I know that in the past, some of the conversations about this case have gotten VERY derailed with crazy discussions about RD and his family. I'm not trying to do that at all. And again, I'm not 100% convinced that those connections are solid. Like I said originally, I just think that the possible connection between these guys (even though it is based on local rumor) is an interesting layer, especially since both SG and GC have looked pretty suspicious from multiple angles.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Oh, and just to add, I know that in the past, some of the conversations about this case have gotten VERY derailed with crazy discussions about RD and his family. I'm not trying to do that at all. And again, I'm not 100% convinced that those connections are solid. Like I said originally, I just think that the possible connection between these guys (even though it is based on local rumor) is an interesting layer, especially since both SG and GC have looked pretty suspicious from multiple angles.

Gerald Carnahan should always be considered a person of interest until the case is solved. I'm much less convinced of SG's involvement.

I'm not going to name the sources but I have been advised several times that SG was not involved on the front end. I respect those sources. No one seems to know much about GC as to this crime. He was of course known to be Jackie Johns killer. That was an open secret throughout the Ozarks. I have commented on GC several times in other forums that I worked with his wife for several years. I just never heard anything that tied this case to him. I do know that he is reported to have threatened to kill anyone who ratted him out.

I just can't wrap my mind about SG's involvement. If he is he is one very good liar, and I speak from first hand knowledge. Personally, I doubt any of the so-called "GJ3" had anything to do with this crime. But that is my opinion. My only interest is in seeing this case come to a successful conclusion and we can all get on with our lives. I so hate this case.

I seriously doubt that RD had anything to do with this crime as well. Only one of the Rogersville clan is alive today. He should, IMO, be in play.

My personal opinion is that all of these digs in Webster County is a lot of malarkey. Made for good headlines but led nowhere. But as I say, that is my personal opinion.

 

[Raven_Belle]

I see where you are coming from. If there were easy answers to any of these questions, they would have been found by now. With GC, I had really hoped when he got his life sentence for JJ, that if he knew ANYTHING about the 3MW that he might try to leverage that info for a trade for a chance at parole. That was wishful thinking, but I had high hopes that it maybe could play out that way.

 

[Missouri Mule]

I see where you are coming from. If there were easy answers to any of these questions, they would have been found by now. With GC, I had really hoped when he got his life sentence for JJ, that if he knew ANYTHING about the 3MW that he might try to leverage that info for a trade for a chance at parole. That was wishful thinking, but I had high hopes that it maybe could play out that way.

From what I gather his health is not good, reportedly diabetic and grossly overweight. I can't imagine him ever being turned loose no matter what he gives up.

But is not as though the police didn't take a serious look at him. Plus his wife certainly must have suspected if not actually knew important facts, if in fact he was somehow involved. But nothing leaked out over a period of several years when I worked in or about her office. Her daughter of course was his alibi witness on the "tampering with evidence" charge that he wiggled off the hook. It seems unlikely based on my knowledge. But as to other unexplained deaths, I wouldn't put anything past him. I was introduced one time to him in the elevator in the state office building. I gritted my teeth and said something acknowledging him.

As a further note, the state office building was located next to the old Heer's department store. A group of us would usually go over there on the mezzanine level to have coffee and do-nuts during our morning break. I am told the salon was over there for a while before moving to its current location. I may have seen Sherrill but I have no remembrance. All I recall are some nearby boutique type businesses. It is plausible that he may have run into her over there but his name does not appear on the list of 221 names from her rolodex file (I have copies of the names) nor the two co-workers who also frequented her just days before they went missing. It is impossible to know for certain. I tend to rule him out as a realistic suspect. But I certainly wouldn't rule him out completely.

My great fear is that it is plausible the top directors of this case made up their minds a long time ago that pointed to a certain person or persons. The problem with that is if they are wrong, all this time will have been taken up looking at the "bright shiny object" instead of expending shoe leather and interviewing people who could have moved this case to an early conclusion.

It is not as though they were unaware of the mess in Rogersville and the coming mess in Webster County where the Attorney General, later to become Governor Jay Nixon went to court to strip the sheriff of his LE credentials. As I have been told by someone who I believe to be reliable, he was the one ram rodding the investigation.

A lot of people don't want to believe that there can't be corruption within a police department. The fact is that is not always the case. Just because they are wearing the uniform, have a badge and gun doesn't make them infallible.

Not to put too fine a point on this but I believe if one looks at the original police report and sees who signed off on that report, there is a history worth knowing about. (if same person as appears to be.)

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdmo/p...officer-sentenced-child-*advertiser censored*

I would also note that while the profiler gave the impression that some unknowing participants went along for the ride and are now wallowing in guilt there is no real evidence that is true. Additionally, one report had it that they admitted (I do not have the reference for that allegation) that there may in fact be a serial killer or an unknown stalker. I wouldn't rule that possibility out.

 

[monkeymann]

I see where you are coming from. If there were easy answers to any of these questions, they would have been found by now. With GC, I had really hoped when he got his life sentence for JJ, that if he knew ANYTHING about the 3MW that he might try to leverage that info for a trade for a chance at parole. That was wishful thinking, but I had high hopes that it maybe could play out that way.

I think it's highly unlikely that GC had anything to do with the 3MW crime. It doesn't fit his M.O. He was excessively violent with JJ's murder, and sloppy about his disposal of her body, as well as leaving evidence behind.

SG on the other hand, had a very long criminal history, broke into the college students house to sexually assault her for hours at knife point, he stole money from her, and he did that crime at 4am, which also shows a pattern of him being out and about stalking people in the early morning hours.

Also, his girlfriend when he was arrested during the standoff after he walked away from his "Honor Camp" week before he was scheduled to be released, was about 12yrs younger than he was, SS and SM were 15 and 16yrs younger than he was, which also shows his patterns. The college student was about 15yrs younger than he was also.

SG also wasn't on LE's radar right out of the gate either, which may have hindered solving case.