Found Deceased MN - Alayna Ertl, 5, Watkins, 20 Aug 2016 *Arrest*

[hokeechic]

I can say from dealing with my ex husband that some people can go a long time, years or a whole adult lifetime behaving very poorly, being violent abusive people and committing actual crimes. These same said people can go to court and plea down charges for a whole variety of reasons.

After having many years of dealings with my ex where he continually kept getting away with really unbelievable behavior, always just under the radar, always JUST to that line in the sand; m y lawyer told me to my face bluntly; "It's not illegal to be an @$$hole."

We have a court system where I live that loves to hand out 'no same or similar in one year' and the charges are DROPPED and do NOT remain on the person's record. Serious things like domestic violence and violating restraining orders.

Someone's public criminal record often does not give an accurate picture of the true scum sucking parasite they are in 'real life'. My guess is that is the case here with this individual.

Some people, (and that's what I'm thinking with this dude) have developed an identity that helps them HIDE who they really are. They develop the dumble dorf, innocent pudge identity, who me? I'm not responsible for my own traffic tickets. Who me? I cannot manage to pay my car insurance. I'm just an innocent pudge, fat boy with a stupid look on my face.

All the while underneath that they are far smarter than they put on.

We can sit and review the data, wonder and scratch our heads but because we are not homicidal sexual child predators; we all will NEVER understand what went through this sick b@a$!ard's brain when he did this. There is simply no explanation for it, no understanding it, no justification for it can ever be found.

This guy worked with the dad, went and played softball with the dad, sat up and talked with the dad up until just mere hours until he stole this man's child from her own house with her pink Disney blanket and then did unspeakable things to her, then took her life. As I sit here typing this it's beyond my comprehension that there are human beings living among us who do this.

You hit the nail on the head. You described my ex to T. And i bet ZA as well.... my ex was diagnosed with narcissitic personality disorder NPD while we were going to marriage counseling together. We had two therapists who counseled us separately and jointly. My individual therapist told me that in about 1-5% of cases of NPD, there are individuals who cant be helped or refuse to be helped. She thought my ex fell in that category and against her own normal practice, advised me of filing for divorce. She said her business is in healing marriages not breaking them up, but folks like that either continue using you to their advantage, which was the case for me, or they begin abusing you... to some measure my ex had already began emotionally abusing me.... but leaving was the best thing i could do for my sanity. I have a child with him which makes me terrified bc technically he has every legal right to see his son. But i am always scared of what he might do, sexually or violently. He just has this air about him. NPD people can fool people for years, making themselves appear one way and deep down being totally different. There are many good books, one titled wizard of Oz and other narcissists, about this if anyones ever interested. Anyway, ZA comes off much like that.... gregarious, mommys boy (like my ex), using people (a place to crash) etc, but deep down they are pathetic, hateful creatures.... Scary scary.

 

[NewMama]

It's just so horrifying to me.

I picture her parents waking up and wondering if maybe ZA took Alayna to get breakfast for everyone.
I wonder at what point their optimistic goodwill started to turn.
I wonder if it started turning earlier for one or the other.
I wonder why ZA called his parents to ask permission to visit their property.
I wonder if ZA's parents ever observed any inappropriate behavior.
I wonder what LE will find on ZA's electronic media?

As a mother to a 5yr old girl I just really want to know what hidden signs were there. (Or maybe they weren't hidden and someone does a moral inventory and notifies LE.)

That her parents will have to live knowing a close family friend committed these unspeakable acts against their child - it seems too much to bear.

It's just horrifying.


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[Rocco]

Anyone ready for some positive news? A account was set up for Alayna's family 3 days ago with a goal of $10,000 to help out the family during this terrible time. As of today, there has been over $58,000 donated.

 

[Rocco]

It's just so horrifying to me.

I picture her parents waking up and wondering if maybe ZA took Alayna to get breakfast for everyone.
I wonder at what point their optimistic goodwill started to turn.
I wonder if it started turning earlier for one or the other.
I wonder why ZA called his parents to ask permission to visit their property.
I wonder if ZA's parents ever observed any inappropriate behavior.
I wonder what LE will find on ZA's electronic media?

As a mother to a 5yr old girl I just really want to know what hidden signs were there. (Or maybe they weren't hidden and someone does a moral inventory and notifies LE.)

That her parents will have to live knowing a close family friend committed these unspeakable acts against their child - it seems too much to bear.

It's just horrifying.


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I'll take a guess at why he called his parents to ask permission to visit the property: Because he wanted to make sure no one was there.

 

[AmyPond]

BBM
well said JanetElaine!

I recall this couple, who were at a huge family reunion, weekend at a campground, hundreds of people in attendance...

A friend came to them and told them that a man was watching their 9yr old daughter swim in the lake, she was concerned because he did not appear to be watching all the kids swim. Just their daughter. ( the couple was also there, on the beach, but hadn't noticed this man, as they were intent on their children).

They immediately went to speak to their daughter. They asked the child about, (insert mans name), and were totally shocked to learn, that he had, already had several encounters with the child, right under their watch! :

Mom told her,( at communal tables), she had to wait till after dinner for a brownie, but he had snuck her one, ( now they have a "secret" together, a very common grooming tactic).
He had (briefly) rubbed her neck/shoulders, standing behind her, in the dark, at the (crowded) bonfire, ( establishing familiarity of his touching her intimately).
He massaged her foot, on one occasion, while returning a dropped flip-flop.
There were a a number times he made comments to her about her, "pretty hair, smile ect...

Her parents were stunned! They never saw ANY of this go down!!

As you so aptly said, They are masters at going unnoticed.

One thing I personally have noticed...genuinely kind people, who want to help my child, say, push her swing, or put a marshmallow on a stick for her, will, at the very least, make eye contact with me, in that unspoken, "Do you mind if I help her with this marsh mellow" kind of way. Then they WAIT for me to respond in kind. Predators will often just "help" your child, and watch to see if you object.OR NOT! (Testing boundaries).

Yikes. That is so scary!

And you're right...creeps would definitely test boundaries.

I was at the park recently and a little girl was on the bottom of a slide but too afraid to jump down (she was about 2.) Her dad was tending to the other toddler. I was standing right there so I just asked him, "Can I help her down?" He said yes. So I picked her up and set her on the ground. I would NEVER touch someone else's child without asking (I mean, unless they were in danger or something.)

bbm

Indeed! Indeed, indeed. Very good posts by both of you, IBsleuthin and Safeguard.

This is also why I have a bit of a problem with the 'bathing suit' theory (where kids are taught nobody is allowed to touch their body where a bathing suit would go). I have taught and am still teaching the youngest that nobody is allowed to touch them ANYWHERE without permission. Neck, shoulders, foot... nowhere. No forced hugs either. 'Permission to touch' is a must. And from experience I can say that contrary to what sceptics might argue, kids don't go 'paranoid' or scared of every touch. My kids don't flinch when their buddy throws an arm around their shoulder, like friends do. But they DO know that their body, all of it, is theirs and they are ALWAYS allowed to refuse anyone to touch them, even if it is grandma who wants a hug, or their best friend, or the milk man. See how that goes? NONE of this however should make the parent less aware. Kids should never be responsible for their own safety, no matter how many tools you have handed them.

(I apologize if I sound preachy... I am very passionate about this subject too, and sometimes I wish I could just telepathically transfer all me knowledge and experience with this stuff to other parents, so these monsters will be outsmarted at every turn by parents who would rather make Uncle Jack uncomfortable by allowing their kiddo to leave him hanging for a hug, than to risk the child thinking they always have to obey an adult's wish to hug or touch them).

No forced hugs is a biggie. I actually never thought about it before because you often hear things like "go give grandpa a hug" or whatever. And we do say that to our 2 year old. But my mom, who worked with kids, often says that if a child...ANY child...doesn't want to hug someone, then that's fine. Even if it's grandma and grandpa. Because kids need to know they have control over that sort of thing. I honestly never thought much of it. But it makes sense. If we FORCE him to hug someone if he doesn't want to...even if it's a safe person...what message is that sending, you know?

 

[Safeguard]

(BBM)

Posting this again because I think it is that important!! This last sentence wow, this is just amazing how this sums up predatory behavior! This sentence should be included in every single parenting manual, magazine, pamphlet ect...world wide. THAT is how important that is.

Excellent.

By the way this exact behavior goes right along with tickling, poking, teasing, stroking hair, ect...where they are testing to see if you respond and if you don't? The CHILD views this as acceptable behavior even when this behavior may make the child uncomfortable.

Now, we are getting to the good stuff. This is the stuff that needs to be taught.

Thank you. I also wanted to add, that this couple at the reunion, were terribly conflicted as to what to do, about "creepy guy"...

They were very upset and they really wanted to warn other people. They wanted to report the guy, but who would you report him to, and for what? I recall they left the reunion a little early, and they told a few people why. They got mixed reactions. Some took it seriously but others were :"Oh that's just *creepy guy*, he just like that, doesn't mean any harm"...

They later learned that this guy tried to pressure another mom, to let him take her daughter for ice cream. He was with a small group of kids, he asked if her daughter could go, and she said "No". That should have been the end of it, but he kept working on her, " aww come on, all the kids are going, she'll have fun" ect...( Again, pushing back against her boundaries to see what he could get her to allow.)

Families can make it so make it so easy for people to get away with this. It gets tricky...

I once visited my sister, in Fla. I had my five year old with me. Her 13 yr old Grandson asked if he could take my boy for a walk. ( on a path that ran behind the large trailer park, between the back of the trailers and the woods!). Everyone was so pleased that the teen was being so nice to his little nephew... They looked me like I was Satan, when I refused to allow it. They didn't seem as happy to have us visiting after that.

I have a few relatives I don't have much to do with because I "insulted" them by not allowing my children to sleep over, or for them to babysit, but I was not protected by my parents from preditory relatives, and I will not risk my children.

We must protect our littles. Even of we feel foolish, or are looked at as mean, or are sometimes wrong about someone. The thing is,
once a child has been molested or harmed, you cannot un-ring that bell and they will be gravely at risk of further abuse. Predators can spot their vulnerability like a "Lion Spots a Limp".

 

[Knox]

Anyone talking about this guy on social media? Pretty quiet so far?

 

[human]

I think this discussion of "signs" is good. The exploring of boundaries. Never thought about it. This would be an excellent topic for parenting classes. It would be a good topic for parents of newborns in the hospital.

I was reading about the BTK killer on here . He sounds like he was an excellent father. Boy scout leader. Church leader. Good job. He fooled everyone.

 

[IBsleuthin]

You're very welcome, and I am so very sorry you had to live it. I am glad you found your voice and are raising awareness. You're strong. <3

I actually only talk about it on here. I never bring it up or talk about it in my 'real life'. All these many, many years later it's still safer to stuff it.

 

[IBsleuthin]

Thank you. I also wanted to add, that this couple at the reunion, were terribly conflicted as to what to do, about "creepy guy"...

They were very upset and they really wanted to warn other people. They wanted to report the guy, but who would you report him to, and for what? I recall they left the reunion a little early, and they told a few people why. They got mixed reactions. Some took it seriously but others were :"Oh that's just *creepy guy*, he just like that, doesn't mean any harm"...

They later learned that this guy tried to pressure another mom, to let him take her daughter for ice cream. He was with a small group of kids, he asked if her daughter could go, and she said "No". That should have been the end of it, but he kept working on her, " aww come on, all the kids are going, she'll have fun" ect...( Again, pushing back against her boundaries to see what he could get her to allow.)

Families can make it so make it so easy for people to get away with this. It gets tricky...

I once visited my sister, in Fla. I had my five year old with me. Her 13 yr old Grandson asked if he could take my boy for a walk. ( on a path that ran behind the large trailer park, between the back of the trailers and the woods!). Everyone was so pleased that the teen was being so nice to his little nephew... They looked me like I was Satan, when I refused to allow it. They didn't seem as happy to have us visiting after that.

I have a few relatives I don't have much to do with because I "insulted" them by not allowing my children to sleep over, or for them to babysit, but I was not protected by my parents from preditory relatives, and I will not risk my children.

We must protect our littles. Even of we feel foolish, or are looked at as mean, or are sometimes wrong about someone. The thing is,
once a child has been molested or harmed, you cannot un-ring that bell and they will be gravely at risk of further abuse. Predators can spot their vulnerability like a "Lion Spots a Limp".

SO well written. My thoughts, prayers and best wishes are with you as you carry your memories. I'm sorry for your experiences.

We move on though to be the protectors of our own children, and "Our revenge will be the laughter of our children." ~Bobby Sands

P.S. I always have believed that the predator can also spot the fact that I'm not a mama bear I'm a mama DRAGON.

 

[IBsleuthin]

It's just so horrifying to me.

I picture her parents waking up and wondering if maybe ZA took Alayna to get breakfast for everyone.
I wonder at what point their optimistic goodwill started to turn.
I wonder if it started turning earlier for one or the other.
I wonder why ZA called his parents to ask permission to visit their property.
I wonder if ZA's parents ever observed any inappropriate behavior.
I wonder what LE will find on ZA's electronic media?

As a mother to a 5yr old girl I just really want to know what hidden signs were there. (Or maybe they weren't hidden and someone does a moral inventory and notifies LE.)

That her parents will have to live knowing a close family friend committed these unspeakable acts against their child - it seems too much to bear.

It's just horrifying.


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Please read and print off the conversations that we have just had on here concerning how to PREVENT this from happening. You are the gateway to your child.

 

[Safeguard]

I think this discussion of "signs" is good. The exploring of boundaries. Never thought about it. This would be an excellent topic for parenting classes. It would be a good topic for parents of newborns in the hospital.

I was reading about the BTK killer on here . He sounds like he was an excellent father. Boy scout leader. Church leader. Good job. He fooled everyone.

I'm glad it made you think about it human. It felt kinda like a tj. But this perp seems so...ordinary to me. It made me remember how, sneaky, deceptive and oily these types can be. I feel so sad about this lovely child. I don't believe she left her home alive. Just a hunch, but I think he went into her room to molest her, and she made noise. (which he then stifled).I think that's why he stole her father's truck. He knew he was going to be caught quicker, if he just left her in the home and fled on foot. If she was alive when he left, I feel like she would have been frightened and cried. Again, just a hunch...

 

[MamaJoJo]

I'm glad it made you think about it human. It felt kinda like a tj. But this perp seems so...ordinary to me. It made me remember how, sneaky, deceptive and oily these types can be. I feel so sad about this lovely child. I don't believe she left her home alive. Just a hunch, bit I think he went into her room to molest her, and she made noise. (which he then stifled).I think that's why he stole her father's truck. He knew he was going to be caught quicker, if he just left her in the home and fled on foot. If she was alive when he left, I feel like she would have been frightened and cried. Again, just a hunch...

This is all very sad. I'm just reading Alayna's thread for the first time now so my apologies if what I ask has already been asked and answered (I didn't see any reference to it). Is there a possibility that she had been groomed or molested by ZA before he took her life? He had been in the home multiple times according to reports. I'm curious what his interactions with her had been prior to this horrific incident.

As for him having snuck into her room to molest her then killing her at the house, I would think that the autopsy would show if any of the trauma to her body was pre- or post- mortem. I expect it was pre- and she was taken alive from her parents' house. Turns my stomach.

Rest in peace, sweet Alayna.

 

[ohmygoodness]

BBM
well said JanetElaine!

I recall this couple, who were at a huge family reunion, weekend at a campground, hundreds of people in attendance...

A friend came to them and told them that a man was watching their 9yr old daughter swim in the lake, she was concerned because he did not appear to be watching all the kids swim. Just their daughter. ( the couple was also there, on the beach, but hadn't noticed this man, as they were intent on their children).

They immediately went to speak to their daughter. They asked the child about, (insert mans name), and were totally shocked to learn, that he had, already had several encounters with the child, right under their watch! :

Mom told her,( at communal tables), she had to wait till after dinner for a brownie, but he had snuck her one, ( now they have a "secret" together, a very common grooming tactic).
He had (briefly) rubbed her neck/shoulders, standing behind her, in the dark, at the (crowded) bonfire, ( establishing familiarity of his touching her intimately).
He massaged her foot, on one occasion, while returning a dropped flip-flop.
There were a a number times he made comments to her about her, "pretty hair, smile ect...

Her parents were stunned! They never saw ANY of this go down!!

As you so aptly said, They are masters at going unnoticed.

One thing I personally have noticed...genuinely kind people, who want to help my child, say, push her swing, or put a marshmallow on a stick for her, will, at the very least, make eye contact with me, in that unspoken, "Do you mind if I help her with this marsh mellow" kind of way. Then they WAIT for me to respond in kind. Predators will often just "help" your child, and watch to see if you object.OR NOT! (Testing boundaries).

Excellent post! This is how it is done. Kids don't say anything because they don't know what it means until it goes too far and by then they feel guilty and part of the "secret". Like they have done something wrong. There must be something wrong with them. Very sad.

 

[LisaWL7TR]

I just wanted to add the grooming can be used on older teens that babysit away from home. Short story...the dad left beer and told us to help ourselves, I think now this was a type of groomg. The walk home that his wife insisted that he do for our safety was "very hands on and included a yucky kiss" We never told. He would prob have blamed us for imagining things after getting into his beer. We knew our dad's would kill him and we liked his kids and wife. We decided to babysit together thinking the problem would stop but he had 2 hands. I finally quit and mom assumed I wanted to date on those nights instead of babysitting. I did tell my mom later as an adult with kids of my own.
So, please watch who your children/teens babysit for and if they suddenly stop.
We were 13:and 15 and knew we had to keep it secret. I feel bad that I didn't stop him from continuing his ways with others back then. I would love to confront him today adult to adult!
Sorry for the long post. Hopefully, it will help someone in the near future.

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[Dogface]

I jumped ahead a couple of pages, but saw the talk about what signs to look for, what can we do...questions I ask myself when reading a case like this. I came across this article a while ago and found it truly intriguing. It's about what Germany is doing to try and prevent pedophiles from acting on their urges. I would really like to see something like this in place here in the US(heck everywhere!)...https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/16/how-germany-treats-paedophiles-before-they-offend
Some excerpts:

“At the start of each session, the participants talk about their experiences of the past week and what is on their minds,” said Kuhle. The treatment includes helping participants to understand the child’s perspective, learning to cope in potentially difficult situations such as birthday parties, and developing ways to overcome bad habits such as viewing pornographic images or having sexual fantasies, which can increase the likelihood of a paedophile offending

And

Statistics gathered by the Charité’s therapists indicate that, of 440 paedophile patients they have so far treated, the average age is 37, 71% are employed, 39% are in relationships, while 36% are the caregivers for one or more children. They are almost always male. “We have been contacted by 17 women in the last decade. Only one of these would I say had a paedophilic disorder,” said Kuhle.

And on a side note I think so much of this goes back to a lack of emotional intelligence we are seeing in today's society. Everything is geared towards instant gratification. If this is something that is in the DSM, it's something we need to take action on treating, actively. And offenders need to face the harshest penalties. Our children are the cost of letting these people coexist and try to cope on their own.

 

[human]

I jumped ahead a couple of pages, but saw the talk about what signs to look for, what can we do...questions I ask myself when reading a case like this. I came across this article a while ago and found it truly intriguing. It's about what Germany is doing to try and prevent pedophiles from acting on their urges. I would really like to see something like this in place here in the US(heck everywhere!)...https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/16/how-germany-treats-paedophiles-before-they-offend
Some excerpts:



And



And on a side note I think so much of this goes back to a lack of emotional intelligence we are seeing in today's society. Everything is geared towards instant gratification. If this is something that is in the DSM, it's something we need to take action on treating, actively. And offenders need to face the harshest penalties. Our children are the cost of letting these people coexist and try to cope on their own.

I read it and to tell you the truth, it made me sick. I guess these guys are sincere. Then I wonder if they meet up and conspire for nefarious deeds.

I have such negative feelings about people who have attractions to children

 

[Dogface]

I read it and to tell you the truth, it made me sick. I guess these guys are sincere. Then I wonder if they meet up and conspire for nefarious deeds.

I have such negative feelings about people who have attractions to children

I think most people who do not have an attraction to children feel the same way. But, I think if it could possibly give one person a way to control their urges, it would be worth it. When it comes to finding these people before they offend, I think we have to do something different than what we are doing, which is nothing or hoping they seek treatment on their own.

 

[Damarna]

A little OT - hubby loves kids. He's always been the go-to when anyone's kids were crabby. He had the magic touch. He was born to be a grandpa. Sees a small child at the restaurant and loves to watch their silly antics. But he knows he has to be very very careful because instead of being seen as someone who simply loves children he's worried about being seen as a creep who 'loves' children.

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[Damarna]

Court Records Show Anderson's Dark Side

KARE 11

( Sent from http://www.kare11.com/news/crime/court-records-shows-andersons-dark-side/307490120 )

From the article:
"And he's like, "Just let me in." And he was pushing his face in the door and trying to push the door open. And I'm like, "No, you're not coming in, and you're going home right now. This is ridiculous.' And he's like, 'Just let me in, I'm going to *advertiser censored** you.' And I'm like, 'No, you're not.' And he's like, 'You know you want to *advertiser censored** me.' I just kind of laughed it off a little bit and was like, 'Yeah, I don't think so," the woman said.