MN MN - Jackie Theel, 6, Paynesville, 5 Sept 1944

[AnaTeresa]

I did a people search at work since I've got a search engine that pulls public records. I searched just his last name Theel. Given he was considered "slow", I did fudge his age range a bit and looked for people who were 73-78. I wasn't able to find anyone who could be Jackie, or men who could have gone by a proper name that would be nicknamed Jackie.

Do we know what Jackie's full name was?

I'm not entirely familiar with military uniforms. Would he just have had his first name on the uniform? It could be he was going by a different last name, which is why I'm not able to find any Theel males in his age range that he could be.

Granted - this search engine is not 100% accurate, so there's always a chance he could have kept his name, but I'm thinking it was probably changed if he is living.

 

[marie-chantal]

I did a people search at work since I've got a search engine that pulls public records. I searched just his last name Theel. Given he was considered "slow", I did fudge his age range a bit and looked for people who were 73-78. I wasn't able to find anyone who could be Jackie, or men who could have gone by a proper name that would be nicknamed Jackie.

Do we know what Jackie's full name was?

I'm not entirely familiar with military uniforms. Would he just have had his first name on the uniform? It could be he was going by a different last name, which is why I'm not able to find any Theel males in his age range that he could be.

Granted - this search engine is not 100% accurate, so there's always a chance he could have kept his name, but I'm thinking it was probably changed if he is living.

According to the very first post in this thread, his full name was Victor John Theel. Would you mind typing that name into your search engine? It would be wonderful if he could be found.

 

[AnaTeresa]

According to the very first post in this thread, his full name was Victor John Theel. Would you mind typing that name into your search engine? It would be wonderful if he could be found.

That will teach me to go back and periodically reread threads from the beginning. Unfortunately, I didn't find any results for Victor Theel. I'm wondering if he kept going by Jackie, but his last name was changed. That would make more sense for a little child, if someone did kidnap him to raise him. Statistically, it's a longshot theory, but it would be interesting if it were true.

That said, I'm just using the Lexis search engine which pulls public records for litigation. It's not as powerful as a police search engine, and there are limitations and errors. It's possible he could have kept his name, and he's not turning up in the search because of typographical errors, lack of records at the time, etc. I had hoped I'd find something, but no luck.

 

[marie-chantal]

That will teach me to go back and periodically reread threads from the beginning. Unfortunately, I didn't find any results for Victor Theel. I'm wondering if he kept going by Jackie, but his last name was changed. That would make more sense for a little child, if someone did kidnap him to raise him. Statistically, it's a longshot theory, but it would be interesting if it were true.

That said, I'm just using the Lexis search engine which pulls public records for litigation. It's not as powerful as a police search engine, and there are limitations and errors. It's possible he could have kept his name, and he's not turning up in the search because of typographical errors, lack of records at the time, etc. I had hoped I'd find something, but no luck.

Thanks for looking! Just like you, I kind of doubt that he kept his last name. Would you mind trying Victor Thiel, Jackie Thiel, John Theel, John Thiel or Victor/John/Jack Teal/Teel? There is always the chance that he perhaps knew his last name, but maybe the spelling was changed for whatever reason?

 

[Richard]

There would have been two ways out of Paynesville - one by way of the highway and the other by railroad.

While Jackie might have walked near the highway, he probably had been told to stay away from the road and not cross it. Most kids have specific boundaries which they are to remain within. The main highway would have been one such boundary. Besides, there probably wasn't anything but farm fields on the other side of the road.

The other possible way for Jackie to have left Paynsville would have been by train. This is not unreasonable, since his house was very close to the tracks and the train station. If he made it to the station/tracks, he could easily have been abducted by a migrant and put into a box car. By all accounts, Jackie was alone and on his way home for lunch. This would have put him by himself and headed in the general directtion of the tracks.

I do not know what the train schedule was for that day, but if someone could find one, it could be a good lead, even so many years later.

 

[mikkismom]

State attempts to identify unknown remains

http://www.messagemedia.co/millelacs/news/state/article_b056e796-cd23-11e2-84c1-001a4bcf6878.html

The remains being tested as part of this effort were found in Minnesota from the 1970s to the 1990s.

 

[Veidt]

Richard,
I have found a 1946 timetable for the Soo Line: http://sooline.railfan.net/resources/timetables/46ptt.html . I assume the 1944 would have been somewhat different due to it being war time but this may be close enough. I have also found a few websites that may be of use to you:

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SooLineHistory/info - A discussion group on the history of the Soo Line

http://www.sooline.org/publications/theSOO/index.html - Soo Line historical society

You could join the group or get in touch with that society, or both, and ask if they have any pertinent records or time tables they could share with you. I can do that if you're busy whenever I have some spare time, too.

By the way - I don't know if I 'buy' the theory that a hobo took him on the train. My reasons for this are simple and feel free to correct me. Hobos in those days mostly freight hopped. Freight hopping is a tricky and dangerous practice for those who don't know how to do it. It would have been complicated, I assume, to do so with a child unless he strapped Jackie to his back. I believe Jackie wouldn't have any previous experience freight hopping so even if a hobo gave him directions and pointers on how to do it, it seems unlikely he would have succeeded and especially succeeded every time. If he fell of a train at any point, his clothes would have marked him as definitely not being a hobo or the child of the one unless he was given a change of clothes. I also assume in those days if someone wanted to adopt a child under the table they would have easier ways to do it than buy one from a hobo. A hobo travelling with a child and especially one who clearly looked out of place or whose mannerisms didn't signal him as being a hobo's son would have attracted attention and being a risk.

I think it's possible a hobo or a migrant worker was involved but only in a scenario where they either killed him in the area before leaving, in which case with all the searches I think his body would have been found, or if they have left by means other than the train.

In the train scenario I feel like someone who looked 'legit' and travelled legally such as a soldier would have attracted less attention. I wonder if railroad staff were ever questioned about seeing Jackie on a train?

Does anyone know what happened to Jackie's nephew who used to post here?

It just seems so strange that the teacher would later say she (again, assuming it was a she) saw him.

How did he get to school that morning?

I know it's been a few years but in reply to your posts (snipped by me), I believe the teacher who reported meeting the adopted Jackie Theel from the Navy and the teacher who taught 6-year-old Jackie Theel were not the same person. From what I understand, the Navy story concerns a teacher from the area not necessarily the same teacher.

I don't think it would be so impossible for a teacher to have began working with the name for some reason - especially following a move or if it seemed like a good career change or volunteering opportunity. A teacher from the area would have heard of the case and then connected the dots.

I also think, if Jackie was 'adopted' his name could have remained unchanged. Remember, in those days it was relatively easy to forge records and there were no cross-searched in computer databases. Jackie could have been 'adopted' by someone who then forged his documents if he had any at all and pretended he was a nephew or some such. A name change would probably not have been necessary if the case was only well-known locally and not something that would have raised flags nationwide. They may also have changed only his first name, either became when asked what he was called the boy said Jackie as that was his nickname or because they wanted something that wasn't his real birth name so they asked him for a nickname.

As to going to school, I believe he could have gone with his siblings or been dropped off by one of them or a parent. Perhaps even walked there himself?

Nothing seems to indicate that Jackie had a major mental disability. What being 'slow' means here exactly is up for debate. He could simply have just been quiet and generally a 'head in the clouds' type who would have seemed 'slow' for seeming less clever in practical terms. He could have had some learning impairment such as dyslexia or not have been the cleverest kid though by no means having below-average IQ or a disability that would make him unable to properly function. So in this case I think he could easily have joined the Navy later in life and perhaps he could have been trusted enough to hand over a letter to his teacher but in the excitement and nervousness of the first day just ended up forgetting all about it IMO.

:twocents:, :moo:, etc.

 

[Richard]

Veidt,

Thanks for posting all the information on the Soo Line. Looking at the time tables, it would seem that there were four regular trains passing through Paynseville each day. Trains ran through Paynesville one direction at 10:49 and 11:00 am and the other direction at 4:08 am and 2:17 pm.

So, it is possible that Jackie left Paynesville on a train. Just how that might have occurred is speculation at best, whether on his own, with a paying passenger, or with a hobo/migrant worker "hopping" aboard a freight car.

Of course, there are other possible explanations for Jackie's disappearance, but as you point out, there was a significant amount of interest and searching which took place in the hours after Jackie went missing.

I personally do not believe that Jackie went missing on his own. He was just a little boy on his first day of school. The fact that he was known to have left school to go home for lunch, yet was reportedly seen near the highway some what wide of his intended course makes me think that he simply was not familiar with the route home and it is possible/likely that he ran into strangers who abducted him - either on the highway or a little further north at the rail yard. If, in fact, Jackie reached the highway, he would have known not to cross it and heading north would have taken him to the train tracks. Following the tracks east would have been in the direction of his home.

 

[Veidt]

Veidt,

Thanks for posting all the information on the Soo Line. Looking at the time tables, it would seem that there were four regular trains passing through Paynseville each day. Trains ran through Paynesville one direction at 10:49 and 11:00 am and the other direction at 4:08 am and 2:17 pm.

So, it is possible that Jackie left Paynesville on a train. Just how that might have occurred is speculation at best, whether on his own, with a paying passenger, or with a hobo/migrant worker "hopping" aboard a freight car.

Of course, there are other possible explanations for Jackie's disappearance, but as you point out, there was a significant amount of interest and searching which took place in the hours after Jackie went missing.

I personally do not believe that Jackie went missing on his own. He was just a little boy on his first day of school. The fact that he was known to have left school to go home for lunch, yet was reportedly seen near the highway some what wide of his intended course makes me think that he simply was not familiar with the route home and it is possible/likely that he ran into strangers who abducted him - either on the highway or a little further north at the rail yard. If, in fact, Jackie reached the highway, he would have known not to cross it and heading north would have taken him to the train tracks. Following the tracks east would have been in the direction of his home.

Would trains have been more or less frequent during war time? I think maybe less passenger trains but more trains carrying things such as weapons and food, no?

I still wonder about the mechanics of freight hopping with a 6 year old child. A child that age is bigger and heavier than a toddler/baby which could maybe be carried on someone's back (though that would also be risky). I don't know, though.

A paying passenger seems likely.

That's a very good point, that Jackie wouldn't have crossed the highway. I think that even if he didn't know how dangerous that could be, that a nervous child on his first day of school is trying to do everything "just right" and wouldn't cross where no crossing areas exist. If there were enough cars around or if the highway was very wide, that may also have frightened him into not crossing.

:twocents:

 

[kimmy88]

Bumping for Jackie, what a heartbreaking case.

From what I can gather, I believe that Jackie was the victim of a stranger abduction or was involved in what turned out to be a fatal accident.

Wouldn't it be great if Jackie's nephew Gary managed to finally speak to one of the two 'young boys' who claimed to see Jackie getting into the car on the highway, just to see what he has to say about it all these years later.

The fact the light grey car with the soldier and his brother travelling in was checked out so quickly by LE makes me think that for whatever reason they really did believe the young boys' alleged sighting to be accurate. The FBI and other LE agencies were involved in this case so surely they would have made sure what the boys were telling them was likely to be true before releasing such information to the media and public. JMO.

I must say I agree with all the questions Punk Love is saying need answering, if we could get confirmation on who was entrusted with the letter from Jackie's mother to his teacher on that first day then we would be closer to knowing if she ever received it or not.

Did neither the teacher nor any of Jackie's siblings or parents or LE give any more media interviews (even local ones) in the years following his disappearance? From what I can see there is only the more recent interview recorded from Jackie's two siblings who are still searching for answers in his case, but were there no other interviews given 1 year, 5 years, 10 years+ following his disappearance which may have kept this heartbreaking case more firmly in the mediaspotlight?

I hope for the sake of Jackie and his remaining family that they soon get the answers they are looking for.

 

[shergal]

Just a couple interesting misc. tidbits I've come across lately related to some names we've discussed in Jacob Wetterling's case on here.

1. In the original Jackie Theel story
http://www.paynesvillearea.com/news/headlinesarticles/archives/092204/0922theel.html
a cousin of Jackie's dad, Manford Theel, is mentioned:
""Unfortunately, parents are suspects in these types of cases because sometimes they are responsible. But their father, according to Annabelle and Fay, was not home the day that Jackie disappeared. He was a trucker and had to be called in South St. Paul to come home, they said.
That did not keep him from being a suspect, though. Their father, Harold, was a loner, said Annabelle. "A man of few words," according to his cousin Manford Theel, who still lives in Paynesville."


Manford just died on March 6, 2014 at 91. I've attached a pic of his obit from the Paynesville Press. He would have been 66 years old in 1989 (when Jacob & Jared were abducted). He would have been 21 when Jackie Theel went missing. Manford worked at AMPI (Dairy) in Paynesville until 1988.

I also checked google maps to see where the homes of Jackie, Manford, and his son Allen were - they were fairly close. Jackie Theel originally lived where an abandoned lot is now (you can still see an empty lot there on google):
"Jackie Theel, wearing a blue-and-white sailer's suit, walked from the Theel house - which stood on the corner of Lake Avenue and Railroad Street, a block west of downtown, now an abandoned lot - to school. In 1944, the school was located where the current elementary school stands now."
Manford Theel lived at 308 H Hoffman St, Paynesville, MN 56362. Manford's son Allen (or Alan) lived at 312 W Hoffman St, Paynesville, MN 56362. So they all lived fairly close to where Jackie originally lived. Manford's wife (Arlene) had a brother (Bernie Wirtjes) who worked at Sonstegard Farm in Paynesville. It just seems like a lot of things tie together in these cases.

 

[Richard]

Bumping for Jackie, what a heartbreaking case....
Did neither the teacher nor any of Jackie's siblings or parents or LE give any more media interviews (even local ones) in the years following his disappearance? From what I can see there is only the more recent interview recorded from Jackie's two siblings who are still searching for answers in his case, but were there no other interviews given 1 year, 5 years, 10 years+ following his disappearance which may have kept this heartbreaking case more firmly in the mediaspotlight?

I hope for the sake of Jackie and his remaining family that they soon get the answers they are looking for.

Jackie's story would certainly have been in the Paynsville local paper and it is likely that there were a number of articles written about him over the years. Those old stories are probably in bound file copies of the newspaper, but they also might be on microfilm. A major research library in Minnesota should have an index of all Newspaper holdings in the state, and you might be able to locate microfilm or bound print copies that way.

 

[Richard]

This year will mark 70 years since Jackie went missing. The linked 2004 story:

http://www.paynesvillearea.com/news/...0922theel.html

Covers it pretty well and has a map of the area with comments attatched.

I think that the story of the blood hounds picking up his scent and then heading west (away from his house) could mean a number of things. First, and most likely, the dogs could have picked up Jackie's scent from any day prior to the first day of school and simply traced where he went the day before he went missing.

Secondly, it could mean that Jackie made it that far but for some reason decided to head west instead of home. That would seem most unlikely, however, since by then he would have been nearly home and certainly had his bearings to know where he was. This might point to someone abducting him and walking west with him along the RR tracks.

The sighting of someone picking him up west of his school and near the highway would seem more likely. He would not have traveled as far and could easily have walked in the wrong direction, perhaps following another child for a ways. Remember, he was a 6 year-old little boy and it was only his first day of school. Even in a small town like this, a kid could get turned around in unfamiliar territory.

 

[AnnieOakley]

State attempts to identify unknown remains

http://www.messagemedia.co/millelacs/news/state/article_b056e796-cd23-11e2-84c1-001a4bcf6878.html

Does anyone know if the family has submitted DNA?

 

[Veidt]

You know, I think the reports he was seen near Highway 23 sound credible to me. The Paynesville Area article says there were two sets of such reports, one from a young couple and another from the other boys.

This makes at least four witnesses, in two different groups at different times.

The couple reported seeing him around 1 PM. The boys said they saw him around 4:45.

Both of their descriptions sound somewhat generic (the couple said they saw a boy in a blue suit, the other boys said they saw a small boy enter a car) so they could have been mistaken and just assumed it was Joseph but it could have been another boy. I assume though that the witnesses were looked into and so were their statements, with them probably being called in to describe what the boy looked like. :twocents:

My biggest question is what happened in those 3 and a half hours between sightings.

That would seem most unlikely, however, since by then he would have been nearly home and certainly had his bearings to know where he was.

I don't know how unlikely this is. The Paynesville Area article points this out:

What they do remember clearly is that Jackie was not allowed to go far from home. "They never let him go anywhere," said Annabelle. "I think he pretty much stayed home."

Though the kids always did the errands, their parents never sent Jackie uptown to buy groceries, said Annabelle.

The kids would have to get water, fetch milk from a farm on the outskirts of town, and would go to their aunt's house, added Fay. "I knew that town backwards," said Fay.

But, Jackie did not, they agreed.

So, if Jackie had tried to walk home from school that day, and gotten lost, even if it looked familiar, he probably would not be able to find his way home, said Annabelle.

BBM. I think Jackie could easily have gotten lost, followed someone (such as a friend from school) or taken a wrong turn even two blocks from home. I don't think it means that the kidnapping happened on the spot two blocks away before he headed in the other direction. He could have gotten lost, maybe for a second time, there and the kidnapping happened shortly after.

From the sounds of it, Jackie was not at all familiar with the town and wasn't allowed to go very far from home. I don't know what 'far from home' is in this context since for children who otherwise went all over town, two blocks away could be considered close, but the remark from Jackie's sister that he was not allowed to go anywhere by himself makes me think he never got far from home, maybe one block at most if that... probably just playing on the street directly outside their home with other children and such things.

If he didn't have a good sense of orientation, when he was two blocks away he could have noticed the familiar sights but then thought he had to turn there. I don't know how diverse the landscape would have been but if it was all rows of houses, he may have thought they looked similar and been wrong, maybe they looked similar from another occasion where he'd been out with his mother or something.

:twocents:

 

[Veidt]

Another thought... I don't know if the railroad has anything to do with it now that I've looked at the map. The bloodhounds picked up his scent going west, the railroad is at northeast. The highway is on the west side of town. I think there could be a way to get there from the west part of town but IMO I think it would be more likely if there was car involved, in that case it seems strange someone who had a car would then take the train (and especially freight hop).

It could be possible that the hounds picked up his scent from another day depending on how they were trained but I think that Jackie's sisters probably knew his movements over the previous days better than we do, maybe the reason why they think he headed west on that day is that he didn't go that way on any recent days so they knew that. If Jackie didn't get to leave his home often and the only recent movement we know of is when his mother walked him to school, it seems odd that his scent would be picked up two blocks from his home and then heading west.

Another thing, I can think of a way that someone who kidnapped Jackie after he headed west could have gone to the railroad. They could have told him they were taking him home or to the school. I just think that unless that person or people had been following him and had an excellent sense of orientation, they would have taken a different street here and there along the way, which I think the hounds would have picked up on so I wonder if they did and people just assumed it was because of Joseph wandering around when lost.

The most likely seems to be to indeed be the highway. Fewer people around, people passing by who could see a boy but not pay much attention to him, fewer witnesses because most people driving by would not be from the area.

 

[rtheel]

Just a couple interesting misc. tidbits I've come across lately related to some names we've discussed in Jacob Wetterling's case on here.

1. In the original Jackie Theel story
http://www.paynesvillearea.com/news/headlinesarticles/archives/092204/0922theel.html
a cousin of Jackie's dad, Manford Theel, is mentioned:
""Unfortunately, parents are suspects in these types of cases because sometimes they are responsible. But their father, according to Annabelle and Fay, was not home the day that Jackie disappeared. He was a trucker and had to be called in South St. Paul to come home, they said.
That did not keep him from being a suspect, though. Their father, Harold, was a loner, said Annabelle. "A man of few words," according to his cousin Manford Theel, who still lives in Paynesville."


Manford just died on March 6, 2014 at 91. I've attached a pic of his obit from the Paynesville Press. He would have been 66 years old in 1989 (when Jacob & Jared were abducted). He would have been 21 when Jackie Theel went missing. Manford worked at AMPI (Dairy) in Paynesville until 1988.

I also checked google maps to see where the homes of Jackie, Manford, and his son Allen were - they were fairly close. Jackie Theel originally lived where an abandoned lot is now (you can still see an empty lot there on google):
"Jackie Theel, wearing a blue-and-white sailer's suit, walked from the Theel house - which stood on the corner of Lake Avenue and Railroad Street, a block west of downtown, now an abandoned lot - to school. In 1944, the school was located where the current elementary school stands now."
Manford Theel lived at 308 H Hoffman St, Paynesville, MN 56362. Manford's son Allen (or Alan) lived at 312 W Hoffman St, Paynesville, MN 56362. So they all lived fairly close to where Jackie originally lived. Manford's wife (Arlene) had a brother (Bernie Wirtjes) who worked at Sonstegard Farm in Paynesville. It just seems like a lot of things tie together in these cases.

Manford was my grandfather and yea recently just passed away wanted to say that in 1944 both him and his son allen lived five.miles north of paynesville on the family farm not at 308 west hoffman. He didnt move there until probably the 70's and at that time my grandma arlene theel abd him sold the family farm to allen and moved to 308 west hoffman. Allen stayed on the farm until the early 90's before he moved to 312 west hoffman so in 1944 wheb jackie disappeared there was no theels living in town besides his own family. I do know that grandpa talked about Jackie alot and i know it never set well with him that he was never found. It ks a sad lose for the family and im sure tougher every time they have to relive it. Every lead and report has.been extensivley followed and checked and where ever he is after 70 years he is probably not gonna turn up. I just hope if he is alive that he has had a happy and loving life.

 

[rtheel]

Manford.also didnt start working for the creamery until he moved to town well after jackie disappeared

 

[rtheel]

All the addresses obtained are from the last ten years or so not.from 1944

 

[Richard]

You know, I think the reports he was seen near Highway 23 sound credible to me....

.... I think Jackie could easily have gotten lost, followed someone (such as a friend from school) or taken a wrong turn even two blocks from home. I don't think it means that the kidnapping happened on the spot two blocks away before he headed in the other direction. He could have gotten lost, maybe for a second time, there and the kidnapping happened shortly after.

From the sounds of it, Jackie was not at all familiar with the town and wasn't allowed to go very far from home. ...

... If he didn't have a good sense of orientation, when he was two blocks away he could have noticed the familiar sights but then thought he had to turn there. I don't know how diverse the landscape would have been but if it was all rows of houses, he may have thought they looked similar and been wrong, maybe they looked similar from another occasion where he'd been out with his mother or something.

I agree with your analysis to the point that Jackie, at only six years old, might easily have gotten disoriented and lost in his home town. It might not have been so much that he didn't recognize the landscape, but rather that small things like fences, buildings, barns, or small signs did not look familiar to him.

I remember being walked to school when I was five years old, and I was not yet ready to make the trek myself until I had made the trip quite a number of times. Until then, I had only been allowed to travel within a block or so of home.

I do not think that anyone picked Jackie up with the intention of returning him home, or someone would have recalled seeing them with Jackie or would have remembered a stranger or town person asking questions.

The most likely scenario would seem to be that he was picked up by a passing motorist.

Secondly is the possibility that he might have been abducted by some hobo or migrant who was camped near the train tracks. Again, if someone had bought a ticket and boarded a train with Jackie as a legitimate passenger, someone would have remembered.

If Jackie had gotten as far north as the train tracks, he must have known by then where his house was, since it was so close to the train station. I am certain that he would not have been allowed to cross the tracks as a little boy. Even if he was still disoriented when arriving at the train tracks, he probably would have asked someone nearby for help.