MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #12
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Shay
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Yeah, I have a little bit of mixed feelings about it; in fact, I was just thinking about editing and adding that, I do blame Kevin, I blame him for not coming forward in 1989 and still blame him for not coming forward now. Given that thought, it is true that he would likely face more than just minor ill-feelings from a certain amount of the public. So, it may be that he'd be facing more than a little inconvenience. At the same time; I still almost think that he should, like I say, it's a national story, and for a good reason. And, it's been a big story, for a long time in that area. I really think that the more information that the public has, even if it doesn't seem that significant to someone else, may well be the sliver of light that is needed to know where to look. I'd just ask him to, 'take the hit' acknowledge that he should have brought the information forward earlier, apologize and state that he is now trying to help in any way that he can. However, the other big factor here is that we can 'assume' that LE has questioned him, at least somewhat sufficiently, but, it's LE that is not sharing any information with the public, which I know is something that frustrates a lot of people; and, adding to that; it's not impossible that LE has not asked all the pertinent questions. I just want all the information there is, available and verified accurate. Thanks for the reply, (w/o arguing)
BBM
Me too
It was in news links all over in 2004 and none of the links work anymore.
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Trino
Well-Known Member
Assuming Kevin is still local, or even assuming he WAS local, there certainly are people who know him. What's with the secrets?
Population 1990: 3,294 (census)
Population 2010: 6,534 (census)
Not permitted to post a name, so I won't, but do an online search for a 46 yr old Kevin who lives in St. Joseph, MN. Maybe the person I found isn't him. Interesting, however.
Population 1990: 3,294 (census)
Population 2010: 6,534 (census)
Not permitted to post a name, so I won't, but do an online search for a 46 yr old Kevin who lives in St. Joseph, MN. Maybe the person I found isn't him. Interesting, however.
Dave K
New Member
On that one question; I'm relatively certain that it's Kevin's term! One thing that Joy spelled out on her blog concerning her interviews with both Dan and Kevin, because people had asked - "why are they talking to you (her)" is that, she feels that they each wanted to be able to tell the public at least as much as they thought they could, and wanted it unfiltered. She states that she just wanted to be able to give them each a format and present 'their stories' just as they told them. The term itself has been the subject of a lot of 'wondering' - I think that the idiosyncrasy of using it, belongs to the person who said it; unless of course, "Kevin" is making things up; which I don't really suspect; but, I also really don't know... As I understand, it's also a reason that leads to speculation to Matt F as the "medical cop" because he appears to be a wannabe cop who has actually been an EMT. That makes some sense. Also, I can't see Kevin, if he's making up anything; can't see him making up "medical cop" just because; who would make that up. Unless he's just really cynical and thinks the world's a bunch of idiots. lol...
Dave K
New Member
This is a really long post concerning the circumstances surrounding Kevin. I'm leery to post this, because it's really long and somewhat convoluted. I hope it doesn't cause any confusion or argument. It's just trying to better understand the circumstances that, to me, raise questions.
I don't know whether anyone else will get anything out of it; and I don't blame anyone for not bothering to read it, because it's so long; especially if you don't normally agree with or appreciate what I have to say; in that case, or those cases, I'd recommend, and maybe even ask that you don't bother to read it.
It's really pretty hard to spell out some of the things that I'm curious about here; so, I've just tried to do so as well as I can.
I've been wondering several things about Kevin's story for a while. I don't think at all that Kevin had anything whatsoever to do with the abduction or anything like that. I'm not trying to point the finger at Kevin or make him the subject of any controversy, just, saying that the following aspects of the story are hard to make sense of.
But, for whatever reason, his story, seems to me to be really hard to put together and for that reason it seems like it leaves us with some "Unknowns" - that just seems to bother me as to why that would be. I wonder if clearing any of that up, if possible, could possibly bring something to light that has not surfaced before.
It's hard to say. But, here-go's.
What I'm referring to here is from Kevin's Story as found on Joy's Blog; which as far as I know, is the main reference we have to Kevin's story. Just the other day someone posted a link that included a relatively brief interview with Kevin. Other than that, I don't know of much else.
To start, it's hard for me to express just how absolutely unbelievable I think it is that both Kevin And his girlfriend's Brother, never bothered to inform LE about his driving through the crime scene. Her brother who was working at the Fire Station that night, because everyone else was out searching for Jacob, and they spoke, that night, about the FBI making casts of the tire tracks in DR's driveway, and neither of them came forward.
To me, that's incomprehensible; I know that others don't necessarily feel that way, but, I just can't get around it. Especially considering the fact that his girlfriend's brother worked at the fire station, made the call, etc..., I just can't see how that happens and with all the attention on the case, no one decides to come forward.
One other thing to consider on this; under the circumstances, the other's who knew or probably knew the story as well, which would include the others who were together that night, when this went down - Kevin's Girlfriend, Her Brother, His Wife, and, more likely than not, his girlfriend's Mother, who was also the mother of the brother, who worked the fire station that night. Also, she is the woman who kept a police scanner on in the background. So, you'd think that she has somewhat of a LE, civic-minded mentality.
Kevin was with his girlfriend at her mother's along with her (GF's) brother and his wife. They were playing cards till 9:45 or 10:00, when they heard the information on the scanner, then saw the cop cars going by with lights on. He and his GF's brother followed the lights, in different vehicles and taking different routes. Kevin's route took him to the crime scene, where he used Dan R's driveway to turn around. (Seems an odd choice in itself rather than just pull in, back-up and turn around).
This is approximately a 1/4 mile driveway, not that wide, very dark, with a sharp curve; just to say that it would take a minute to drive the whole driveway, turn around, under the light, then go back down the 1/4 mile driveway; spot the bikes across the street in the ditch and sit for a minute and discuss with his GF whether or not to put them in the trunk, or just leave them. (Also, looking at crime scene photos, it seems the bikes were somewhat in a ditch; just makes me wonder, how visible were they from Kevin's viewpoint, coming out of DR's driveway; I just find that curious).
It just seems odd to me, that Kevin and his girlfriend were at her mother's, and even if they were just getting ready to leave, that by the time, they heard the information on the scanner, when they decided to go take a look, (it was late Oct, evening, in MN, did they already have their jackets on (?)), got in their car, went to the crime scene (coincidentally), then, drove all the way up DR's driveway, turned around, spotted and discussed the bikes, all before LE ever made it to the crime scene. I suppose it's not impossible, it just really seems like and incredible coincidence to have been able to do that.
One thing that I think we don't know, is "Exactly" When LE got to the actual crime scene. As far as I know, from the 9:32 phone call, LE went straight to the Wetterling's, and I believe it's said that they arrived at 9:40, 8 mins after the call; so, if this is correct, then, how soon after that did they find out where the crime scene was and how soon did they get there? Or, did LE know where the crime scene was from the phone call and did anyone from LE go there right away? Which would make Kevin's story even more unlikely. Or, were state police already on their way, from the original call at 9:32, and when the locals got to the Wetterlings, were they able to relay crime scene location to them en-route? A possibility.
So, back to Kevin, where he turns around in DR's driveway, then heads up to Tom Thumbs; he speaks to the "Medical Cop" and it doesn't sound like there was a lot of time spent in Tom Thumbs; also according to the story, when he went into T Thumbs, his GF stayed in the car; so, then he goes out and he and his GF see the 'new cop' and talk to him, tell him about the bikes, and the cops says "We already know all about that" - so, again, coincidentally, from the time that Kevin leaves DR's driveway, then goes to T Thumbs, just over a half mile, I believe, then over to the 'new cop' this new cop, already knows about the bikes. Had he just heard it over the radio? I mean if Kevin had just come from there, and there were no cops there; but, shortly afterward, he speaks to the cop who tells him, they know all about it! Seems like another incredible coincidence that this all happened in such a time frame.
Why was this new cop there, near Tom Thumbs, if all the action had been sent over to the Wetterling's? According to the story, the cop was at the time, sitting there in his vehicle, with no lights and engine not running. Just seems odd under the circumstances.
And then, there's speculation as to whether this new cop is the one who escorted the Wetterling's back to their house; if that's the case, then he did that, then got pretty quickly up to Tom Thumbs.
It's really hard to see how to put all that in a good, realistic time line.
I'm really not certain what to make of all of that, but, it does seem like it presents some "Unknowns" that might be nice to know.
I'd be really interested in knowing LE's official timeline as to just when they arrived at the crime scene; and, was it secured then and kept secured?
I'm just saying that, with all that we Don't Know about this story, it'd be good to clear up any questionable scenarios that we can. There may be some sliver of light, somewhere that hasn't been looked at before.
Personally, I really don't think that Kevin is or should be a suspect in the abduction. And, I really don't know what having a better understanding of 'His Story' would necessarily clear up; but, it does seem that, the story, contemporaneous with the abduction, involving LE, etc..., leaves questions that it just might help to understand better.
I personally don't have any suspect, and don't see enough to have a serious suspect. For that reason, no one is ruled out, and my thinking is just to gather as much possible information concerning the events and see whether something comes together from that.
I don't know whether anyone else will get anything out of it; and I don't blame anyone for not bothering to read it, because it's so long; especially if you don't normally agree with or appreciate what I have to say; in that case, or those cases, I'd recommend, and maybe even ask that you don't bother to read it.
It's really pretty hard to spell out some of the things that I'm curious about here; so, I've just tried to do so as well as I can.
I've been wondering several things about Kevin's story for a while. I don't think at all that Kevin had anything whatsoever to do with the abduction or anything like that. I'm not trying to point the finger at Kevin or make him the subject of any controversy, just, saying that the following aspects of the story are hard to make sense of.
But, for whatever reason, his story, seems to me to be really hard to put together and for that reason it seems like it leaves us with some "Unknowns" - that just seems to bother me as to why that would be. I wonder if clearing any of that up, if possible, could possibly bring something to light that has not surfaced before.
It's hard to say. But, here-go's.
What I'm referring to here is from Kevin's Story as found on Joy's Blog; which as far as I know, is the main reference we have to Kevin's story. Just the other day someone posted a link that included a relatively brief interview with Kevin. Other than that, I don't know of much else.
To start, it's hard for me to express just how absolutely unbelievable I think it is that both Kevin And his girlfriend's Brother, never bothered to inform LE about his driving through the crime scene. Her brother who was working at the Fire Station that night, because everyone else was out searching for Jacob, and they spoke, that night, about the FBI making casts of the tire tracks in DR's driveway, and neither of them came forward.
To me, that's incomprehensible; I know that others don't necessarily feel that way, but, I just can't get around it. Especially considering the fact that his girlfriend's brother worked at the fire station, made the call, etc..., I just can't see how that happens and with all the attention on the case, no one decides to come forward.
One other thing to consider on this; under the circumstances, the other's who knew or probably knew the story as well, which would include the others who were together that night, when this went down - Kevin's Girlfriend, Her Brother, His Wife, and, more likely than not, his girlfriend's Mother, who was also the mother of the brother, who worked the fire station that night. Also, she is the woman who kept a police scanner on in the background. So, you'd think that she has somewhat of a LE, civic-minded mentality.
Kevin was with his girlfriend at her mother's along with her (GF's) brother and his wife. They were playing cards till 9:45 or 10:00, when they heard the information on the scanner, then saw the cop cars going by with lights on. He and his GF's brother followed the lights, in different vehicles and taking different routes. Kevin's route took him to the crime scene, where he used Dan R's driveway to turn around. (Seems an odd choice in itself rather than just pull in, back-up and turn around).
This is approximately a 1/4 mile driveway, not that wide, very dark, with a sharp curve; just to say that it would take a minute to drive the whole driveway, turn around, under the light, then go back down the 1/4 mile driveway; spot the bikes across the street in the ditch and sit for a minute and discuss with his GF whether or not to put them in the trunk, or just leave them. (Also, looking at crime scene photos, it seems the bikes were somewhat in a ditch; just makes me wonder, how visible were they from Kevin's viewpoint, coming out of DR's driveway; I just find that curious).
It just seems odd to me, that Kevin and his girlfriend were at her mother's, and even if they were just getting ready to leave, that by the time, they heard the information on the scanner, when they decided to go take a look, (it was late Oct, evening, in MN, did they already have their jackets on (?)), got in their car, went to the crime scene (coincidentally), then, drove all the way up DR's driveway, turned around, spotted and discussed the bikes, all before LE ever made it to the crime scene. I suppose it's not impossible, it just really seems like and incredible coincidence to have been able to do that.
One thing that I think we don't know, is "Exactly" When LE got to the actual crime scene. As far as I know, from the 9:32 phone call, LE went straight to the Wetterling's, and I believe it's said that they arrived at 9:40, 8 mins after the call; so, if this is correct, then, how soon after that did they find out where the crime scene was and how soon did they get there? Or, did LE know where the crime scene was from the phone call and did anyone from LE go there right away? Which would make Kevin's story even more unlikely. Or, were state police already on their way, from the original call at 9:32, and when the locals got to the Wetterlings, were they able to relay crime scene location to them en-route? A possibility.
So, back to Kevin, where he turns around in DR's driveway, then heads up to Tom Thumbs; he speaks to the "Medical Cop" and it doesn't sound like there was a lot of time spent in Tom Thumbs; also according to the story, when he went into T Thumbs, his GF stayed in the car; so, then he goes out and he and his GF see the 'new cop' and talk to him, tell him about the bikes, and the cops says "We already know all about that" - so, again, coincidentally, from the time that Kevin leaves DR's driveway, then goes to T Thumbs, just over a half mile, I believe, then over to the 'new cop' this new cop, already knows about the bikes. Had he just heard it over the radio? I mean if Kevin had just come from there, and there were no cops there; but, shortly afterward, he speaks to the cop who tells him, they know all about it! Seems like another incredible coincidence that this all happened in such a time frame.
Why was this new cop there, near Tom Thumbs, if all the action had been sent over to the Wetterling's? According to the story, the cop was at the time, sitting there in his vehicle, with no lights and engine not running. Just seems odd under the circumstances.
And then, there's speculation as to whether this new cop is the one who escorted the Wetterling's back to their house; if that's the case, then he did that, then got pretty quickly up to Tom Thumbs.
It's really hard to see how to put all that in a good, realistic time line.
I'm really not certain what to make of all of that, but, it does seem like it presents some "Unknowns" that might be nice to know.
I'd be really interested in knowing LE's official timeline as to just when they arrived at the crime scene; and, was it secured then and kept secured?
I'm just saying that, with all that we Don't Know about this story, it'd be good to clear up any questionable scenarios that we can. There may be some sliver of light, somewhere that hasn't been looked at before.
Personally, I really don't think that Kevin is or should be a suspect in the abduction. And, I really don't know what having a better understanding of 'His Story' would necessarily clear up; but, it does seem that, the story, contemporaneous with the abduction, involving LE, etc..., leaves questions that it just might help to understand better.
I personally don't have any suspect, and don't see enough to have a serious suspect. For that reason, no one is ruled out, and my thinking is just to gather as much possible information concerning the events and see whether something comes together from that.
j123
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I had some theories about the "medical cop" which I posted much earlier in the thread:
It's definitely very strange, and I can't help but focus on it.
Personally, I want to know if there is a connection between the man Jennifer saw and the "medical cop." I wonder if they're not one and the same, or at least if Kevin has seen the sketch(es).
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Joseph-22-Oct-1989-12&p=11095676#post11095676
It's definitely very strange, and I can't help but focus on it.
Personally, I want to know if there is a connection between the man Jennifer saw and the "medical cop." I wonder if they're not one and the same, or at least if Kevin has seen the sketch(es).
Dave K
New Member
Could be; because, any way you look at it the "medical cop" is a weird issue, hard to understand.
Maybe his response was "I'm a Medic, not a Cop" - somewhat frequently to me, depending on the way people speak, certain phrases are kind of like slurs.
Such as: if he slurred 'not a' sounds like - "I'm a Medic(slur) Cop" sounds like "medical cop" just a thought.
momthebomb
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Dave K,
Again, I agree with much that you say. I also think that the fact that Kevin is almost, although he is not, the closet thing to a witness for the night, we want to know every speck of his story. We want every minute accounted for. I'm just wondering if the "new cop" was the one who escorted the Wetterlings home that night, perhaps it was then that he learned the bikes were left in a ditch and thus the statement "yes, we know about the bikes". Not actually seeing them, but hearing about them from the boys when he escorted the Wetterlings home. This may help answer just one of the many unanswered points you raise. Keep plugging Dave!
Again, I agree with much that you say. I also think that the fact that Kevin is almost, although he is not, the closet thing to a witness for the night, we want to know every speck of his story. We want every minute accounted for. I'm just wondering if the "new cop" was the one who escorted the Wetterlings home that night, perhaps it was then that he learned the bikes were left in a ditch and thus the statement "yes, we know about the bikes". Not actually seeing them, but hearing about them from the boys when he escorted the Wetterlings home. This may help answer just one of the many unanswered points you raise. Keep plugging Dave!
Dave K
New Member
Thank you, so much. I feel that it was fairly well thought out, and basically taken straight from the only source concerning Kevin that we really have. It's something that I've thought about for quite a while, and, as I tried to express in my post; it's hard to say, just what we may gain by clearing certain things up; but, we want to clear up any information we can; because, we don't know where the missing link is! I thank you again....
From the Immelman Turn transcript from FOX 9:
How did the car come into play? Remember the witness turned possible suspect? It was his account that placed a car at the scene that night. He said it turned around and sped away about the time Jacob disappeared.
The FOX 9 Investigators also have learned there was a car nearby that night. We found the driver. He is not a suspect.
Kevin: “It’s sad. It chokes me up. But what can I do. What could I have done.”
He’s a man in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Kevin: “I never came forward. I figured I didn’t have to.”
Kevin was 21 at the time. He heard something on the scanner. Saw a police car speed by his house. Curious, he tried to follow the squad. He was there so fast there was no police crime scene tape around the bikes and scooter yet. He drove away and told a police officer what he’d seen.
Kevin: “He said, yeh we know all about that. I know about the bikes. And that was it. It was like I was bothering him. We backed out and left and that was it.”
Trish Van Pilsum: “He didn’t take your name or phone number.”
Kevin: “He didn’t take my name.”
Trish Van Pilsum: “He didn’t ask, did you see a man lurking around?”
Kevin: “Didn’t ask me a thing.”
Nor, it appears, did the officer pass along his conversation with Kevin to investigators. It strikes the new investigators now working on the case 14 years later as strange. It also strikes them as a huge problem. In fact, investigators didn’t know about Kevin at all until this October [2003]. This came about because he met a federal marshal at a party who urged Kevin to talk to the lead investigator of the Wetterling investigation.
Kevin: “He was really shocked. ‘Cause after I told him who I talked to, what I seen, he couldn’t believe he didn’t know about me. In reality, I could have been the kidnapper and they never would have found me.”
In fact, of the thousands and thousands of pages of leads, none places Kevin at the scene around the time of the kidnapping. A source close to the case said they wasted 14 years looking for him.
Trish Van Pilsum: “Kevin, do you think, ‘Boy if my information didn’t get passed along, what else was missed?’”
Kevin: “Yes. Who else knows something about the case they might not think was crucial.”
Kevin even heard the police were trying to track down the car using tire tracks.
Kevin: “I was scared. I got really scared.”
Kevin expected police to come to him. They never did.
Trish Van Pilsum: “So if they couldn’t find you, what were the odds that they could find the kidnapper.”
Kevin: “Exactly. I think about that all the time. It’s sad. A young kid like that you know, 14 years.”
Why didn’t he go to the police? He figured he’d gotten to the scene after everything was over. He doubted he had anything to add. And he didn’t want to get caught up in the widening net of the Wetterling search.
Kevin: “I knew they were looking for someone and I didn’t want to be put in the position of being a suspect.”
Now investigators believe the car is accounted for. The investigation narrows to a small area surrounding the abduction scene. And, specifically on one man. One of Jacob Wetterling’s neighbors.
How did the car come into play? Remember the witness turned possible suspect? It was his account that placed a car at the scene that night. He said it turned around and sped away about the time Jacob disappeared.
The FOX 9 Investigators also have learned there was a car nearby that night. We found the driver. He is not a suspect.
Kevin: “It’s sad. It chokes me up. But what can I do. What could I have done.”
He’s a man in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Kevin: “I never came forward. I figured I didn’t have to.”
Kevin was 21 at the time. He heard something on the scanner. Saw a police car speed by his house. Curious, he tried to follow the squad. He was there so fast there was no police crime scene tape around the bikes and scooter yet. He drove away and told a police officer what he’d seen.
Kevin: “He said, yeh we know all about that. I know about the bikes. And that was it. It was like I was bothering him. We backed out and left and that was it.”
Trish Van Pilsum: “He didn’t take your name or phone number.”
Kevin: “He didn’t take my name.”
Trish Van Pilsum: “He didn’t ask, did you see a man lurking around?”
Kevin: “Didn’t ask me a thing.”
Nor, it appears, did the officer pass along his conversation with Kevin to investigators. It strikes the new investigators now working on the case 14 years later as strange. It also strikes them as a huge problem. In fact, investigators didn’t know about Kevin at all until this October [2003]. This came about because he met a federal marshal at a party who urged Kevin to talk to the lead investigator of the Wetterling investigation.
Kevin: “He was really shocked. ‘Cause after I told him who I talked to, what I seen, he couldn’t believe he didn’t know about me. In reality, I could have been the kidnapper and they never would have found me.”
In fact, of the thousands and thousands of pages of leads, none places Kevin at the scene around the time of the kidnapping. A source close to the case said they wasted 14 years looking for him.
Trish Van Pilsum: “Kevin, do you think, ‘Boy if my information didn’t get passed along, what else was missed?’”
Kevin: “Yes. Who else knows something about the case they might not think was crucial.”
Kevin even heard the police were trying to track down the car using tire tracks.
Kevin: “I was scared. I got really scared.”
Kevin expected police to come to him. They never did.
Trish Van Pilsum: “So if they couldn’t find you, what were the odds that they could find the kidnapper.”
Kevin: “Exactly. I think about that all the time. It’s sad. A young kid like that you know, 14 years.”
Why didn’t he go to the police? He figured he’d gotten to the scene after everything was over. He doubted he had anything to add. And he didn’t want to get caught up in the widening net of the Wetterling search.
Kevin: “I knew they were looking for someone and I didn’t want to be put in the position of being a suspect.”
Now investigators believe the car is accounted for. The investigation narrows to a small area surrounding the abduction scene. And, specifically on one man. One of Jacob Wetterling’s neighbors.
Ok all you have to do is google jacob wetterling abduction 2003 tire tracks and you can find all kinds of news interviews and information about Kevin coming forward since no one cares to look at any links I provide? Good Lord, do some searching, Joy is not the only source pertaining to Kevin!
Sasquatch321
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They wasted 14 years looking for him. That is a powerful statement from the inside. How clear is it to them as we wait and beg to see.
http://www.minnesotamonthly.com/media/Minnesota-Monthly/October-2009/Without-a-Trace/?cparticle=3
Good story with interview with Sanner and Al Garber.
Good story with interview with Sanner and Al Garber.
momthebomb
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And let's be honest here...after 14-15 years, what did Kevin forget?. I do not believe Kevin had anything at all to do with the abduction, and I believe he was where he said he was. But, I also do not get how his gf's brother, being in the field civil service, first responder, etc, did not encourage Kevin to come forward or come forward himself. He could have, along with his sister, wife and mother all vouch for Kevin. Makes no sense. Out of all 5 of them, not one had the common sense how important even the slightest detail can be? What about the mom? Again, just makes no sense.
http://www.minnesotamonthly.com/media/Minnesota-Monthly/October-2009/Without-a-Trace/?cparticle=3
Good story with interview with Sanner and Al Garber.
Good story with interview with Sanner and Al Garber.
momthebomb
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Your suggestions and the links you provide are appreciated, I'm sure. Relax though. No reason to reprimand anyone. Sometimes sharing your thoughts and concerns, and having others input, is just as valuable as any google search.
Dave K
New Member
That's right; it makes no sense; I can think of no way to justify that. Also, just the fact that it really seems that it is really hard to fit the whole story into a realistic timeline, which was what I was trying to illustrate, that there is/are something(s) to the story that hasn't been accurately reported and accounted for. We all know that the local LE doesn't seem to want to share information; and obviously, something's being missed. If you watched "The Hunt" on CNN, even Patty W. states that it's frustrating to her that she feels that the LE seem to think they're protecting her by not sharing certain information with her.
Here's a quote from the show, Patty: "I think at some point, the Sheriff's Department feels like we don't need to know all and that they might protect us, by not telling us stuff, and that's a little frustrating for me." Makes sense to me.
Dave K
New Member
The Transcript printed above in post #753 was referenced the other day by cGorg in post #685, I mentioned that in my post. I've read a great deal of what's available, however, what is available doesn't address some of what I'm concerned about.
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