MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #14

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
pwesterner said:
So here's my take on all of it. Part of me thinks there could be a connection between Jacob's abduction and the Paynesville cases, but mostly I believe they are two completely separate cases. Yes, there are certain similarities that are a bit striking. For instance, the victims were roughly in the same age group (although if I remember correctly a couple victims were about 5 years older), some were riding bikes, the perp was wearing a mask and said something along the same lines of "don't look back or I'll shoot."

I know Jacob's abductor asked him, his brother and friend their ages (or who was oldest?) and to me this is a very alarming and important detail. This leads me to believe he was very picky and had an important reason for asking this question. In only one of the Paynesville cases the perp inquired how old his victim was (by asking their grade not age).

It also puzzles me why he would choose a random town almost 30 miles away and choose to abduct his victim when there are two other witnesses. I'm guessing he would not be very familiar with St. Joe's unless he worked or moved there. Abducting a child in a potentially unfamiliar area with multiple witnesses is just a little too bold. Sure, kidnappers and sex offenders get a little more cocky and bold with time after getting away with it for awhile, but this just strikes me as TOO bold and out of character.

Bottom line, I believe Jacob's perp was an extremely methodical person and had a specific type of victim in mind. Maybe Jacob's abduction was planned, maybe it wasn't, but I tend to see it as a crime of opportunity. It was dark out and he saw the parents leave and saw the kids go to the store by themselves and thought it was perfect timing. He just strikes me as more bold and a little less impulsive than the Paynesville perp. Perhaps more intelligent and/or experienced also. Again, very methodical. This is just my take on it so far.
Click to expand...
Is the mask verified in Paynesville or is this people emailing Joy?
 
We can never know what was really going on during an unsolved crime but I suspect that most snatch and grab pedophile abductions were much better planned than law enforcement or any of us give them credit. The Paynesville cases are an example. If some pervert, overcome by lust, were to impulsively grab and molest the first kid to come along, he would get caught very quickly. Luck just carries you so far. I'm willing to bet he spent many nights observing what kids (and adults) were out and about after dark, who they were, who they were with, what routes they took and what discrete spots there were along these routes to commit rape. (He probably had an escape plan figured out and explanation for his being there all planned out).

It is perfectly reasonable for someone with no ties to a town to scout out lonely stretches of roadway when kids might walk, where a vehicle could be concealed nearby, and the route out of town that would draw the least attention. If some child of the preferred age, sex and "look" we're to routinely follow a set pattern, it could very likely be noticed.
 
kemo said:
We can never know what was really going on during an unsolved crime but I suspect that most snatch and grab pedophile abductions were much better planned than law enforcement or any of us give them credit. The Paynesville cases are an example. If some pervert, overcome by lust, were to impulsively grab and molest the first kid to come along, he would get caught very quickly. Luck just carries you so far. I'm willing to bet he spent many nights observing what kids (and adults) were out and about after dark, who they were, who they were with, what routes they took and what discrete spots there were along these routes to commit rape. (He probably had an escape plan figured out and explanation for his being there all planned out).

It is perfectly reasonable for someone with no ties to a town to scout out lonely stretches of roadway when kids might walk, where a vehicle could be concealed nearby, and the route out of town that would draw the least attention. If some child of the preferred age, sex and "look" we're to routinely follow a set pattern, it could very likely be noticed.
Click to expand...
Rape meaning all sexual contact or sodomy? What's the Paynesville pattern? I am not downplaying any crime against children, just looking for pattern.
 
I know from readng research, but no links, that perverts have like a Phd in pervert.

They do study what to do. It is so important to them.
 
chaplain1 said:
Rape meaning all sexual contact or sodomy? What the Paynesville pattern? I am not downplaying any crime against children, just looking for pattern.
Click to expand...

Yes, I would like more details. Very confusing info out there.
 
I'll respond with a line of thinking that keeps pushing me towards the perps being the same for Jacob and Jared and very possibly Paynesville. My apologies in advance as I know many of you here are veterans with the Wetterling case and have seen this info numerous times.

I just looked at a map again, and saw that the perp in Jared's case suddenly became angry when he realized he was late for an appointment at the Red Carpet Club. The RCC is about a half hour drive from Richmond, MN. Richmond to St. Joe's is about a twenty minute ride. The Red Carpet Club to St. Joe's is about a twenty minute ride. The perpetrator was familiar with this general geographic area. He was someone who had connections in the area -- and not in just one discrete spot, but within a particular radius.
"Ground Zero" for him may have been closer to where Jared was taken. But, for example, what if this man was involved in something like -- youth hockey-- it is possible his role as a coach may have taken him to different locations in the surrounding area. And what if, for example, this man was perhaps also involved in some type of media role -- is it unreasonable to surmise his travels may have taken him in different locales within this area? Remember Jacob's Dad talking about feeling alarmed when he lost sight of Jacob at hockey practice? I still believe Jacob's Dad was having some parental intuition that day. I have had it myself at times as I'm sure many of you have --and you were probably right about what your gut was telling you. Who was in that hockey rink that set off Jerry Wetterling's parental intuition that danger might be afoot?

Taken from online CBS Minnesota 5/14/14:
"Sanner stressed there is another unsolved case that investigators have always linked to the abduction. Just months before Jacob Wetterling disappeared, a stranger kidnapped a 12-year-old boy named Jared in nearby Cold Spring. Jared told WCCO-TV the threat his kidnapper left him with: “I was told to run, don’t look back or he would shoot.”
"While driving back to town, the man kept questioning Jared about whether or not the boy could identify him.”
"Jared is speaking out for the first time in years. On Thursday, hear why he’s convinced the same man is behind all of these unsolved crimes against boys."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Taken from the Charley Project and I'm sure referenced in other MSM:
"The boys described the man as being 40-50, about 5'8 with a husky build. He had broad shoulders and spoke in a low raspy voice."


From Kare 11 Investigates
July 30, 2004
• Similar ages. Jared was 12. Jacob was 11.
• Similar Suspect Description. A lone, white male with a low, gravely voice.
• The location of the abductions. Jared was taken in Cold Spring, just ten miles from St. Joseph where Jacob disappeared.
• In each case, there was a threat of a gun.
• The sexual nature of each crime. In Jared's case, he was sexually assaulted. In Jacob's case, authorities confirm there was the suggestion of ‘sexual interest' in the boys.
• A mask. In Jared's case, the abductor forced the boy's cap over his eyes. In Jacob's case the abductor wore nylon stockings over his head.
• Similar commands. Jared was told to "run away and don't look back or I'll shoot." The boys with Jacob were told to "run into the woods and don't look back or I'll shoot."
------------------------------------

Article by: PAT DOYLE; STAFF WRITER, Star Tribune
Updated: December 14, 1989 - 10:00 PM
Police investigating the kidnapping of Jacob Wetterling said Thursday that they now have a prime suspect, a burly man who abducted and sexually assaulted another boy before releasing him...

The development came this week after three FBI interviews with a 12-year-old boy in Cold Spring, Minn., who told of being sexually assaulted last January. He described his assailant as a white man, 40 to 50 years old and wearing military-style fatigues and a baseball cap. Authorities had interviewed the boy previously but weren't certain until recently that his description was precise or that the abduction bore a strong similarity to the Wetterling kidnapping. "It's the guy we believe took Jacob," FBI agent Byron Gigler said yesterday...

"The person who abducted Jacob knows the community," Jamar said. Assuming that the Cold Spring abductor and Jacob's kidnapper are the same person, "He's there in January and he's there in October. Maybe he works in the area, has relatives there or travels through. Or lives there." Authorities cited a number of similarities between the abduction in Cold Spring and the kidnapping of Jacob. Moreover, the drawing of the prime suspect resembles an earlier sketch of a man wanted for questioning for following or otherwise bothering youngsters in the area. "They could be the same person," Jamar said...

"This guy was very aggressive, very commanding, almost like a military man," Gigler said
 
I think the possiblity for such a person to do Jared is good. But we know there was a suspect arrested and let go. Why, is my big question?

Was Jared not shown at least a picture of this guy?
 
Wisdom said:
My best guess after checking into this comment from Mazy is that the person was referring to the Shurter/Franklin scandal. Not sure however.
Click to expand...

I'm not very familiar with the Shurter/Franklin scandal so I will have to do some research on that. I was wondering what sex ring she could be referring to. After doing some research I hadn't come up with much about child sex rings in the Minneapolis or Midwest area. Thanks for the tip.
 
Wisdom said:
I've seen the name mentioned in the comment section on a couple articles in the past. Even came across the mention of "the miracle on ice" Herb years ago and did some looking into that.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah, I saw someone named Herb mentioned recently in a comment section. It made me curious because the poster seemed pretty sure he abducted Jacob. I know we have to take comments posted on media articles with a grain of salt because there are a lot of people trolling the internet and just trying to get a rise out of people, but sometimes I feel like SOMEONE knows something, or has a gut feeling. But they don't feel like reporting it to LE for what ever reason. I just think everything like that needs to be looked at and thought about. You never know.
 
ThePhantom said:
I'll respond with a line of thinking that keeps pushing me towards the perps being the same for Jacob and Jared and very possibly Paynesville. My apologies in advance as I know many of you here are veterans with the Wetterling case and have seen this info numerous times.

I just looked at a map again, and saw that the perp in Jared's case suddenly became angry when he realized he was late for an appointment at the Red Carpet Club. The RCC is about a half hour drive from Richmond, MN. Richmond to St. Joe's is about a twenty minute ride. The Red Carpet Club to St. Joe's is about a twenty minute ride. The perpetrator was familiar with this general geographic area. He was someone who had connections in the area -- and not in just one discrete spot, but within a particular radius.
"Ground Zero" for him may have been closer to where Jared was taken. But, for example, what if this man was involved in something like -- youth hockey-- it is possible his role as a coach may have taken him to different locations in the surrounding area. And what if, for example, this man was perhaps also involved in some type of media role -- is it unreasonable to surmise his travels may have taken him in different locales within this area? Remember Jacob's Dad talking about feeling alarmed when he lost sight of Jacob at hockey practice? I still believe Jacob's Dad was having some parental intuition that day. I have had it myself at times as I'm sure many of you have --and you were probably right about what your gut was telling you. Who was in that hockey rink that set off Jerry Wetterling's parental intuition that danger might be afoot?

Taken from online CBS Minnesota 5/14/14:
"Sanner stressed there is another unsolved case that investigators have always linked to the abduction. Just months before Jacob Wetterling disappeared, a stranger kidnapped a 12-year-old boy named Jared in nearby Cold Spring. Jared told WCCO-TV the threat his kidnapper left him with: “I was told to run, don’t look back or he would shoot.”
"While driving back to town, the man kept questioning Jared about whether or not the boy could identify him.”
"Jared is speaking out for the first time in years. On Thursday, hear why he’s convinced the same man is behind all of these unsolved crimes against boys."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Taken from the Charley Project and I'm sure referenced in other MSM:
"The boys described the man as being 40-50, about 5'8 with a husky build. He had broad shoulders and spoke in a low raspy voice."


From Kare 11 Investigates
July 30, 2004
• Similar ages. Jared was 12. Jacob was 11.
• Similar Suspect Description. A lone, white male with a low, gravely voice.
• The location of the abductions. Jared was taken in Cold Spring, just ten miles from St. Joseph where Jacob disappeared.
• In each case, there was a threat of a gun.
• The sexual nature of each crime. In Jared's case, he was sexually assaulted. In Jacob's case, authorities confirm there was the suggestion of ‘sexual interest' in the boys.
• A mask. In Jared's case, the abductor forced the boy's cap over his eyes. In Jacob's case the abductor wore nylon stockings over his head.
• Similar commands. Jared was told to "run away and don't look back or I'll shoot." The boys with Jacob were told to "run into the woods and don't look back or I'll shoot."
------------------------------------

Article by: PAT DOYLE; STAFF WRITER, Star Tribune
Updated: December 14, 1989 - 10:00 PM
Police investigating the kidnapping of Jacob Wetterling said Thursday that they now have a prime suspect, a burly man who abducted and sexually assaulted another boy before releasing him...

The development came this week after three FBI interviews with a 12-year-old boy in Cold Spring, Minn., who told of being sexually assaulted last January. He described his assailant as a white man, 40 to 50 years old and wearing military-style fatigues and a baseball cap. Authorities had interviewed the boy previously but weren't certain until recently that his description was precise or that the abduction bore a strong similarity to the Wetterling kidnapping. "It's the guy we believe took Jacob," FBI agent Byron Gigler said yesterday...

"The person who abducted Jacob knows the community," Jamar said. Assuming that the Cold Spring abductor and Jacob's kidnapper are the same person, "He's there in January and he's there in October. Maybe he works in the area, has relatives there or travels through. Or lives there." Authorities cited a number of similarities between the abduction in Cold Spring and the kidnapping of Jacob. Moreover, the drawing of the prime suspect resembles an earlier sketch of a man wanted for questioning for following or otherwise bothering youngsters in the area. "They could be the same person," Jamar said...

"This guy was very aggressive, very commanding, almost like a military man," Gigler said
Click to expand...

Great summary of data. Thank you Phantom!!!
 
People say really stupid things imitating people on the internet. Next it will be Andre Beaulieu, Paul Majors, Sid Hartman or Don Shelby commenting on 'cco message boards inciting good folk with gosh darn trickery.
 
chaplain1 said:
People say really stupid things imitating people on the internet. Next it will be Andre Beaulieu, Paul Majors, Sid Hartman or Don Shelby commenting on 'cco message boards inciting good folk with gosh darn trickery.
Click to expand...

It doesn't seem like there's a flood of tips and names coming in compared to how it probably used to be. At one point the case was probably so active, many things had to be put on the back burner because LE and investigators didn't have the energy or resources to deal with them all at once. Well now the case is less active and there's no reason every little detail, theory, name, tip, etc shouldn't be exhausted. There's nothing to lose by checking out these kind of things. I'm sure people are just messing around and posting dumb stuff in most cases, but what if they're not? I don't think any stone should be left unturned - no matter how insignificant or petty it seems. One random word or sentence that is seemingly irrelevant could be key.

However, I totally agree and I agree with whoever mentioned before that things posted by random people on online news articles should be taken with a grain of salt and we shouldn't jump to conclusions. In reality, we will still probably never know who Mazy's uncle is or who Herb is. But it's worth a try.
 
I am guessing -- and it is only a guess -- that perhaps the case isn't solved is because the right person has not been re-interviewed/re-examined for culpability in the case(s). If there was evidence, of any kind, can we know with certainty that it was properly preserved and if not, why not? Is it possible that certain evidence was deemed "inadmissible" because of _____________(fill in the blank).
 
My concern is that they received so many leads and tips in the early days of the case, and now those are all buried deep in those boxes at the Stearns County sheriffs office. I bet the perp is someone they've already come across, via a tip or even interviewed him already. Perhaps there wasn't enough evidence at the time so he was placed aside and now is lost in the mass of paperwork.
 
Since it's been 25 years, and apparently nothing substantive has panned out thus far with DR, is it too much to hope that the detectives in the Wetterling case have gone back to the beginning and re-examined the original suspects who had the highest potential for possible involvement?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I was struck by how deeply Aaron still feels about the loss of his friend, and how the voice of Jacob's abductor is still imprinted on his mind. I imagine it might be the same for Jared. I'd like to assume that both boys were given the opportunity to hear the voices of suspects who were pegged in the earliest days of the investigation. Something feels amiss. Someone knows this man and probably suspects him of being involved, but they have decided to remain silent.

As a side note, it took police over a decade to catch the east coast rapist. The zodiac killer has never been caught. BTK committed his crimes off and on for almost two decades, and the only way he was caught was because he started sending letters to police in 2004. The biggest difference in these examples is that no one suspected these men of their crimes, whereas there apparently are and have been credible suspects in Jacob's kidnapping.
I guess we'll never know whose pictures (and voices) the Wetterlings (And Aaron, Trevor and Jared) were allowed to see/hear. I'll take a stab in the dark and guess they were not allowed to see/hear a suspect that might have been responsible.

Maybe this perpetrator will take his dirty secret to the grave. And who knows, after he passes from this realm to the next, perhaps someone will finally find it within themselves to speak up. I keep hoping someone will decide to break the wall of silence in Josh Guimond’s case too. Twelve years and counting since he disappeared. The sheriff’s big revelation in that case was telling Josh’s mother that the turtles probably ate him.

“The golden eye of justice sees, and requites the unjust man.”
~ SOPHOCLES
 
thenotebook said:
My concern is that they received so many leads and tips in the early days of the case, and now those are all buried deep in those boxes at the Stearns County sheriffs office. I bet the perp is someone they've already come across, via a tip or even interviewed him already. Perhaps there wasn't enough evidence at the time so he was placed aside and now is lost in the mass of paperwork.
Click to expand...

I also definitely agree with this. I've watched a lot of true crime TV and in about 50% of the cases solved, LE is interviewed and they say they interviewed the suspect before and either didn't have the right evidence to nail them but knew that was probably the offender, or their alibi checked out or the investigation went in a different direction and were completely dismissed as a suspect for what ever reason.
 
Has anyone seen the news story about the girl who was put into child sex slavery ring by a rich NY lawyer and flown to different countries to have sex with the rich and famous including a prince? I believe someone kidnapped Jacob and (Johnny G among other boys in the midwest) and put them in some sort of child sex ring. That is why he looked into their face and asked their age and took him away instead of molesting him right there and let him go. One such ring operated in the US from 1960 to 1977 (and possibly into the 80s and still running today). They kidnapped boys from the midwest and took them to NY to have sex with prominent but closeted gay men. The bribing would net the ring thousands for each bribe. Some johns committed suicide. They convinced the boys their parents will not love them anymore now that they are "damaged goods" so they didn't return home. MUST read http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...reyed_on_prominent_gay_men_in_the_1960s_.html
 
the poor victims of another child sex ring were labled liars and put in jail for perjury. I can't remember their names offhand. I think this type of crime is often labled a conspiracy or the rich people have better lawyers and get off scott free. It's a large wall for many victims to climb. Rmembered a name- Alisha Owen.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Fairfield County Jane Doe (1993)?

Members online

... and 166 more.
Total: 433 (members: 167, guests: 266)

Online statistics

Members online
167
Guests online
266
Total visitors
433
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
609,784
Messages
18,257,975
Members
234,759
Latest member
Delk
Back
Top