MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #9

[Sigrun]

[facepalm] There go those odds again. Grrr. But if S1 was with/around S2 9 months earlier - or at least in the area, I'd think that'd need some kind of evidence, especially assuming the parents weren't in Europe 9 months earlier. But I suppose there could also be the lack of evidence to strengthen this assumption. Grrrr. LH has some explaining to do IMO in this hypothetical.

lol, I'm not disagreeing with you about evidence. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking, is he most likely responsible? They really are not the same question because evidence has rules based on a need for certainty, not just odds. It's simple:

The M.O. matches. The pics match. He's known S2 for decades. JEW is abducted on his property. Figure the odds. You can't convict on this obvious fact because you have to show opportunity. They can't even show he was in MN I'd imagine.

~ svh

 

[Caoutchouc]

Consider the following thought experiment:

Thus, you seal warrants so S2 doesn't know what you know, and you try to either get evidence of such visits or you try not to dissuade the two from visiting each other, and maybe try to find out when/if they plan to visit again.

~ svh

Fair point. However my issue is that was 4 years ago (2010) on now an almost 25 year old "active" cold case with no new evidence. (I'm obviously quite vocal about the lack of transparency of LE across the board on this)

 

[Sigrun]

Fair point. However my issue is that was 4 years ago (2010) on now an almost 25 year old "active" cold case with no new evidence. (I'm obviously quite vocal about the lack of transparency of LE across the board on this)

Well, we didn't know about S1 until a year ago. LE might have learned about him, say, in 2003. And ever since they have being trying honey pot traps to get the two to meet, preferably in MN (hypothetical). At least they could show something tangible. My opinion is FBI should run con jobs in Utah on this guy and get him to confess w/o realizing he's doing it. There are ways, imo.

~ svh

 

[bessie]

In any missing person case, has a person been found because of a sighting?

How many people want to help and think they saw something?

How many people want attention so they make up stuff for attention?

How many people think it is funny to pretend to have seen him or call the home pretending to be him?

Shasta Groene immediately comes to mind. More often than not, however, sightings don't pan out for the reasons you stated, particularly the first one.

Although the initial praise for the rescue focused on waitress Amber Deahn and restaurant manager Linda Olson, the FBI decided that customers Nicholas Chapman and Chris Donlan also should be rewarded for spotting the girl and calling authorities, a source at the FBI who did not want to be identified told The Associated Press today.
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2002495370_webshasta14.html

 

[HEY YOU!]

Well Sasquatch, it probably means he's a person of interest because he is. They need to show he had a visitor, that this person had opportunity.

~ svh

Why do you keep insisting on a 2nd person? There is no evidence of a 2nd person, and you mention LH but there is no proof of him being at the scene or even in St Joseph that night. Why can't DR have done this on his own without a 'visitor?'

 

[Sigrun]

Why do you keep insisting on a 2nd person? There is no evidence of a 2nd person, and you mention LH but there is no proof of him being at the scene or even in St Joseph that night. Why can't DR have done this on his own without a 'visitor?'

All those points I discussed over several pages. If you have a specific point or correction to my logic please let me know, but beyond that I think we just disagree.

~ svh

 

[Marzipan]

imo, the continuous track doesn't rule anything out. I've seen dozens of dirt tracks of cars where cars continued, stopped, sat and proceeded and all they leave is a continuous, contiguous track. But, the part about JEW stepping out is interesting. The only thing I'd question is that I think there is a line of JEW footprints leading right up to that last impression.

And I wouldn't know about identifying specific cars, but I think it's obvious that if a track is too narrow to be a modern belted radial then you can exclude a very large class of cars. Doesn't really tell you what car, but definitely narrows down the set of cars possible.

~ svh

Maybe I need to go back to school on the case facts if you have read from a credible source that there was a line of Jacob's footprints. I only know of one footprint. My idea about Jacob's print resulting from him trying to descend from a vehicle rather than getting into one is based on there being one print only. So if I'm wrong on that, please do set me straight.

 

[HEY YOU!]

All those points I discussed over several pages. If you have a specific point or correction to my logic please let me know, but beyond that I think we just disagree.

~ svh

I find it difficult to read your posts and to understand exactly what you are saying at times.

 

[Sigrun]

Maybe I need to go back to school on the case facts if you have read from a credible source that there was a line of Jacob's footprints. I only know of one footprint. My idea about Jacob's print resulting from him trying to descend from a vehicle rather than getting into one is based on there being one print only. So if I'm wrong on that, please do set me straight.

Well, right, you're making me wonder now. I thought I heard the foot steps came from the roadway and continued 40 yards. That was the language used over and over, wasn't it? It could be journalistic license but I think that is how they were saying it.

If there was an interruption in the steps just before the last impression I think trying to decipher whether it was an upward or downward motion could be difficult (it could point either way).

~ svh

 

[Trino]

Sigrun, if you're so certain of two suspects, why not take your theory to LE? Writing it online does not solve a case.

 

[Sigrun]

I find it difficult to read your posts and to understand exactly what you are saying at times.

The fresh adult prints around JEW's are insufficient in number to account for an adult getting into the car with JEW. JEW's print being next to a tire track, in that orientation, and the nature of the tracking scent, is unlikely unless he was getting into a car. Someone most likely lifted him into the car, based again on that orientation and the nature of the impression (see Tracker's post on all this). Someone led him from the roadway because that is how he was abducted to start with.

Ergo, one person had to be outside leading him to the car, and one had to be in the car lifting him into it.

2 people minimum. There are any number of acrobatics we could imagine to explain this with one person, but the simplest explanation is 2 people.

~ svh

 

[cGorg]

Sigrun,
I have a few questions as well....but as a layperson...am awaiting the completion of your narrative. It appears it is tying many things together that formerly seemed separate. Please continue on!

 

[Marzipan]

The fresh adult prints around JEW's are insufficient in number to account for an adult getting into the car with JEW. JEW's print being next to a tire track, in that orientation, and the nature of the tracking scent, is unlikely unless he was getting into a car. Someone most likely lifted him into the car, based again on that orientation and the nature of the impression (see Tracker's post on all this). Someone led him from the roadway because that is how he was abducted to start with.

Ergo, one person had to be outside leading him to the car, and one had to be in the car lifting him into it.

2 people minimum. There are any number of acrobatics we could imagine to explain this with one person, but the simplest explanation is 2 people.

~ svh

I think the footprint orientation works fine for Jacob descending from a vehicle. I'm picturing he is on a vehicle--cart or truck bed or whatever up a bit high, then facing the vehicle he tries to climb out (like when you club down from a fence or ladder). One foot hits dirt and he tries to land, all weight on foot, but is pulled back up.

But neither of us are sure about number of apparent Jacob prints, so we need a long-timer to please clarify. If there are other prints, as if walking toward the tire tracks, then I will withdraw this idea.

 

[HEY YOU!]

The fresh adult prints around JEW's are insufficient in number to account for an adult getting into the car with JEW. JEW's print being next to a tire track, in that orientation, and the nature of the tracking scent, is unlikely unless he was getting into a car. Someone most likely lifted him into the car, based again on that orientation and the nature of the impression (see Tracker's post on all this). Someone led him from the roadway because that is how he was abducted to start with.

Ergo, one person had to be outside leading him to the car, and one had to be in the car lifting him into it.

2 people minimum. There are any number of acrobatics we could imagine to explain this with one person, but the simplest explanation is 2 people.

~ svh

Or the perp made a good effort to erase their tracks on the walk with Jacob up the driveway before they went into the grass and missed one, 15 minutes later Kevin drives up the driveway right next to the print that was left leaving tire print next to footprint

Or, perp comes out to erase evidence after cops have gone home and sees Kevin's tire track (which must have scared the crap out of him because that is when he had Jacob in the house) Plants Jacob's sneaker impression next to tire track to throw off investigators and erases any of his prints that he can find.

I think they waited to collect footprint evidence in the daylight. Correct me if I'm wrong. Did they take pictures of the crime scene that night?

All just my opinion of course.

 

[shergal]

A while back we discussed a show that aired on TV about Jacob Wetterling. I subscribed to a "locate TV" site at the time, and they just sent me a notice that it will be on again this coming week - on Thursday morning. Those who saw it last time thought it was well done, so mark your calendars if you want to see it (or record it) this time. (They don't rerun it very often.)

Title: A Mother's Search
Desc: Patty Wetterling's 11-year-old son is kidnapped; Patty turns her search into a national crusade to find other missing children.
Host: Chris Cuomo
Originally aired as: Season 2 Episode 23 of 20/20 on ID

Next Airing:
Thursday, June 5th, 2014 8:00am
20/20 on ID • A Mother's Search on Investigation Discovery HD

Investigation Discovery is available locally on:
Channel 192 on DISH
Channel 285 on Direct TV
Channel 210 on Charter

To find it in your area check here:
http://www.investigationdiscovery.com/channel-finder.htm

 

[human]

I have some questions about Father Tom Gillespie.

I believe he is the one who made the aerial photos that DR provided to Joy.

How does a priest get enough money to fly a plane??

How good of friends was DR with Gillespie?

Little planes are mot monitored very much. Does Gillespie own the plane or the church or whose plane is it?

Did he go for a flight in the time after the abduction?

 

[shergal]

I think the footprint orientation works fine for Jacob descending from a vehicle. I'm picturing he is on a vehicle--cart or truck bed or whatever up a bit high, then facing the vehicle he tries to climb out (like when you club down from a fence or ladder). One foot hits dirt and he tries to land, all weight on foot, but is pulled back up.

But neither of us are sure about number of apparent Jacob prints, so we need a long-timer to please clarify. If there are other prints, as if walking toward the tire tracks, then I will withdraw this idea.

Thanks for explaining this. I couldn't picture before how his footprint could be "backward" if he was getting out of a car. But trying to climb down from the back of a pickup truck (or cart) makes perfect sense.

 

[Sasquatch321]

Thanks for explaining this. I couldn't picture before how his footprint could be "backward" if he was getting out of a car. But trying to climb down from the back of a pickup truck (or cart) makes perfect sense.

But in the back of our mind is the fact that Kevin created the illusion of a vehicle abducting Jacob. Before that the boys heard or saw no vehicle on their way to or back from the store. If there was miniscule evidence of another vehicle between the times of 915 and 945 than LE could not publically claim all tire tracks are accounted for, or that the cold spring case is not likely linked.

 

[Sigrun]

I think the footprint orientation works fine for Jacob descending from a vehicle. I'm picturing he is on a vehicle--cart or truck bed or whatever up a bit high, then facing the vehicle he tries to climb out (like when you club down from a fence or ladder). One foot hits dirt and he tries to land, all weight on foot, but is pulled back up.

But neither of us are sure about number of apparent Jacob prints, so we need a long-timer to please clarify. If there are other prints, as if walking toward the tire tracks, then I will withdraw this idea.

That seems logical, but I think it is really a two-part question for us. Do the prints diminish or disappear only close to the vehicle, or several feet back? I ask because if he descended we need to also account for his ascent.

~ svh

 

[Sigrun]

Or the perp made a good effort to erase their tracks on the walk with Jacob up the driveway before they went into the grass and missed one, 15 minutes later Kevin drives up the driveway right next to the print that was left leaving tire print next to footprint

Or, perp comes out to erase evidence after cops have gone home and sees Kevin's tire track (which must have scared the crap out of him because that is when he had Jacob in the house) Plants Jacob's sneaker impression next to tire track to throw off investigators and erases any of his prints that he can find.

I think they waited to collect footprint evidence in the daylight. Correct me if I'm wrong. Did they take pictures of the crime scene that night?

All just my opinion of course.

Any of these alternatives could be true, but they don't seem like the simplest explanation to me.

Related to that, if JEW stepped off we might ask, were they moving or not when that happened? If they were moving I don't think we'd get a clean print. If they were stopped, why if they already have their cargo on board? Something to think about.

~ svh