MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #9

[TroyinTX]

I guess I never assumed that fact that Jacob's footprints ended halfway up the drive and meaning that a vehicle was involved, but rather that was the point the perp lifted him and carried him to his desired destination.

 

[Pensfan]

The final link you posted made no reference to cadaverine and how it has applied to the search warrant. Repost the correct link please.

If you haven't followed this case, start from the first thread and catch up. Google can be your friend. Many of the 2010 articles are also no longer available on the Internet. To read some old articles, you have to use such sites as I posted above to read the articles in their entirety.

Try to understand that cadaver dogs (plural) were brought from out-of-state to Dan's house. Through the cadaver dogs efforts, they identified objects from Dan's garage which LE confiscated and continues to hold as evidence. With the findings from the cadaver dogs on day#1 of the 2010 search, LE was able to obtain more search warrants for the inside of Dan's home.

LE didn't play Eenie Meenie Miney Mo to select the objects from Dan's garage which LE has RETAINED AS EVIDENCE. Cadaver dogs only identify cadaverine therefore, Dan's garage had objects in it which reeked of cadaverine. One of these objects was a cedar chest. (Scary!)

 

[FindTim]

I've followed this case from the beginning.

It should be noted that cadaver dogs are not 100% successful. And to say they "reeked of cadaverine" is noting that you have first hand experience in this particular case, as that has not been made public knowledge.

If they reeked and both Jacob's and DR's DNA has been submitted and tested, what is LE waiting for than?

Cadaver dogs only identify cadaverine therefore, Dan's garage had objects in it which reeked of cadaverine. One of these objects was a cedar chest. (Scary!)

 

[FindTim]

And that's where Jacob's scent stopped as well. Police dogs tracked his scent to that location as well. If he was hiked onto DR's shoulders they would have followed it further.

I guess I never assumed that fact that Jacob's footprints ended halfway up the drive and meaning that a vehicle was involved, but rather that was the point the perp lifted him and carried him to his desired destination.

 

[Caoutchouc]

One of the best examples of cadaver dogs demonstrating both a hit and a miss is in the case of Caylee Anthony. Dogs "hit" on the trunk but failed to find the body, though they'd combed the area where the body was ultimately located (and only found haphazardly by a utility worker)
It's not an exact science by any means. Many references (pro and con) can be found here
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...state243-sw3d-30texapphouston-1-dist2007.html

 

[Pensfan]

I've followed this case from the beginning.

It should be noted that cadaver dogs are not 100% successful. And to say they "reeked of cadaverine" is noting that you have first hand experience in this particular case, as that has not been made public knowledge.

If they reeked and both Jacob's and DR's DNA has been submitted and tested, what is LE waiting for than?

There can be cadaverine smell, but damaged DNA (someone washed the cedar chest with a product that damaged the DNA that Jacob's body deposited).

As I explained previously, LE saves evidence to reprocess it with new technology. For example:
-The blood/bodily fluid splatter may be too small to process with today's technology.
-Remaining undamaged nucleotides in the chest might someday be able to be realigned as a DNA strand.

 

[Pensfan]

One of the best examples of cadaver dogs demonstrating both a hit and a miss is in the case of Caylee Anthony. Dogs "hit" on the trunk but failed to find the body, though they'd combed the area where the body was ultimately located (and only found haphazardly by a utility worker)
It's not an exact science by any means. Many references (pro and con) can be found here
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...state243-sw3d-30texapphouston-1-dist2007.html

The cadaver dogs used for Caylee were sadly not the FBI's highly trained dogs, but an Orange County deputy's cadaver dog with unknown training.

For Jacob's case, the FBI put TWO of THEIR expertly-trained dogs on an airplane and flew them to Minnesota. The FBI's dogs are trained with actual human cadaverine. If each dog had an accuracy rate of 98%, that's reduces random error to almost ZERO. This means that Dan's garage had items that reeked of human cadaverine.

Here is a study showing 98% accuracy for cadaver dogs.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...uth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

 

[Pensfan]

And that's where Jacob's scent stopped as well. Police dogs tracked his scent to that location as well. If he was hiked onto DR's shoulders they would have followed it further.

bbm
Provide a link.

 

[Caoutchouc]

The cadaver dogs used for Caylee were sadly not the FBI's highly trained dogs, but an Orange County deputy's cadaver dog with unknown training.

For Jacob's case, the FBI put TWO of THEIR expertly-trained dogs on an airplane and flew them to Minnesota. The FBI's dogs are trained with actual human cadaverine. If each dog had an accuracy rate of 98%, that's reduces random error to almost ZERO. This means that Dan's garage had items that reeked of human cadaverine.

Here is a study showing 98% accuracy for cadaver dogs.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...uth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

You're grossly misstating the findings in this study.
The 98% pertains to a VERY specific set of conditions

"Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation."

 

[Pensfan]

You're grossly misstating the findings in this study.
The 98% pertains to a VERY specific set of conditions

"Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation."

If you don't like the 98% accuracy rate conditions, consider two of the FBI's cadaver dogs with a 94% accuracy rate. That also leaves extremely little random error. Dan's garage had items in it that reeked of cadaverine.

 

[Pensfan]

And that's where Jacob's scent stopped as well. Police dogs tracked his scent to that location as well. If he was hiked onto DR's shoulders they would have followed it further.

Two of the FBI's cadaver dogs examined Dan's garage in 2010. LE removed and kept a cedar chest from that garage in 2010. Perhaps Dan grabbed Jacob and threw him into that cedar chest (which LE now has as evidence) and THAT'S why Jacob's footprints and scent disappeared on the driveway. Dan is a strong man. You can see him lifting HUGE logs on his FB page. He could easily carry a cedar chest with a child inside.

 

[Caoutchouc]

If you don't like the 98% accuracy rate conditions, consider two of the FBI's cadaver dogs with a 94% accuracy rate. That also leaves extremely little random error. Dan's garage had items in it that reeked of cadaverine.

It's not about what I like- its about the facts of this study. 94% accuracy is within 1 month of coming into contact with a decaying corpse
In the case of Jacob, we're talking about 20 years! (presence of a human corpse unknown)

(and please note I'm saying this respectfully. I didn't know the bit about the local sheriff dogs being used in Caylee's case as opposed to the FBI's dogs. Do you happen to know why/when certain dogs of various degrees are used? Anyway, thanks- I learned smthg!
(...and because the dog and his owner (sheriff in FL) testified, the dog's training would be on the court's record- open to scrutiny and cross exinination)

 

[Wisdom]

Random thought hit me today while passing some joggers. I wonder what DR typically wore in 1989 for running clothes? Mens black nylon running tights by any chance?

 

[FindTim]

The link provided offered nothing in relation to cadaver dogs. I would really like to see where LE noted that the chest "reeked" of cadaverine.

http://www.immelman.us/news/wetterling-suspect-dan-rassier/

 

[Ifollowthis]

Random thought hit me today while passing some joggers. I wonder what DR typically wore in 1989 for running clothes? Mens black nylon running tights by any chance?

I was thinking the abductor was wearing black boots, I am not sure they would have been fashionable with running tights ;-) .

 

[FindTim]

And where are the remnants of the cedar chest imprints on the Earth? Where are DR's footprints as he marched Jacob towards the chest?

Two of the FBI's cadaver dogs examined Dan's garage in 2010. LE removed and kept a cedar chest from that garage in 2010. Perhaps Dan grabbed Jacob and threw him into that cedar chest (which LE now has as evidence) and THAT'S why Jacob's footprints and scent disappeared on the driveway. Dan is a strong man. You can see him lifting HUGE logs on his FB page. He could easily carry a cedar chest with a child inside.

 

[FindTim]

I've read on multiple sites that the 94% accuracy is when the scent is REASONABLY fresh. 20 year old scents aren't reasonably fresh.

This article touches on the facts that dogs can mistake swine for human scents. Also, the sample of burying a 30 year old vertebra in 12 inches of soil isn't an accurate depiction. Now if the vertebra had been in that location for 30 years that would more apples to apples.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html

If you don't like the 98% accuracy rate conditions, consider two of the FBI's cadaver dogs with a 94% accuracy rate. That also leaves extremely little random error. Dan's garage had items in it that reeked of cadaverine.

 

[Caoutchouc]

I've read on multiple sites that the 94% accuracy is when the scent is REASONABLY fresh. 20 year old scents aren't reasonably fresh.

I think it's safe to say that whether or not the dogs may or may have not hit on something at DR's farm, it can be said that what they found was inclusive at best, merely given the fact DR was not arrested

 

[Wisdom]

I was thinking the abductor was wearing black boots, I am not sure they would have been fashionable with running tights ;-) .

No....but like pantyhose...those thin nylon running tights or shorts sure could double as a make shift mask in a jiffy couldn't they. That is what I was thinking about

 

[Pensfan]

It's not about what I like- its about the facts of this study. 94% accuracy is within 1 month of coming into contact with a decaying corpse
In the case of Jacob, we're talking about 20 years! (presence of a human corpse unknown)

(and please note I'm saying this respectfully. I didn't know the bit about the local sheriff dogs being used in Caylee's case as opposed to the FBI's dogs. Do you happen to know why/when certain dogs of various degrees are used? Anyway, thanks- I learned smthg!
(...and because the dog and his owner (sheriff in FL) testified, the dog's training would be on the court's record- open to scrutiny and cross exinination)

My knowledge on cadaver dogs comes from a friend who is married to a canine officer. There are several very nice search and rescue dog handlers on this forum that may have links for you. Find the professional posters thread and you can identify them for a private message.

Many scent dogs, as well as police dogs, come from very specific pedigree lines which are bred to do investigative work. The litters are tested around 4-6 weeks old to determine which are the best scent dogs. The selected puppies are trained with human cadaverine, not pig cadaverine. Many in my area are imported from Germany at the cost of $20,000-$30,000. If you listen carefully you can hear their handler using commands in German.

Almost every summer, another article appears on how a local cadaver dog found more Civil War bones at Gettysburg. Cadaverine from Jacob would be an easy find for such dogs.

Here is one example of a line specifically bred for scent investigation work.
http://vombanachk9.com/our-dogs-in-action/detection-dogs/