StephanieH
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They are still searching around Keller Lake, so I am guessing the "item" was found near where the body is supposed to be located.
GUILTY MN - Kira Trevino, 30, St Paul, 22 February 2013
- Thread starter amberdawn723
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First, according to this media report - the bag was found in the water. With the state of journalism today, and without the LE telling us specifically where the plastic bag was found I don't think we can know for sure whether it was in the water or not... Other articles I read say "near" Keller Lake, some have said "at" the Lake, etc...
All Speculation ahead:
As for why two men would be struggling carrying a body of a woman 5'4" and around 120 lbs.?
First of all they were walking on ice. Secondly, they were assuredly a little nervous. It could just be that "dead weight" as they say is a lot harder to carry than a live person. There is no muscle tone to assist in keeping the body's shape while being carried.
Also take into account that after moving the body, lifting it into a car or whatever, and figuring out what they were going to do I would imagine it would be a bit tiring - don't know if the apartment was cleaned before or after getting rid of any evidence, but that could also explain a lot. Take into account that there is no indication of whether JT (or the other person, if that really was them) were intoxicated at all that night.
These are all speculative possibilities, but I would go with the first point personally - they were carrying something heavy and awkwardly shaped across a frozen lake, and I would assume they weren't wearing Ice Cleats...
In regard to how someone may have seen them - I see many have already posted possibilities. A nearly full moon, reflecting off of ice and snow would provide enough ambient light to see 2 figures on the ice carrying something, even if one couldn't positively identify them, or what they were carrying. We also don't know from what position the witness was in when he/she saw what she/he reported.
As always, all of the above is MOO! :cow:
ETA:
Another thing that could definitely corroborate what the tipster reported about seeing two people on the ice walking with something across the surface:
I also note that they state there are several private homes along the shore where the cadaver dogs hit. It may be quite possible that whomever witnessed the figures had a very good view of the lake itself, and that they possibly live in one of the homes bordering the lake.
(The possible scenario above was incidentally my gut feeling/first thought about how someone saw them, but at the time I didn't know if there were houses nearby or not. Not saying I have psychic abilities or something of that nature mind you, but I just thought that someone driving by wouldn't be able to recognize what they saw in the short time passing the lake. That someone would have to have a little bit of time to identify what they were seeing, and someone who had looked out upon the lake daily would notice something amiss vs. someone driving by.)
states kira last seen @ 2120 hrs on 2-21, yet makes point of cell phone not used after 2200 hrs. curious! when was her cell last used and by whom?
Also, JT may not be smart as some have implied, but how stupid could he be to tell police in reporting his wife missing that he just found out she's been lying about where she had been staying away from home. He just supplied a motive. Where had she been staying? No one has said. Maybe, boyfriend on the side?
Also, JT may not be smart as some have implied, but how stupid could he be to tell police in reporting his wife missing that he just found out she's been lying about where she had been staying away from home. He just supplied a motive. Where had she been staying? No one has said. Maybe, boyfriend on the side?
I know what the item in question is but can't release that info until LE does. I was at some of the searches there and a couple of items were found. One was a scarf that probably isn't related to the case. There was another search done at an area closer to the mall of america. Some items were found there (no idea if they are related to Kira's care or not) but LE may be taking a look at that area as well.
Also I believe Kira was attacked while she was sleeping since so much blood was found on the mattress/boxspring and that area. As well as them finding a blood pillow/pillow case and other items that haven't been released to the public info yet.
Also I believe Kira was attacked while she was sleeping since so much blood was found on the mattress/boxspring and that area. As well as them finding a blood pillow/pillow case and other items that haven't been released to the public info yet.
Wolf Dreamer
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thank you for the update, Valen - and thank you for looking for Kira.
I understand the need to not release the information publicly, so I am not asking you to do that, just trying to clarify things in my own mind a bit...
As far as the pillow/pillow case and "other items" - would those be the items stated in the amended complaint filed on 3/22?
Are there additional items found along with those items that you are referring to, or do you mean the items found that the media has a picture of that are wrapped in the brown paper?
Also, can you clarify for me if the "pillow/pillow case, sports bra, shirt, and sponge" were found in the plastic bag, or not? One more question - again just for clarification due to the variety of ways it has been reported in the media - do you know if the plastic bag was found in the water, or was it found near the water?
Again, I understand completely if you can't answer some of these or offer clarification on some of the points. I don't want to get anyone in trouble, or compromise the continued investigation at all.
TIA for any answers, or to anyone else who can help me get some of these facts straight... Apologies if I'm adding to any confusion.
One more question I have (sorry - I've still got a few) - has there been any word in regard to the roommate? Further questioning? Any cooperation? Really curious about him at this point - especially as it would relate to the tip that bore pretty specific results. How could he not have heard or noticed something? I find that very, very hard to believe...
GreenTeam
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The witness who saw the two men on the lake was driving by:
http://maplewood-oakdale-northstpau...462-search-continues-kira-trevino-keller-lake
http://maplewood-oakdale-northstpau...462-search-continues-kira-trevino-keller-lake
GreenTeam
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(respectfully snipped by me)
Those items were found in a plastic bag:
http://maplewood-oakdale-northstpau...462-search-continues-kira-trevino-keller-lake
Thank you... There have been so many different articles, and so many different statements made that I can't keep all of them straight coming into this from rather late. :blush:
Thanks again. I appreciate it.
To the first part yes. Those are the items. There are also a couple of items found in the plastic bag that are not mentioned in that report. It was not found in the water it was found under snow and it was near the lake area but not like it was put there to be in the lake. It looked like it was thrown from a car window close to the side of the road.
SteveP
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That was my first thought when I saw the picture, but if you look closer at the pic, the tape in the middle seems to be securing something too thick to be a weight bar. I live in the south, so have never seen one other than a picture of one, but could it be an ice auger? Could they be that thick in the middle portion, or be as heavy as that thing in the photo seems to be, judging from the way the officer is carrying it?? JMO
Not to discourage any part of Keller Lake not to be search thoroughly, but do the auth have any kind of map marking the areas in which items have been found that are tied to Kira? I dont think the person(s) responsible for her death was smart enough to spread items around the lake. I believe they would have just dumped the items in one area in hopes of hiding them.
I am a avid diver and with the limited to almost no current at this time of year in Keller lake I would not believe if her body was truly dumped in the hole that was cut in the lake that it would travel far. As one person noted on the forum a dead body would sink, but depending on if the air remaining in the lungs was replaced by water. This would depend on how a body is dumped into a body of water. Also the max depth of Keller Lake in roughly 8 feet
A person who is killed on the surface and then put in the water tends to float, since the lungs are still full of air (*although see below). That's how pathologists can tell whether a person was drowned or was dead before hitting the water.
* Body position. A person who was dead before entering the water can still sink depending on the position of the body. If the body is upright when dumped into the water, water can enter the lungs while air escapes. Hence, the body sinks after a short time. If the body is prone (face down), the air in the lungs can't escape, so the body floats.
I have a friend which is a pathologists hence this is where I obtained this information
I am a avid diver and with the limited to almost no current at this time of year in Keller lake I would not believe if her body was truly dumped in the hole that was cut in the lake that it would travel far. As one person noted on the forum a dead body would sink, but depending on if the air remaining in the lungs was replaced by water. This would depend on how a body is dumped into a body of water. Also the max depth of Keller Lake in roughly 8 feet
A person who is killed on the surface and then put in the water tends to float, since the lungs are still full of air (*although see below). That's how pathologists can tell whether a person was drowned or was dead before hitting the water.
* Body position. A person who was dead before entering the water can still sink depending on the position of the body. If the body is upright when dumped into the water, water can enter the lungs while air escapes. Hence, the body sinks after a short time. If the body is prone (face down), the air in the lungs can't escape, so the body floats.
I have a friend which is a pathologists hence this is where I obtained this information
As the news reported the auth wrapped the item in paper bags, so the ends sem to be pretty close to having a paper bag opened toards the botton hense the reason the item may have looks to be larger on both ends.
GreenTeam
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Yes, you are right that it could be an ice auger perhaps. They are generally large and heavy at the top (where the motor is), then they are thin in the middle (like a bar), with blades spiraling at the bottom.
I think nowadays the most usual kind is with a motor attached, but they still sell the old-fashioned manual auger as well - I've attached pictures of both kinds to this post. (Hope I did that correctly)
Attachments
I dont think it is a Ice Auger, but again maybe it is, the way the officer is carrying it, it seems that part on his left is heavier. The only part that is odd is why would you dump everything in one area if that was the case. Also as I stated before in a post maybe Keller Lake was used to dump the items used in this matter and dump a body else where. Is it possible that the dogs are only picking up a signal from those type of items?
Yes Tonto I agree with you, that is strange, but if there was a second person I am sure the only person that would know is the other person that as with them, and they obviosly are not talking
In studying the Dylan Redwine case, where much attention is right now focused upon Vallecito Lake as a possible site where he may be found, I have learned many things about this subject.
First, regardless of whether or not someone drowns, or if they are deceased upon entering the water, their body will sink (unless any possible air trapped in clothing is enough to retain buoyancy of the body, but that is if the person is wearing clothing that is capable of actually trapping air. A nude body, for instance would sink immediately).
When someone drowns their lungs fill with water, and the body sinks. When someone is already deceased, they have no air in their lungs that would create buoyancy at that point - the lungs deflate (hence what people refer to as the
How long the body will remain under water before surfacing has mostly to do with the temperature of the body of water itself. A body floating to the surface does so because of putrefaction (gases and such that occur as a result of the chemical changes caused by decomposition). When these gases reach a point within the body it then becomes *lighter* than the water, so to speak, and then the body floats up to the surface.
In warm water that may take as little as 3 days. In very cold water, it could take many weeks before decomposition really even sets in due to the temperature slowing down bacterial growth a lot.
Another factor in regard to a body floating would be whether or not the body was weighted down, or whether or not there are trees and branches at the bottom of the body of water in which a body may be stuck on... Either of those things being present would presumably allow even a body in warmer water to stay submerged longer... Won't get into detail on that part as it's rather gory at that point.
Excerpt:
In summary - whether a person is alive and drowns, or a person's body is deposited into a body of water, they will sink to the bottom. A corpse will always maintain a position of head-down lower than the rest of the body at the neck. This is similar to the "dead man's float" taught in swimming classes, although this positioning is also maintained below the surface. If the body is moved along by a current this will be evidenced by post-mortem injuries to the top/front portion of the head as that is what will come into contact with any debris on the bed of the lake, creek, or river...
How long a person's body will remain submerged in the water does not depend on if they drowned, or if they were deceased. The biggest factor is the temperature of the water as it relates to the rate of putrefaction of the body. Cold water can delay this process very significantly (as can be seen by the estimates of bodies floating up in the Thames River at different times of the year, and the fact that oceans and the Great Lakes many times never "give up their dead" due to the extreme cold temperatures found at the bottom).
Thus, it is not a matter of "if" a body will sink or not, but rather how long it will be until said body will rise to the surface and float.
dlink: I'm sure your pathologist friend may have just given you the short quick explanation. Yes, all bodies in water will float, eventually. However, they will not float immediately unless a considerable amount of air is trapped in clothing, and in the absence of trapped air in the clothing they will never float before they have sunk to the bottom and the decomposition process and putrefaction reaches the stage where the gases are of such a volume as to make the body buoyant enough to rise to the surface again.
There is a lot more information on this subject available at the link above - I only excerpted a very small portion at the very end of the document. There is much documented evidence for what is explained in this post.
As always, all of the above is MOO, (unless there is a link cited to back-up my claims)! :cow:
ETA: CORRECTION: * The death rattle isn't actually when the lungs relax and let out all of the air. It's actually the sound of saliva in the throat that occurs shortly before death. My apologies for that mistake. Regardless, immediately after death the muscles completely relax, and any remaining air would be expelled. (I'm looking for a specific link to back this up, though - just for good measure.)
ETA:
dlink - I don't know how to ask this without sounding rude... Are you sure you got your information from a friend who is a pathologist, and not from information in a Yahoo! Answer article that references a mailbag answer on the Straight Dope website which discusses Huckleberry Finn, and if someone hit with a cannon would float in the water???
The reason I as is because I found the exact wording you used in your post here:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006020700794
which referenced -
http://www.straightdope.com/columns...n-cause-a-drowned-body-to-rise-to-the-surface
BBM
Why wouldn't you just link to the information instead of copying it, and then not citing where you got the information from? This is a word-for-word quote, and not information you got from a "pathologist friend", is it? It's not really helpful to forward information not based upon scientific facts. And particularly when the information is word for word from Yahoo! answers and a forum discussing a novel...
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