MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #10

[Csquare]

There have been many conversations between my "boomer" friends and myself, all of whom are parents & even grandparents now who have noticed the huge change in today's youth today who have been reared in the computer generation. The techno world out there today puts any kind of information, violence, adult type content out there at the touch of a keyboard or hand held device.

Face to face communication and interactions have been replaced with technology. Someone may live in a rural area in the middle of nowhere, but is connected to the world through cyberspace. The increase in violence,TV, Movies, the pushing of the envelope in any area of entertainment and the arts has muddied the boundaries. How many spend even half the amount of time reading a book as they do in front of a computer or the TV? So there is access to any kind of information, a thrill a minute, but it takes more and more hype to hold ones attention, because we a numbed by all the sensory overload.
Just my observations.

IMO we have become such a fast paced society that we don't slow down, sit down and talk. How many people actully eat at a dinner table? How often do we sit down with out the tv and ask the kids about THEIR day instead of bellyaching about ours? I know technology is a good thing but a good ole dose of yesterday is not a bad thing. Lets slow down and savor life instead of going 1,000 miles an hour and getting to the end and trying to figure out what the heck happened. Our children and their children will be better off, IMHO.

 

[hellinor]

Has anyone read "Cries Unheard" about Mary Bell, child murderer. By Gita Sereny.
Mary Bell is free now, a mother and grand mother. It is interesting reading when immersed in a case like this.

I wish Mary Bell would join WS and give her insights into AB!!!

 

[tlcya]

The poem, IMO, sounded like something very typical of any teenage girl, nothing creepy, could've been about a boyfriend that dumped her, her Mom, a friend that 'betrayed' her (I use quotes as teenage girls see a lot more things as betrayals than adults) anything

I thought exactly the same thing when I read the poem yesterday. Having been a teenage girl with a flair for the angsty and dramatic, it could have been something (and indeed is very similar to) some of the woe is me poetry I wrote about breakups at that age.

Teenage girls can be very very emotionally driven. Every slight can be perceived as the ultimate betrayal.

Well spoken Hellinor

 

[droptoplesabre]

Where was God for Elizabeth?? Her "cries" went unheard

IMHO the system NEEDS to make an example of Allyssa for her horrific
crime

I find it just sick that these twisted kids are "idolizing" her on you tube

I hope some of you will join me in "reporting" the sick "tribute" video to you tube...let's get this trash removed

I strongly feel that there will be copycats out there....just as their were with
Columbine. It is too bad that the ugly photos of her and the creepy stuff is all out there on the internet for disturbed 13 year olds to make into a "tribute" to a confessed murderer

for those sympathetic to this horrible person, would YOU want to take her into your home?? Want her around YOUR family? Thanks but no thanks


I think she is so cold and henious....let her "feel" prison for the rest of her life. She is dangerous. She has proven herself to be a danger to society. And in this case it is not like "innocent till proven guilty"...she has confessed.

Let's get this sick "tribute" taken down. I hope cuppycake and all these other kids get help. I hope the "brothers" get help...and her classmates. I would also hope that attempts to "support" Allyssa are very closely monitored.

I hope we don't see copycats but in todays "viral" world I fear we will. Let's get that sick video off YouTube.

i hate to disagree with anybody,but i have to here..IMHO now,,God don't save your body,he saves your soul,,which is more important? for me,,my soul..other than that,,i totally agree with what ya say.
as for the "tribute thing" that just sux,,i hate to say it,,but it's like jeffrey dommer and all the other more "populated"? "popularized"? whichever,,but they all have "fallowers" and every one after will too..sad,,very sad,,but unfortunately true.and as someone (i forgot who,,but thank them all the same) we should do everything possible to get them off the net.
off the subject...big T-day tomorrow.. :woohoo:
have a great day all.

 

[gliving]

And tomorrow is Thanksgiving and Elizabeth's family will have their first holiday without their precious child. No shopping for Christmas presents for her this year or ever again. raying:

And Alyssa will spend her first holiday in jail. It's all so terribly heartbreaking for all the families affected.

 

[tlcya]

I know we will all be highly aware of that which we have to be thankful for tomorrow and accutely aware of those who will have a much harder time finding something to feel blessed about. My thoughts and prayers will be for the families of the victims so well remembered on this site.

Blessed Be.

 

[wizofoz]

There have been many conversations between my "boomer" friends and myself, all of whom are parents & even grandparents now who have noticed the huge change in today's youth today who have been reared in the computer generation. The techno world out there today puts any kind of information, violence, adult type content out there at the touch of a keyboard or hand held device.

Face to face communication and interactions have been replaced with technology. Someone may live in a rural area in the middle of nowhere, but is connected to the world through cyberspace. The increase in violence,TV, Movies, the pushing of the envelope in any area of entertainment and the arts has muddied the boundaries. How many spend even half the amount of time reading a book as they do in front of a computer or the TV? So there is access to any kind of information, a thrill a minute, but it takes more and more hype to hold ones attention, because we a numbed by all the sensory overload.
Just my observations.

As this website demonstrates nicely.

 

[W8nC]

"If Bustamante is convicted of first-degree murder, that does not mean she will not end up with youth services."

"Missouri is one of 22 states with a 'dual jurisdiction' system. That means a judge could decide to keep her in the juvenile system until she turns 21. At that point, another hearing would decide if Bustamante would be released or sent to adult prison" (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...amante_confounds_missouri_justice_system.html).

Are you sure she was in 2 years of serious therapy & was it competent & how can we foresee the future & know that added years of competent therapy won’t help; what if it would/does help but we never know because she never gets that chance?

I have seen plenty of 15 month old babies hit, bite, scratch & throw things & temper tantrums. Again – they may know this is wrong but everything they know requires thought & the system on which they think is underdeveloped, actions resulting from thoughts configured on a underdeveloped childish mind should not be judged as if they were adult, IMO.

I rest my case.

Peace be with you

It's my understanding, and I for sure could be wrong, that she had to be certified to stand trial as an adult in order to access the dual jurisdiction system. In other words, if she had NOT been cert. as an adult, she would be dealt with by the juvenile system ONLY, and that system would be required to let her go at age 21. Under the dual system, she can be held in juvenile facilities for a few years, and then transferred to an adult facility. She can receive psychiatric treatment from mental health care providers who specialize in juvenile psychology now, and adult mental health later. So, on paper at least, best of both worlds.

 

[droptoplesabre]

And tomorrow is Thanksgiving and Elizabeth's family will have their first holiday without their precious child. No shopping for Christmas presents for her this year or ever again. raying:

And Alyssa will spend her first holiday in jail. It's all so terribly heartbreaking for all the families affected.

i feel i need to apoligize..ever since this crime happened,,its been eating at me..eating my guts from the inside..i guess for a short minute,i forgot everything but my glutonuss stumoch..thanksgiving is my favorite holliday,and it just got the better of me,and i am truly sorry i forgot elizabeth and her family..i wish them the best,and the best thanksgiving they can possibly have in such a time as this. God bless every one of them,as well as Alyssa's family, and all of you here too.

 

[LogicalMinds]

i hate to disagree with anybody,but i have to here..IMHO now,,God don't save your body,he saves your soul,,which is more important? for me,,my soul..other than that,,i totally agree with what ya say.
as for the "tribute thing" that just sux,,i hate to say it,,but it's like jeffrey dommer and all the other more "populated"? "popularized"? whichever,,but they all have "fallowers" and every one after will too..sad,,very sad,,but unfortunately true.and as someone (i forgot who,,but thank them all the same) we should do everything possible to get them off the net.
off the subject...big T-day tomorrow.. :woohoo:
have a great day all.

Hi..I hope many will help me get that disgusting video down

My reference to God was in response to another post.

I personally would prefer to NOT bring religion into these threads and I only do so in response.

No one should glorify this horrible girl. My sympathies are to the family of Elizabeth and to Elizabeth herself. What a sweet little girl...she should be home, getting ready for turkey...getting ready for Christmas...playing with her pets and friends

 

[tlcya]

i feel i need to apoligize..ever since this crime happened,,its been eating at me..eating my guts from the inside..i guess for a short minute,i forgot everything but my glutonuss stumoch..thanksgiving is my favorite holliday,and it just got the better of me,and i am truly sorry i forgot elizabeth and her family..i wish them the best,and the best thanksgiving they can possibly have in such a time as this. God bless every one of them,as well as Alyssa's family, and all of you here too.

Silly sleuther, if we spent every minute of every day immersed in this and other tragedies we would not be good sleuths nor would we be much good to our friends and families. No appology needed.

If we sometimes discuss happy or joyful things on this site it is not taken as frivolous or heartless. Sometimes we all need a day brightener and its OKAY to be looking forward to tomorrow.

goofball

 

[gliving]

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/crimesider/entry5761341.shtml

Very interesting article giving some background to Alyssa's family.

"AB's grandmother, KB, became the girl's legal guardian when she was 7-years-old, according to court records obtained by the Jefferson City News Tribune."

"Meanwhile, AB's mother, MB, struggled to pay rent and racked up three misdemeanor criminal convictions, including one for drunken driving and another for marijuana possession, according to court records obtained by the paper."

"Her father, 34-year-old CB, whose identity was confirmed by the Cole County Sheriff's Dept., is serving three concurrent prison terms for three counts of felony assault in Missouri Eastern Correctional Facility,

"JM, a friend of AB's since middle school, told Crimesider in an exclusive Nov. 20 phone interview, that A's father had been arrested for "stabbing
someone." :waitasec:

Above snipped and names removed. Lots more at above link.

 

[W8nC]

"If Bustamante is convicted of first-degree murder, that does not mean she will not end up with youth services."

"Missouri is one of 22 states with a 'dual jurisdiction' system. That means a judge could decide to keep her in the juvenile system until she turns 21. At that point, another hearing would decide if Bustamante would be released or sent to adult prison" (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...amante_confounds_missouri_justice_system.html).

Are you sure she was in 2 years of serious therapy & was it competent & how can we foresee the future & know that added years of competent therapy won’t help; what if it would/does help but we never know because she never gets that chance?

I have seen plenty of 15 month old babies hit, bite, scratch & throw things & temper tantrums. Again – they may know this is wrong but everything they know requires thought & the system on which they think is underdeveloped, actions resulting from thoughts configured on a underdeveloped childish mind should not be judged as if they were adult, IMO.

I rest my case.

Peace be with you

It's my understanding, and I for sure could be wrong, that she had to be certified to stand trial as an adult in order to access the dual jurisdiction system. In other words, if she had NOT been cert. as an adult, she would be dealt with by the juvenile system ONLY, and that system would be required to let her go at age 21. Under the dual system, she can be held in juvenile facilities for a few years, and then transferred to an adult facility. She can receive psychiatric treatment from mental health care providers who specialize in juvenile psychology now, and adult mental health later. So, on paper at least, best of both worlds.

At her adult certification hearing, there was testimony that she was participating in "almost daily" therapy since her suicide attemt in 2007. The 6-8 inch stack of paperwork that was her file from that therapy supported that testimony. Was that therapy competent? I don't know. How can we determine if the last 2 years of therapy or the next 5 years of therapy are competent or efficacious? Do we want to gamble on those results? Heads, she's cured and leads a happy, productive life; Tails, she kills another child?

I'm all for continuing her treatment. If she actually gets better, at some point, I may even be convinced that parole is an option. I just don't believe she can go from cold blooded child murderer to model citizen in 5 short years. Nor do I personally believe that 5 short years is enough punishment for this crime, regardless of the developmental state of her mind/thinking. What is enough? 10 yrs? 20 yrs? LWOP? IMO, at least 15 years, maybe more...depends on her mental and emotional development in those years.

Okay, you got me on the 15 month old thing, lol. My point was, we TEACH them not to hurt others, but you're right that they don't actually control that behavior.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Oooooopsie, looks like the first paragraph of this was posted twice. SORRY!!! My bad.

 

[LadyBug99]

I wish Mary Bell would join WS and give her insights into AB!!!

The only reason I am not jumping on the LWOP bandwagon is because of this case. MB and her friend NB killed two little boys at a young age. MB also had a terrible childhood. She served 12 years and was released to go on with her life. She became a mother and has not killed again.

I do believe that AB deserves to spend numerous years behind bars. I'm also not convinced that IF she was ever released that she would go out and kill again. JMO

 

[gliving]

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/nov/24/missouri-model-tested/

A good article on Missouri's dual jurisdiction.

 

[mominjc]

Does anyone know for sure whether AB has actually been sent to Fulton or not? I keep reading in news articles that she was sent Friday. I thought the judge had not signed the order yet.

 

[vjlaw]

Does anyone know for sure whether AB has actually been sent to Fulton or not? I keep reading in news articles that she was sent Friday. I thought the judge had not signed the order yet.

I don't think we know for sure. Reading the docket entries, it says "showing 13 or 14 entries". My guess is that since it is hospitalization it is protected under the medical privacy laws.

 

[gliving]

http://marinadedave.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/alyssa-bustamante-sent-to-mental-hospital/

Dave has written a couple of blogs on Alyssa. I think he's pretty credible. His latest blog says she being held in general population at Morgan County Jail.

"According to a very reliable source, she is in with the general population and is allowed contact with other inmates, despite media reports to the contrary. She is not in lockdown or under suicide watch."

 

[hellinor]

http://marinadedave.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/alyssa-bustamante-sent-to-mental-hospital/

Dave has written a couple of blogs on Alyssa. I think he's pretty credible. His latest blog says she being held in general population at Morgan County Jail.

"According to a very reliable source, she is in with the general population and is allowed contact with other inmates, despite media reports to the contrary. She is not in lockdown or under suicide watch."

Did anyone notice who his source is? The name sounds quite familiar....

 

[hellinor]

I have been reading comments over @ Marinade Dave's blog, and for all of you discussing cutters lately, I dont know anything about it, but this story touched my heart:
Comment by Shiloh November 24, 2009 at 1:12 pm
http://marinadedave.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/alyssa-bustamante-sent-to-mental-hospital/