MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #10

[W8nC]

I finally got a chance to check out the emoCuppyCake video tribute, and her I love AB rant. IMO, she doesn't know AB, never met her, never even heard of her until this hit the news. She doesn't have a single picture, video, or piece of info that's not from a news story. It's very strange, and sad, that she idolizes AB like some kind of media star.

 

[human]

I hope she soon fells what it's like-no pool, no horses, no fun clothes, no shopping at the mall, hopefully no Facebook, no Myspace. It's prison.

 

[danni]

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

Excellent post Danni

who would want Alyssa under their roof..in their neighborhood..ever??

I agree... I don't much care about her, her mental state...her meds...if she wants to scratch her arms up so be it...or put her in a straightjacket

I think she is disgusting...maybe there is such a thing as a "bad seed" or "resident evil" or whatever...I don't know

I find it even more frightning that some little twerps on the net are making "tributes" to her

what an insult to little Elizabeth, her memory, her family

The messed up thing is this girl on youtube is not the only one. There are kids in JC that "look up" to her for what she did.
I see so many people saying that so and so should get the needle for what they did. Look at the Shaniya Davis case is anyone saying oh MAM's mother must have treated him horrible as a child? NO he CHOSE to do what he did and people think he should get the DP for it. What is the different between that case and this case? He is 29 (I think) and Alyssa is 15. Both of them CHOSE to kill another human being! no one is blaming MAM's actions on his "early developmental years", no one is blaming a "failed system" for what he did. they are blaming HIM! why can't we blame ALYSSA for what SHE DID?

 

[ynotdivein]

Hey again folks, have been away a few days and just got caught up. Thanks to all again for your engaged and impassioned and thought-provoking comments, and welcome to all who are new to posting.

This is a throwback response to the earlier posts about the 20-photo gallery. Her left wrist is shocking. It indicates to me that she was indeed calling very loud for attention or help. First, those are in a VERY visible place on her body, and she did not seem to try to cover them with long sleeves. Wearing bracelets is almost a way to play peekaboo with friends and family--"you can see them, sort of... do you care enough to ask me if I'm ok? Do you care enough to notice?" I would bet she cut in other less-visible places (upper arm, inner thigh, etc.) but these are soooo fracking public. Second, that is long-term cutting AND it appears she cut over old scars, which takes a certain... commitment I guess is the word. A clue to the depth of her sickness, too.

Yet I still can't believe that her sickness should excuse her monstrous behavior, nor that her past should make us think she can someday walk out of some facility and re-enter "normal" society. She chose, and planned, and executed her plan. She ended an innocent life and she knew what she was going to do and she knew it was wrong. I don't believe she can be "rehabilitated"--MOO. And she must face the consequences of her acts. LWOP.

 

[ynotdivein]

OK, this is OT and mods I will remove if it's too far in left field. But I've been thinking about AB, plus the case here in CA where a 15-year-old girl is being tried as an adult for murdering her mom (with her boyfriend's help), plus just the general trend of more under-18s committing heinous crimes... it's all making me think we are living through a paradigm shift in how we view young criminals. Bear with me (or skip ahead!):

A couple hundred years ago in "Western" society, humans as young as 5 or 7 were viewed as adults. Able to work, able to commit awful crimes, able to be put to death, just generally not seen as a different class of citizen. People that age knew about sex and death and money and booze and all the things we have come to see as "adult" subjects now. The development of education particularly changed this--knowledge was meted out in age-appropriate doses and society developed a thing called a "child" and tried to keep them "innocent" of such knowledge until whatever was deemed an appropriate age. We now live in an age of instant communication and knowledge at your fingertips, but are still dealing with that concept of the child as pristine and innocent and not to be sullied and incapable of doing real harm. We have a system of graduating children into adulthood in stages: at age 7, at age 13, at age 16, at 18, at 21... but maybe the reality is that what we have decided is childhood (marked by innocence, naivete, inability to comprehend right from wrong) is just ending earlier now than it was even twenty-five years ago? And maybe our laws need to adjust to reflect that fact? In many many ways, a 15 year old today is more adult than a 15 year old in 1980, or 1960, etc. And maybe more like a 15-year-old in the 1700's.

Bring on the neurologists! And thanks for indulging this flight of intellectual fancy, if you read this far.

 

[danni]

OK, this is OT and mods I will remove if it's too far in left field. But I've been thinking about AB, plus the case here in CA where a 15-year-old girl is being tried as an adult for murdering her mom (with her boyfriend's help), plus just the general trend of more under-18s committing heinous crimes... it's all making me think we are living through a paradigm shift in how we view young criminals. Bear with me (or skip ahead!):

A couple hundred years ago in "Western" society, humans as young as 5 or 7 were viewed as adults. Able to work, able to commit awful crimes, able to be put to death, just generally not seen as a different class of citizen. People that age knew about sex and death and money and booze and all the things we have come to see as "adult" subjects now. The development of education particularly changed this--knowledge was meted out in age-appropriate doses and society developed a thing called a "child" and tried to keep them "innocent" of such knowledge until whatever was deemed an appropriate age. We now live in an age of instant communication and knowledge at your fingertips, but are still dealing with that concept of the child as pristine and innocent and not to be sullied and incapable of doing real harm. We have a system of graduating children into adulthood in stages: at age 7, at age 13, at age 16, at 18, at 21... but maybe the reality is that what we have decided is childhood (marked by innocence, naivete, inability to comprehend right from wrong) is just ending earlier now than it was even twenty-five years ago? And maybe our laws need to adjust to reflect that fact? In many many ways, a 15 year old today is more adult than a 15 year old in 1980, or 1960, etc. And maybe more like a 15-year-old in the 1700's.

Bring on the neurologists! And thanks for indulging this flight of intellectual fancy, if you read this far.

VERY well said. I wish I could articulate myself that well without getting angry!
I think 15 year olds today are even more "adult like" than when I was 15, 11 years ago.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Oh another "fan" ....on youtube....and 2 people gave her a thumbs up?? eeek

Kazzy4life (7 hours ago) Show Hide
+2
Marked as spam
Reply | Spam
I know Alyssa she was the coolest person ever and so r u person who made this vid

~~~~~~~~~

There are other rotten kids out there...in south florida some buddies set a buddy on fire...the poor kid is burned horribly..may not live, and what pain...unreal....they doused him in alcohol and set him on fire..such young kids

I hope they are tried as adults and put away

Everyone talks stuff about adult killers/suspects...but really some of them have a more "reasonable" reason to do the things they do (ie, jealous, a fit of rage)

some of these kids seem to just do horrible things to do them. Also in South Florida we had those teens who killed a homeless man (sleeping) with bats and beat others

horrible...IMHO not salvagable..I don't feel for them, care for them or want to ever see them out in society, young or not

 

[mia g]

These others teens idolizing Alyssa NEED her put in prison so THEY can see this is not a game. Just another form of proof that she needs LWOP, to show others what WILL happen! mho

 

[human]

I have read the studies on the adolescent brain and how they think differently. Then I heard a guy on Public Radio say how that was not true at all. The study was funded by some company that maybe does Ritalin or something. I forget because I only remember the gist of something, not the details. So, I don't know what's true or not.

Kids today are older and younger at the same time. When I was a kid, no self respecting kid would trick or treat past age 11. Now they do it in high school.

They know too much and are exposed to too much. 2 1/2 Men is on at 6:30 where I live. Totally not a kids show. I don't have cable so who knows what's on that. NOt me.

I think kids in other industrialized countries are not as immature as the ones in the US. We've really gone into the helicoptering parent and applauding every little thing.

Parents are crazy at their kids sports events. Everything is so skewed that I don't know if anyone can make a reasonable judgment of what's what.

But I think everyone, except someone like Idi Amin, knows that murder of a young child is wrong.

 

[Solstice Canyon]

Human, these are excellent points, and I agree with your assessment re: the older-yet-still-younger thing.

I remember the mother of one of my friends scolding her once, saying how she (the mom) had to pick out her own mother's casket when she was just 18. She stated that neither my friend, nor any of her older/younger siblings would be capable of that all the way up into their 20's.

Another friend of mine has what she calls an "overgrown teenager" of a sister who is well into her 30's by now and has never moved from home. She occasionally works, then quits or gets fired from a job, and their parents let her hang out in the basement, rent-free.

At the same time, we have neighbors who began letting their 9/10-year old wear provocative clothing (complete with thong underwear and padded, push-up type bras) and makeup at that early age because they saw nothing wrong with it.

I looked at some of the Halloween costumes advertised this year, and was amazed how "sexualized" even the outfits for very young girls have become. Who is designing these?

Parents can do everything in their power to screen TV programs, etc., but it seems there's no getting away from the negative exposure completely. If they don't see it at home, their friends will likely have access to it, as can also be the case with internet, etc.

If you're willing to build a coccoon, then maybe...but be ready to home-school too, then, because even with no cell phone they'll find kids at school who let them borrow one, and/or may find time to create and maintain MS or FB-type accounts when no one's looking or they're given "free time" in computer lab!

O/T, but I agree about 2.5 Men! It's a shame, as the characters and general storyline always seem decent enough to not "need" to go there, but oh well! I'm obviously not in their targeted demographic, is my guess!

I was watching a "nerd" show earlier tonight, and was disappointed to see that it's also going this route.

They used to stick in stuff "for the adults" that kids who should be too young for certain information would miss (like 3's Company, maybe), but anymore, it's much more direct.

 

[Peace Lover]

Finally back home with a few minutes to elaborate on my post concerning juvenile trial vs. adult trial.

Just want to quickly respond to the theory that because AB is 15, has free will, and is responsible for her decision & actions she should be tried as an adult.

I’ll reiterate:

Her free will which is facilitated by her decisions is thought out on a system and mind that is underdeveloped and childish. Her actions are based on her decisions & thinking, her 15 year old thinking and actions in my opinion should be tried in a 15 year old juvenile court, not a court that punishes people based on actions contrived by a mature adult mind.

No matter how we feel the matter will be addressed in a court of law by people who have the authority to make those decisions & I suspect God will be involved too.

Peace be with you

 

[Peace Lover]

Peace Lover, I agree with a whole lot of what you say, especially about the sadness every one of us feels when we think of the loss of Elizabeth, the pain we feel at imagining her last moments, and the sincere hope that AB's treatment is fair and just. I also agree that she needs a lot of help, mentally and emotionally. Even if she spends the rest of her life in prison, she deserves all the help we can manage to give her to try to live that life in as positive and productive a way as possible.

However, I feel she should be dealt with in the adult system, and not the juvenile system, primarily because, in the juvenile system, they are required to turn her loose at age 21, REGARDLESS of whether she is rehabilitated or NOT. She'll be 16 in January. We know she's been in serious therapy for 2 years already. Will another 5 years therapy make her safe?

The very first social lesson we teach a child is not to hurt others. Don't hit. Don't bite. Don't scratch. Don't throw things at others. The first thing. A 15 month old knows this. A 15 year old certainly knows this.

"If Bustamante is convicted of first-degree murder, that does not mean she will not end up with youth services."

"Missouri is one of 22 states with a 'dual jurisdiction' system. That means a judge could decide to keep her in the juvenile system until she turns 21. At that point, another hearing would decide if Bustamante would be released or sent to adult prison" (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...amante_confounds_missouri_justice_system.html).

Are you sure she was in 2 years of serious therapy & was it competent & how can we foresee the future & know that added years of competent therapy won’t help; what if it would/does help but we never know because she never gets that chance?

I have seen plenty of 15 month old babies hit, bite, scratch & throw things & temper tantrums. Again – they may know this is wrong but everything they know requires thought & the system on which they think is underdeveloped, actions resulting from thoughts configured on a underdeveloped childish mind should not be judged as if they were adult, IMO.

I rest my case.

Peace be with you

 

[badhorsie]

Has anyone read "Cries Unheard" about Mary Bell, child murderer. By Gita Sereny.
Mary Bell is free now, a mother and grand mother. It is interesting reading when immersed in a case like this.

I will send it to the first person who pm's me.

What Alyssa did was indefensible, I make no excuses for her but it does still bother me that she is 15.
Locking her up for life ? I just don't know.
Maybe her cries did go unheard?

 

[2goldfish]

Has anyone read "Cries Unheard" about Mary Bell, child murderer. By Gita Sereny.
Mary Bell is free now, a mother and grand mother. It is interesting reading when immersed in a case like this.

I will send it to the first person who pm's me.

What Alyssa did was indefensible, I make no excuses for her but it does still bother me that she is 15.
Locking her up for life ? I just don't know.
Maybe her cries did go unheard?

I have it also and it was the first thing I thought of when I started reading these threads. "severely disturbed children".

especially as AB was repeatedly telling people she wanted to kill someone!

granted mb was quite a bit younger but knowing how she thought as an adult adds some insight here I believe.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Where was God for Elizabeth?? Her "cries" went unheard

IMHO the system NEEDS to make an example of Allyssa for her horrific
crime

I find it just sick that these twisted kids are "idolizing" her on you tube

I hope some of you will join me in "reporting" the sick "tribute" video to you tube...let's get this trash removed

I strongly feel that there will be copycats out there....just as their were with
Columbine. It is too bad that the ugly photos of her and the creepy stuff is all out there on the internet for disturbed 13 year olds to make into a "tribute" to a confessed murderer

for those sympathetic to this horrible person, would YOU want to take her into your home?? Want her around YOUR family? Thanks but no thanks


I think she is so cold and henious....let her "feel" prison for the rest of her life. She is dangerous. She has proven herself to be a danger to society. And in this case it is not like "innocent till proven guilty"...she has confessed.

Let's get this sick "tribute" taken down. I hope cuppycake and all these other kids get help. I hope the "brothers" get help...and her classmates. I would also hope that attempts to "support" Allyssa are very closely monitored.

I hope we don't see copycats but in todays "viral" world I fear we will. Let's get that sick video off YouTube.

 

[hellinor]

JMO>>> I have zero desire to read any poems from Alyssa...

The poem, IMO, sounded like something very typical of any teenage girl, nothing creepy, could've been about a boyfriend that dumped her, her Mom, a friend that 'betrayed' her (I use quotes as teenage girls see a lot more things as betrayals than adults) anything

 

[celticthyme]

There have been many conversations between my "boomer" friends and myself, all of whom are parents & even grandparents now who have noticed the huge change in today's youth today who have been reared in the computer generation. The techno world out there today puts any kind of information, violence, adult type content out there at the touch of a keyboard or hand held device.

Face to face communication and interactions have been replaced with technology. Someone may live in a rural area in the middle of nowhere, but is connected to the world through cyberspace. The increase in violence,TV, Movies, the pushing of the envelope in any area of entertainment and the arts has muddied the boundaries. How many spend even half the amount of time reading a book as they do in front of a computer or the TV? So there is access to any kind of information, a thrill a minute, but it takes more and more hype to hold ones attention, because we a numbed by all the sensory overload.
Just my observations.

 

[MDATCA]

I just do not understand why parents are not monitoring internet usage. I know that it can be difficult with comp labs in school, libraries, friends houses and cell phone internet but you can at least put something (net nannyspyware or keyloggers) on your home computeres to catch what they access from home. The trick is not to let the kid know about it unless it gets serious. Even as far as the cell phone goes you can get spyware and GPS for them. I have a locator on my son's(17) phone and as long as I pay it will be on there. Even my 19 and 22 year old daughters have the internet monitoed on them. They know that we pay for it and they are our computrers. Don't like it get our own.

I can't believe how ignorant people are about the internet. When will they learn?

 

[raisincharlie]

Has anyone read "Cries Unheard" about Mary Bell, child murderer. By Gita Sereny.
Mary Bell is free now, a mother and grand mother. It is interesting reading when immersed in a case like this.

I will send it to the first person who pm's me.

What Alyssa did was indefensible, I make no excuses for her but it does still bother me that she is 15.
Locking her up for life ? I just don't know.
Maybe her cries did go unheard?

After two years of therapy, still no one heard her cries for help ? She went from cutting herselft to attempted suicide and after 2 years of therapy, murder. Perhaps they were cries for attention rather than help. Perhaps she is psychopathic and all that therapy did nothing but help facilitate and hone her manupulative skills, it happens with personality disorders. Both sociapathy and psychopathy are uncurable and persons with these disorders are known to learn to better manipulate based on therapy - does nothing for them but make them worse. Seems the therapy made things worse in this case.

 

[hellinor]

Parents can do everything in their power to screen TV programs, etc., but it seems there's no getting away from the negative exposure completely. If they don't see it at home, their friends will likely have access to it, as can also be the case with internet, etc.

If you're willing to build a coccoon, then maybe...but be ready to home-school too, then, because even with no cell phone they'll find kids at school who let them borrow one, and/or may find time to create and maintain MS or FB-type accounts when no one's looking or they're given "free time" in computer lab!

I personally feel there are 3 influences in shaping a child's personality 1) parents 2) media 3) peers and unfortunately, parents can only fully control the first. I feel my parents are amazing, never talked down to me and set a perfect example, but I grew up faced with today's media, causing eating disorders, and in an industrial area shall I say, and am now a pothead. I know they did their best, no one ever had more supportive and encouraging parents, but alas....

O/T, but I agree about 2.5 Men! It's a shame, as the characters and general storyline always seem decent enough to not "need" to go there, but oh well! I'm obviously not in their targeted demographic, is my guess!

I was watching a "nerd" show earlier tonight, and was disappointed to see that it's also going this route.

They used to stick in stuff "for the adults" that kids who should be too young for certain information would miss (like 3's Company, maybe), but anymore, it's much more direct.

SOOO true about all of this! Family guy starts at 5:30 and you can watch it straight through til 8 here, I hate 2 1/2 men so I dont know about that, but it's definitely on at 730 because I often have to change the channel then. Family guy is SOOO wrong for children, dont even get me started. There are 2 separate episodes encouraging bulimia, and the line that blew my mind completely was when some characters joined the army and are going to the Middle East, Peter Griffin says "And all the brown people you can rape" Is this s%*t helping those like Alyssa? Obviously not.... adding in "stuff for the adults" like Sesame street and Muppets Tonight? That is over! I am 29 and feel like TV censorship has progressed to always be age appropriate for me.
Thank you for allowing me to rant