MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #12

[Jodibug]

and another rumor.......someone said that she said she dug a grave, but didn't like it, so she dug the 2nd one. From this, I infer that she did not have plans for 2 murders, or two deaths. I'm sorry, I can't find anything to back this up, but I think I recall hearing it said on television....could have been a local news show, or NG, sorry I don't know. Anyway, it's a rumor since I can't back it up.

I do believe that is what she told the police was her reason was for digging two graves.

But I don't believe it.... I think she was planning to put someone else next to Elizabeth later on.

COMPETELY MY OPINION ONLY>>>>>> I think she was planning to put her little sister there.

Remember, we heard in court (FACT) that grandma was present during the interview when Alyssa confessed.... I think Alyssa just couldn't say (in front of grandma) that the grave was for the little sister.

Really... not liking the first hole is a pretty lame excuse for digging a second hole.

Since we KNOW that grandma was sitting there, I think she just didn't want grandma to hear her say who was intended for the second grave.

and IMO.... it was her sister. But that is just a guess.

 

[PeriodicalCuriosity]

I do believe that is what she told the police that her reason was for digging two graves.

But I don't believe it.... I think she was planning to put someone else next to Elizabeth later on.

COMPETELY MY OPINION ONLY>>>>>> I think she was planning to put her little sister there.

Remember, we heard in court (FACT) that grandma was present during the interview when Alyssa confessed.... I think Alyssa just couldn't say (in front of grandma) that the grave was for the little sister.

Really... not liking the first hole is a pretty lame excuse for digging a second hole.

Since we KNOW that grandma was sitting there, I think she just didn't want grandma to hear her say who was intended for the second grave.

and IMO.... it was her sister. But that is just a guess.

I think that same thing, Jodibug, not sure why--my opinion too.

 

[Prof]

Yes, IMO the alleged accomplice is a minor and an innocent party to the WS TOS -


I am concerned about this new rumor and all of the parties it involves --
this is just my opinion

 

[danni]

I do believe that is what she told the police was her reason was for digging two graves.

But I don't believe it.... I think she was planning to put someone else next to Elizabeth later on.

COMPETELY MY OPINION ONLY>>>>>> I think she was planning to put her little sister there.

Remember, we heard in court (FACT) that grandma was present during the interview when Alyssa confessed.... I think Alyssa just couldn't say (in front of grandma) that the grave was for the little sister.
Really... not liking the first hole is a pretty lame excuse for digging a second hole.

Since we KNOW that grandma was sitting there, I think she just didn't want grandma to hear her say who was intended for the second grave.
and IMO.... it was her sister. But that is just a guess.

BBM!
I completely agree. If this is true. Would you want your Grandma,one of VERY few people backing you, knowing that you dug a grave with the intention of filling it with your little sisters body?

ETA: from reports that came out about testimony during court on the 18th they know who the second grave is for but they have to wait till trail for that info to get out. So hopefully we will hear about it during court at a later date!

 

[LadyRider]

Does anyone know how Elizabeth's mother and siblings are doing? I know this must have been a very difficult Thanksgiving for them and Christmas even harder.

 

[LadyBug99]

I think that same thing, Jodibug, not sure why--my opinion too.

I have gone back and forth about this (in my head)...I really want to know if the two graves were side by side or in different parts of the woods. I also wonder if the second grave was filled in or left open.

IMO, If the graves were side by side than I would think she planned to kill two people. If the other grave was in a different part of the woods I would think that perhaps she was unable to dig deep enough or found it difficult to dig in this location. Perhaps she then moved to a location that she could dig the hole deep enough to better conceal a body.

If the second grave was next to where Elizabeth was buried, was it also filled in? Would the LE miss this grave as well?

I so wish we could have more details about this case. The lack of information is driving me crazy!

 

[human]

Basically, that's how it works.

The detective will basically do anything to get a confession. So, always remember to request to have an attorney present before you say anything, and I mean anything.

Don't they have to give you the Miranda warning first? Don't you have to be under arrest?

 

[Csquare]

Don't they have to give you the Miranda warning first? Don't you have to be under arrest?

They can question anyone, but the Mirandas do not have to be read unless they are arretling you. IMO

 

[W8nC]

I do believe that is what she told the police was her reason was for digging two graves.

But I don't believe it.... I think she was planning to put someone else next to Elizabeth later on.

COMPETELY MY OPINION ONLY>>>>>> I think she was planning to put her little sister there.

Remember, we heard in court (FACT) that grandma was present during the interview when Alyssa confessed.... I think Alyssa just couldn't say (in front of grandma) that the grave was for the little sister.

Really... not liking the first hole is a pretty lame excuse for digging a second hole.

Since we KNOW that grandma was sitting there, I think she just didn't want grandma to hear her say who was intended for the second grave.

and IMO.... it was her sister. But that is just a guess.

You could very well be right about a planned 2nd victim. It just struck me at the time I heard it, that grave digging isn't something most teen girls have any experience in, and was probably a whole lot harder than she imagined it would be. I could see her laboring over a poorly planned, or poorly located whole in the ground, and realizing this one would never do for her purpose. See, the first time I had to dig a grave for a lost pet, I was totally surprised at how difficult it was. Idk, those were just my first thoughts.

I agree that she most likely wouldn't want to distress grandma any more than she already had, or get herself in deeper doodoo, by admitting that she planned to use the 2nd grave....for ANYONE, but yeah, especially for her little sis.

 

[2shihtzus]

Does MB have the same maiden name as KNP?

No. KNP has a different father from MB - MB's initials with her maiden name are MW. I did end up finding a record of her marriage to CB in Nevada thanks to Prof's link to an earlier post. KB has been married at least 3 times.

 

[danni]

About Miranda rights!

"A Miranda warning is a warning given by police in the United States to criminal suspects in police custody, or in a custodial situation, before they are interrogated. A custodial situation is one in which the suspect's freedom of movement is restrained (judged by the "free to leave" test), even if he is not under arrest."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning

 

[Elley Mae]

You could very well be right about a planned 2nd victim. It just struck me at the time I heard it, that grave digging isn't something most teen girls have any experience in, and was probably a whole lot harder than she imagined it would be. I could see her laboring over a poorly planned, or poorly located whole in the ground, and realizing this one would never do for her purpose. See, the first time I had to dig a grave for a lost pet, I was totally surprised at how difficult it was. Idk, those were just my first thoughts.

I agree that she most likely wouldn't want to distress grandma any more than she already had, or get herself in deeper doodoo, by admitting that she planned to use the 2nd grave....for ANYONE, but yeah, especially for her little sis.

JMO I think that she was happy to be rid of the aunt that iirc had just recently moved out and yes I think she had intentions to get rid of little sister too, then it would just be her and the twin boys.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Don't they have to give you the Miranda warning first? Don't you have to be under arrest?

The police can have you come in for questioning without reading you your MR, however, you can stand up and leave anytime you want, if they prevent you from leaving they must then state you are under arrest OR in police custody (slight difference) and then read you your MR.

Best advice never talk to police for any reason without a lawyer present. You may think you are smart but they are smarter, always.

 

[MsWinter]

Well, its more of a thumbnail sketch, but there are many defenses.

There was a comment somewhere that the BF "drugged" AB. Well, involuntary intoxication is a defense and can wipe away intent in certain instances. Notice I said "involuntary". Voluntarily doing drugs or getting drunk does not give you a free pass to commit crimes (see: drunk driving).

There was a girl posting on Nancy Grace's FB claiming to have been friends with Alyssa (and was friends with her on FB) who said she believed that he had something to do with it, and she heard he drugged her that night.

I can't find the post on FB anymore (might be deleted?), but I may have a copy of it at home.

 

[gliving]

There was a girl posting on Nancy Grace's FB claiming to have been friends with Alyssa (and was friends with her on FB) who said she believed that he had something to do with it, and she heard he drugged her that night.

I can't find the post on FB anymore (might be deleted?), but I may have a copy of it at home.

Didn't we hear something about Ab and a three day drug spree? I suppose the boyfriend might be implicated if he supplied the drugs.

IMO he was not there the evening Elizabeth died.

Lawyers: would a drug spree change the charges? Say she's having a drug-induced psychosis?

 

[PAXIMUS]

Is the rumor that the BF has been picked up on drugs charges and is currently being held true? Alot of times if LE wants you on one thing but doesnt have the evidence they will hold you on a lesser charge until they find it and if this rumor is true it may suggest something.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Didn't we hear something about Ab and a three day drug spree? I suppose the boyfriend might be implicated if he supplied the drugs.

IMO he was not there the evening Elizabeth died.

Lawyers: would a drug spree change the charges? Say she's having a drug-induced psychosis?

I assume you mean a drug binge. Depending on if it was voluntary or involuntary in re: changing the charges.

Keep in mind that VOLUNTARY INTOXICATION came sometimes also be used as a defense but it is rare.

As Wiki notes:

When it comes to intoxication defenses in criminal law, even "voluntary intoxication" (the knowing and voluntary consumption of alcohol or drugs) is a defense to a "specific intent" crime, whereas only "involuntary intoxication" ("My drink was spiked!") is a defense to a general intent crime.

As for punishment, intoxication may be a mitigating factor that decreases a prison or jail sentence.

The problem with these sort of discussions is that it all depends on what state you are in, I am not a member of the bar in MO so I do not know what their statutes say in regard to this. All states are different as to what kind of defenses they will allow, but generally they are also pretty similar in many ways.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Don't they have to give you the Miranda warning first? Don't you have to be under arrest?

Sure, they'll give you the Miranda rights. "Everything you say can and will be held against you."

So don't say anything, unless you've got an attorney.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Amazing how people are ready to blame this unknown 16 or 17 year old boy for a number of things....yet shy away from the fact that LE is apparently very confident in the charges they have leveled at Allyssa

It seems that Allyssa told various people, including that friend of hers who was on tv, that she wanted to "kill someone"

I also think that some of her "friends' may be defending her....it is not unreasonable to think that her friends might be into the sort of "dark" things that she was into, or at least playing at it

did her "bf" text or threaten people at the school?? He might have...I hope the school is on top of it

I have said before that it is NOT unreasonable to think that some troubled kids are "idolizing" Allysa....(yuck)....there were twisted kids who did the same with Columbine

~~~~~~

I do wonder...has anyone examined the fact that the grandmother is Mormon (Church of Later Day Saints) and that the "bible classes" and stuff that Alyssa went to was at their church?? Apparently the church is also "supporting" the grandparents in this horrible time

I just find that odd....I wonder if her little (super conservative looking) friend was also LDS??? What a contrast....wow

You are talking kids for whom being a "rebel" might mean taking a sip of caffine...??

Amazing that Allyssa not only got good grades but was able to "fool" or blend in with the Mormons??

 

[AndresEscobar]

I assume you mean a drug binge. Depending on if it was voluntary or involuntary in re: changing the charges.

Keep in mind that VOLUNTARY INTOXICATION came sometimes also be used as a defense but it is rare.
When it comes to intoxication defenses in criminal law, even "voluntary intoxication" (the knowing and voluntary consumption of alcohol or drugs) is a defense to a "specific intent" crime, whereas only "involuntary intoxication" ("My drink was spiked!") is a defense to a general intent crime.

As for punishment, intoxication may be a mitigating factor that decreases a prison or jail sentence.

The problem with these sort of discussions is that it all depends on what state you are in, I am not a member of the bar in MO so I do not know what their statutes say in regard to this. All states are different as to what kind of defenses they will allow, but generally they are also pretty similar in many ways.

Yeah, this is a really tricky discussion and I don't really want to open this can of worms here.

Discussion of intent is pretty difficult and how defenses work as mitigating factors is even harder. The general point, though : if she was involuntarily drugged, this could be an mitigating factor and we'd have an entirely different case.