MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[scapa]

dr dona, So interesting. I'd like to read more of your opinion. "In freudian terms they have no superego" More about this please. And how you think it might apply to AB. Much thanks!!

The superego is installed in the wake of the Oedipal/Elektra trauma and serves to regulate and repress the subject's desires -- another way of putting it in Freudian terms is that the pleasure principle is replaced by the reality principle and the subject is consequently on her/his way to being a moral citizen.

If AB lacks a superego then she lacks the mechanism to control her desires and impulses and will tend to a) act on them and b) feel little shame or remorse for those actions. She may well "know" (by rote) that the action is wrong but will have no inhibition about undertaking it anyway. Freud viewed this as a pathology but thought it could be treated, at least in his early work.

I suspect that whatever treatment AB received was both less than intensive and, arguably, aimed at a child believed to be suffering from depression and not from conduct disorder. She seems very similar in psych profile to Jasmine Richardson, who arranged and aided in the murder of her parents and 8 year-old brother in Canada in 2005 (I think). She will be out in a few years despite, according to recent reports, having not fully responded to the treatment she has received while incarcerated.

I don't think, for the record, that AB should be ushered back onto the street and left to offend again. But I don't think that she is necessarily evil, monstrous, incorrigible or destined to murder again. She is fifteen and is not, neurologically speaking, an adult. That is scientific fact, not opinion (this is one of my professional areas of speciality).

Actually, although I share the sorrow and anger of most if not all in this thread about this crime and alleged criminal, I'm a bit bothered by the very idea of "trying as an adult." There are, as I've suggested, good reasons to think that young teenagers do not have adult competencies when it comes to things like impulse control, empathy, long-range planning, etc. Why should the scope of the crime itself determine how the criminal is tried? If we feel that child -relevant sentencing requires review, then we ought to rethink it, rather than fudge things by trying children as adults, when they aren't.

s

 

[mia g]

I googled Alyssa and therapy, and this is what I found..
http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=380391
Quote from "friend"
Bustamante also wrestled with depression, trying to kill herself in September 2007. She spent 10 days at the Mid-Missouri Mental Health hospital and has had treatment ever since.
"Well she was obviously on the anti-depressants," her friend said. "We always would go upstairs and she'd be like, 'Oh I need to take my medicine.'" (so seemingly she TOOK her meds)

M**** told Crimesider that two years ago, Bustamante took "a bunch of Tylenol and something else, some sort of pain killer" at her grandparent's home, where she lived.

"She passed out and her grandma found her and called an ambulance," M***** said. "She had to have her stomach pumped."

"Then she went to the hospital for a while and they sent her to a psych ward for a while," M**** said. "I know she was away from school for like two or three months."

[B]J******* M**** told Crimesider that Bustamante was getting counseling as recently as last month.[/B]

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/11/20/news_local/doc5a42local03bustamanteprofile09.prt

"She showed little emotion or reaction during either hearing - even though much of the morning's evidence focused on her suicide attempt around Labor Day 2007, followed by a 10-day stay at the Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center in Columbia,and her ongoing treatment for depression and her various attempts to hurt herself by cutting"

David Cook, Cole County's chief juvenile officer, said Bustamante had a “higher IQ”

Cook also described the 15-year-old as “articulate and able to communicate clearly,” but also was “clever in the way she phrased things,” including leading her grandparents to believe she was going to a concert at a Jefferson City church when she really was traveling with a friend to a concert in St. Louis.

Cook said Bustamante's grandparents - who have been her legal guardians since 2001 - provided “structure and emotional support” to Alyssa and her three younger siblings.

He said the teen's thick file of mental health counselor's notes and treatment information “didn't identify that she was a risk to others,” but focused instead on trying “to help her with her coping skills and identifying causes of her depression.”

While never pinpointing a cause of the teen's ongoing depression, Cook said, the notes showed counselors wondered if one root cause wasn't “separation from her mother.”

Witnesses at Bustamante's adult certification hearing described a girl who was bright yet depressed and clever in a sometimes sneaky sort of way. She ranked in roughly the top third of her class at Jefferson City High School, the principal said, and had been in no trouble at school or with the law."

Everything underlined is copied form the link above it!!

 

[LogicalMinds]

Hi Scapa...

the problem with NOT trying her as an adult is that if tried as a juvenile she will pop out at 21, free and clear with NO record...scary thought IMHO

I have posted here about Michael Fernandez who killed Jamie Gough ...at age 14...he did it cause he wanted to kill someone and Jaime was his (smaller) friend and easy to kill
Michael felt

I have posted links to that sad story....I think it is very much like Allysa (btw Michael turned down a 30? year deal and is doing life in Florida)

http://www.justnews.com/news/17932520/detail.html

if you google Michael Hernandez and Jaime Gough you will get a ton of info...this case was big here in South Florida...they moved the trial to Orlando

Michael turned down a deal to get him out in 30 years....and got life without parole

He actually showed more signs of true "mental illness" than Allyssa it seems from what I have read...they feel he is schizophrenic...and he surely was obsessive/compulsive etc
he was not under a doctor's care...he simply decided he wanted to kill

http://cbs4.com/local/jamie.gough.school.2.825131.html

here is a point in the trial where his own parents testified they thought he was insane

http://www.justnews.com/news/17504198/detail.html

I have posted about this and I would be interested in what people think about this case in regards to Allysa....similar aren't they??

Thanks

 

[JLMcKenna83]

JMO, but I think Alyssa's diagnosis of Depression was possibly either way off.. or she was depressed and had other issues that go along with it...

Typically, and I'm sorry for how this sounds.. but depressed people kill themselves.. not other people.

again JMO

 

[eyes4crime]

EYES,, am I correct in in thinking that when it comes to side effects of medications, they pretty much have to place a warninf for EVERY side effect reported while someone takes said med??? That is what I was taught, but honestly did not know if that was true!?!?![/QUOTE

Hi mia g - that's right. A black box warning for life threatening side effects, right on the box. And a list of side effects that were found while the drug was on its way for FDA approval AND all reported side effects to drug companies and physicians.

Since Prozac is used to treat so many conditions, and in so many combinations, there are many side effects and adverse reactions listed. Drug-drug interactions can be even more serious than side effects. I picked the SE that seemed to be pertinent to Alyssa.

 

[mia g]

JMO, but I think Alyssa's diagnosis of Depression was possibly either way off.. or she was depressed and had other issues that go along with it...

Typically, and I'm sorry for how this sounds.. but depressed people kill themselves.. not other people.

again JMO

I so agree, and would like to also add, I seriously doubt AB walked into therapy and said "Hey I wanna kill someone" So how would therapist know it was possible?

 

[vjlaw]

JMO, but I think Alyssa's diagnosis of Depression was possibly either way off.. or she was depressed and had other issues that go along with it...

Typically, and I'm sorry for how this sounds.. but depressed people kill themselves.. not other people.

again JMO

If it is true they had to pump her stomach, then she did try to kill herself and that is why she got the diagnosis she did. jmo

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Is it possible that they spent so much time on the "Depression" diagnosis that they overlooked other possible conditions?

And Mia... I THINK she may have said.. "My mom and dad are in jail.. and I never get to see them.." That would sound like a pretty depressing story to most people..

 

[Csquare]

Is it possible that they spent so much time on the "Depression" diagnosis that they overlooked other possible conditions?

And Mia... I THINK she may have said.. "My mom and dad are in jail.. and I never get to see them.." That would sound like a pretty depressing story to most people..

If AB was diagnosed with depression, isn't depression sort of a general diagnossis? We need to diagnois her with somethig lets go with depresson.

 

[mia g]

Is it possible that they spent so much time on the "Depression" diagnosis that they overlooked other possible conditions?

And Mia... I THINK she may have said.. "My mom and dad are in jail.. and I never get to see them.." That would sound like a pretty depressing story to most people..

Yes that is true!!!

 

[eyes4crime]

Hi Scapa...

the problem with NOT trying her as an adult is that if tried as a juvenile she will pop out at 21, free and clear with NO record...scary thought IMHO

I have posted here about Michael Fernandez who killed Jamie Gough ...at age 14...he did it cause he wanted to kill someone and Jaime was his (smaller) friend and easy to kill
Michael felt

I have posted links to that sad story....I think it is very much like Allysa (btw Michael turned down a 30? year deal and is doing life in Florida)

http://www.justnews.com/news/17932520/detail.html

if you google Michael Hernandez and Jaime Gough you will get a ton of info...this case was big here in South Florida...they moved the trial to Orlando

Michael turned down a deal to get him out in 30 years....and got life without parole

He actually showed more signs of true "mental illness" than Allyssa it seems from what I have read...they feel he is schizophrenic...and he surely was obsessive/compulsive etc
he was not under a doctor's care...he simply decided he wanted to kill

http://cbs4.com/local/jamie.gough.school.2.825131.html

here is a point in the trial where his own parents testified they thought he was insane

http://www.justnews.com/news/17504198/detail.html

I have posted about this and I would be interested in what people think about this case in regards to Allysa....similar aren't they??

Thanks

Thanks for posting this case. I find it incredibly sad that children are killing children. Unbelievable isn't it?

A few of my thoughts: Once again we have a child with homicidal fantasies...murderous impulses....and he acts on them. Very similar to Alyssa.

Obviously he has OCD but with ocd one doesn't lose empathy and compassion - one still has a conscience. Nor is a child with OCD diagnosed as insane. mho

His collection of socks, knives, and bibles is interesting - it would be one thing if his beloved grandpa collected knives and/or bibles, but if he didn't, what do they represent? His collections represent something - who knows what it is! mho

He attempted more than once to murder children - if he had succeeded, he would be a serial killer at the age of 14, and who knows how many more he would go on to murder. He seems obsessed with violence as evidenced by the sites he visits on the computer.

My own opinion is that this child should be sent for life to a forensic mental hospital - where he can have some facsimile of a life. Research the heck of this child and who knows what insights one would gain. I feel the same way about Alyssa - yes they are very similiar and both very sad. all just my opinion. I would love to hear others!

 

[Csquare]

Thanks for posting this case. I find it incredibly sad that children are killing children. Unbelievable isn't it?

A few of my thoughts: Once again we have a child with homicidal fantasies...murderous impulses....and he acts on them. Very similar to Alyssa.

Obviously he has OCD but with ocd one doesn't lose empathy and compassion - one still has a conscience. Nor is a child with OCD diagnosed as insane. mho

His collection of socks, knives, and bibles is interesting - it would be one thing if his beloved grandpa collected knives and/or bibles, but if he didn't, what do they represent? His collections represent something - who knows what it is! mho

He attempted more than once to murder children - if he had succeeded, he would be a serial killer at the age of 14, and who knows how many more he would go on to murder. He seems obsessed with violence as evidenced by the sites he visits on the computer.

My own opinion is that this child should be sent for life to a forensic mental hospital - where he can have some facsimile of a life. Research the heck of this child and who knows what insights one would gain. I feel the same way about Alyssa - yes they are very similiar and both very sad. all just my opinion. I would love to hear others!

Thank you for the very valuable info. I still feel that both of those need to do some hard time to understand. If that is possible. I understand the need to analyze them but imo they need some institutional time also.

 

[kkmiami]

Hi Scapa...

the problem with NOT trying her as an adult is that if tried as a juvenile she will pop out at 21, free and clear with NO record...scary thought IMHO

I have posted here about Michael Fernandez who killed Jamie Gough ...at age 14...he did it cause he wanted to kill someone and Jaime was his (smaller) friend and easy to kill
Michael felt

I have posted links to that sad story....I think it is very much like Allysa (btw Michael turned down a 30? year deal and is doing life in Florida)

http://www.justnews.com/news/17932520/detail.html

if you google Michael Hernandez and Jaime Gough you will get a ton of info...this case was big here in South Florida...they moved the trial to Orlando

Michael turned down a deal to get him out in 30 years....and got life without parole

He actually showed more signs of true "mental illness" than Allyssa it seems from what I have read...they feel he is schizophrenic...and he surely was obsessive/compulsive etc
he was not under a doctor's care...he simply decided he wanted to kill

http://cbs4.com/local/jamie.gough.school.2.825131.html

here is a point in the trial where his own parents testified they thought he was insane

http://www.justnews.com/news/17504198/detail.html

I have posted about this and I would be interested in what people think about this case in regards to Allysa....similar aren't they??

Thanks

He was an honor student as well. Yes he was a student at Southwood Middle School which my son attended a few years before that happened. He took a knife to school and planned the murder. He did it in the boy's bathroom at the school. He showed no remorse.

 

[eyes4crime]

Thank you for the very valuable info. I still feel that both of those need to do some hard time to understand. If that is possible. I understand the need to analyze them but imo they need some institutional time also.

Here is another opinion lol, you with many others feel prison is the best alternative - I would be scared to death to put either of these kids in the prison system. Do they need to be hardened any more then they already are? God help us all if they ever escaped!

A disclaimer: I am not an advocate of the DP so, of course, I feel they have a lot to offer in terms of research. I guess you could put them in prison and eventually provide the therapy necessary to rehabilitate them from the prison system.

We have to agree to disagree on this cause for me, prison is nothing but a punishment that hardens and makes for a more resourceful and intelligent criminal.
so nice chatting with everyone - thanks for the insights and sleep well.

 

[W8nC]

"The philosophy of the juvenile court has always been rehabilitation. This goal is now made more attainable than ever by improved assessment tools, new effective community-intervention programs, and treatments for underlying psychiatric disorders. However, such efforts are often undermined by the diversion of scarce dollars into incarceration, long sentences, and the death penalty rather than into earlier intervention efforts and strengthening the juvenile justice system so that it can effectively respond to dangerous and/or repeat youth offenders to ensure public safety"
QUOTE]

This speaks to my previous point. The "scarce dollars" mentioned above are a reality we have to live with. With apologies to Paximus, there are a lot of windmills out there to tilt at but change takes time. My point was, everything provided to Alyssa for the next xx years, regardless of whether she's incarcerated in a mental facility or a prison, will be paid for by tax dollars. That's food, shelter, clothing, medical, education, toiletries, phone calls, every little thing. There are only so many tax dollars to go around. I don't have any extra money to donate to the cause, whether I want to or not. If anyone can wave a magic wand and get extra money for the government of MO to spend on state of the art mental healthcare for Alyssa, then by all means, go for it, with my blessing.

Look, I'm not against the solutions proposed by several posters, regarding high quality therapy/rehabilitaion. I'm just saying that realistically, we are NOT there and given the economy, and people's ability (or disability) to afford any more in taxes, we can't manage to provide perfect solutions. I don't know what your budget looks like, but mine is strained to the max. MO taxpayers can't afford to pay the psychiatrist fees, especialy after paying the big lawyer fees. I get why lawyers and psychiatrists can charge so much, not arguing that by any means, but we just can't stretch the budget any farther. So we'll pay for both sides of the legal part, for the prosocution, and the defense. Then if she's found guilty, she'll get whatever psyche help they offer, which won't be what you wish for, but will be better than nothing, which is what she can personally afford for herself.

IMHO

******




I talked to a woman today who gave a bunch of moving boxes to Elizabeth's mother the day after the funeral. She told the woman she couldn't stand to stay in that house, seeing those woods out her window every day. This woman told me that Elizabeth's mother was moving out of the house that very day. I drove by there today and there is a for rent sign in front of the house. That poor woman. I can't even begin to imagine what she's going through.

 

[LogicalMinds]

He was an honor student as well. Yes he was a student at Southwood Middle School which my son attended a few years before that happened. He took a knife to school and planned the murder. He did it in the boy's bathroom at the school. He showed no remorse.

Yes, a very good school....a "magnet" school, for gifted kids

Reading about Allyssa has reminded me a LOT of the MH case..

unlike Allyssa his family seems pretty stable, mom and dad, middle class

and he had NO history of psychiatric treatment...but apparently his parents had thought about and tried to talk him into it, due to his O/C stuff...which also involved exercise and diet,fitness...etc
He told them that he would "NOT talk to a therapist so why bother"

but OCD is not usually the sign of a killer anymore than depression...so how would a therapist know to treat him?? How would a therapist know how to treat Allyssa?? Presumably they were on the alert for depression, suicidal thoughts....she must have hid the murderous thoughts to them

ONE THING WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO "LEARN" FROM BOTH THIS HORRIBLE STORIES....

IS THAT KIDS SHOULD NOT BE AFRAID TO "TELL" ON A FRIEND WHO IS WEIRD, "DARK", INTO VIOLENT/GORE/MURDER ETC

Watching the MH case unfold I saw various little friends interviewed...who variously remarked about things he said/did...

he enjoyed gory websites...bodies, decapitation pictures...he even told other kids at time that he wondered what it would be like to kill someone

and then to hear the interviews about Allysa...she also TOLD her friends...she "wondered what it would be like to kill someone"

Goth, ICP, video games or whatever....lots of kids play at that stuff...but when a kid says they "want to kill" or "wonder what it is like to kill" etc...then maybe other kids should tell someone ??

and of course...maybe Parents need to monitor kids more?? Michael was into a lot of "dark" and sadistic websites, drew pictures of people with knives in their heads, etc

I think they are very much alike. And both are very dangerous and frightening

 

[LogicalMinds]

Is it possible that they spent so much time on the "Depression" diagnosis that they overlooked other possible conditions?

And Mia... I THINK she may have said.. "My mom and dad are in jail.. and I never get to see them.." That would sound like a pretty depressing story to most people..

It is also possible that she simply hid her "dark" ideas from them...she knew that to tell her thoughts would result in more structure or maybe going away to a mental hospital or group home or more supervision

I think it is possible for a sociopath to be depressed (or to have OCD) or to have other mental problems....but at the root of it , it may not be mental illness as such but a "behavior" or "wiring" problem....the lack of the "superego" as some say...or just a basic lack of any sort of empathy or feeling for other people??

To me, a kid with anger problems who kills in an angry fight might be rehabed....or a very jealous insecure kid who kills out of jealousy....even a poor kid who wants monetary things and kills while trying to take them...
those at least are human emotions

but ....Allysa...and Michael..are like some alien life forms IMHO>>> they remind me of that old movie "Children of the Dammed"..with the blank eyes

study them?? I guess if the money is there....keep them in mental hospitals ? ok...but...I just don't see how they could ever be trusted to be free in society

Michael said he planned to NOT talk to any therapist....Allysa was manipulative and able to fool people it seems...and both are above average in intelligence so we can't blame that

 

[akashana]

Just some insight in too todays prisons, MANY MANY inmates get released, and go directly out and commit another crime, because they "NEED TO GO HOME"..their home IS the prison. BECAUSE life in prison is better for many then life in the world.

<RESPECTFULLY SNIPPED>

MY BOLD

IMHO, it's not so much that prison is a better place, it's that they have become so institutionalized that prison is the only home for them because it's the only place where they can fit in. At least they understand the rules to live in prison. Adapting themselves to society often proves to be their undoing.

 

[mia g]

MY BOLD

IMHO, it's not so much that prison is a better place, it's that they have become so institutionalized that prison is the only home for them because it's the only place where they can fit in. At least they understand the rules to live in ptison. Adapting themselves to society often proves to be their undoing.

Yes that was what I meant, but in their eyes it was BETTER, they were eating three meals a day, had a bed(if that is what u wanna call it, but better then a box I guess)..and some even told me they got treated better IN prison then in the world.. So where you and I wouldnt really think prison life was better, some do. Some were instutionalized, others free world life just realy truly sucked. Also IMHO there are also some inmates that NEED the structure and consistance of prison.

 

[mia g]

It is also possible that she simply hid her "dark" ideas from them[/B]...she knew that to tell her thoughts would result in more structure or maybe going away to a mental hospital or group home or more supervision
I think it is possible for a sociopath to be depressed (or to have OCD) or to have other mental problems....but at the root of it , it may not be mental illness as such but a "behavior" or "wiring" problem....the lack of the "superego" as some say...or just a basic lack of any sort of empathy or feeling for other people??

To me, a kid with anger problems who kills in an angry fight might be rehabed....or a very jealous insecure kid who kills out of jealousy....even a poor kid who wants monetary things and kills while trying to take them...
those at least are human emotions

but ....Allysa...and Michael..are like some alien life forms IMHO>>> they remind me of that old movie "Children of the Dammed"..with the blank eyes

study them?? I guess if the money is there....keep them in mental hospitals ? ok...but...I just don't see how they could ever be trusted to be free in society

Michael said he planned to NOT talk to any therapist....Allysa was manipulative and able to fool people it seems...and both are above average in intelligence so we can't blame that

Very Good post!!!!! Well I was gonna BOLD all the really good points, but they are all very good IMHO