MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[JLMcKenna83]

Then we have the reports of expert evaluations:
"Bustamante is described in the documents as a troubled, angst-ridden teen, but not extraordinarily so."
"A standardized test designed to evaluate Bustamante’s state of mind administered before Elizabeth Olten was killed determined that her risk for self-harm was “mild” and her tendency toward moodiness was “moderate.”
Columbia Tribune

Quite honestly.. as having been a 15 year old girl myself.. I find this statement to be descriptive of most 15 year old girls.. Most 15 year old girls are quite moody and tend to be a bit dramatic.. It's the hormones.. They're all wacky at this age.. but I disagree that her risk for self harm was "mild".. Look at the scars she had.. self-harm, self-mutilation, whatever you'd like to call it.. Those scars do not represent a "mild" risk IMO

(I'm not knocking you Prof.. just telling you from my personal experience...)

 

[kkmiami]

Interesting thing about Michael vs Allysa is that he was not on Prozac or any other "meds"...

he had never been to a psychiatrist (his parents had asked him to go to one twice in the months before the murder, but for his OCD...and he refused, telling them he would not talk at all and they would waste their money)

Michael was also not drinking or on drugs...his OCD started with his goal to be "fit" after being chubby in grade school...and involved running, exercise, and eating healthy. It then evolved into being "uber neat" and lining things up.

Michael was in a "magnet" school, an honor student and well liked. Stable parents, no divorce, middle class homelife.

He simply decided his career path and like any young "go getter" he went for it...he decided to be a "serial killer" at the age of 14.

No prozac at all there.

You know why? Because Prozac had NOTHING to do with AB's murder of Elizabeth. It is, in my personal opinion based on use of, a very good drug to treat depression. Depression is one thing, homicidal ideation is a totally different thing and I do not in the least think the Prozac triggered this behavior. As demonstrated by Michael Hernandez, which was very similar behavior, Prozac did not enter the equation. It is something in their chemical makeup that alters their thinking and many sociopaths display OP behaviors. Since they do not think they need treatment, they continue with their behavior and are able to hide it from everyone except those who discover who they really are. Then they set out to destroy them. They can hide it from psychologists, psychiatrists, and anyone else they want to deceive.

 

[Bibliophile]

True...but statistically the "outward" type of anger/depression is found in males ...and more found in mass murders or murder /suicide of family
or "DBC"...death by cop...where they set up a situation where they get gunned down by LE in a standoff

Yes, I posted the info only for a data point.

All and all, the point I was trying to make was that depression can be a precursor for homicide. However, it seems there is an important distinction between those types of killings and this one - anger outward killings are often very dramatic and public. They don't try to hide the bodies.

 

[Prof]

Quite honestly.. as having been a 15 year old girl myself.. I find this statement to be descriptive of most 15 year old girls.. Most 15 year old girls are quite moody and tend to be a bit dramatic.. It's the hormones.. They're all wacky at this age.. but I disagree that her risk for self harm was "mild".. Look at the scars she had.. self-harm, self-mutilation, whatever you'd like to call it.. Those scars do not represent a "mild" risk IMO

(I'm not knocking you Prof.. just telling you from my personal experience...)

Oh, I know that you are not knocking me, as I did not provide that expert testimony at the hearing to determine if this child should be tried as an adult or not IMO

and in my personal experience many 9 to 18 year olds are moody-- yes, it is the hormones together with the developmental stage of the brain IMO

My only point in posting that was to question (and I probably was not clear on that so I thank you!) how this could be a report of intensive evaluation and therapy? A standardized test and some notes from counselors? It just does not seem to evidence what I have seen defined as intensive treatment -- I am no expert, but I have read up on this as I just do not feel that I have seen much scrutiny ahead of time on the part of any adult -- IMOIMOIMO lol

 

[Prof]

I have a question for those of you with more knowledge and experience in the study of mental illness than I

Is there a standard age for a diagnosis of sociopathy or psychopathy? At what age can such a diagnosis ethically or medically be made?

If the standard is to wait until 18 for such a diagnosis, for instance, can mental health professionals diagnose someone as on the way to being a sociopath, IDK such as peri-sociopathic?

Did the gm know that AB allegedly had no empathy? and would this not be an alert to someone?

 

[LogicalMinds]

I have a question for those of you with more knowledge and experience in the study of mental illness than I

Is there a standard age for a diagnosis of sociopathy or psychopathy? At what age can such a diagnosis ethically or medically be made?

If the standard is to wait until 18 for such a diagnosis, for instance, can mental health professionals diagnose someone as on the way to being a sociopath, IDK such as peri-sociopathic?

Did the gm know that AB allegedly had no empathy? and would this not be an alert to someone?

Hi I am not an expert, but I have been doing a crash reading course on the net <grin>

seems that most say sociopath (psychopath) are not true mental illness...but a personality "disorder" that is harder to treat...not a chemical imbalance like bipolar...not a brain disfunction etc

the traits of a sociopath make them actually "likable"...which is why perhaps both Allysa and MH had friends, were sociable

they can be charming it seems

and not all ..or maybe not even most...murder...

look at charming Bernie Madoff....other con artists....and just people who in general cause confusion and pain and hurt...

I would bet that the GM had her own doubts and fears...but most good people try to be positive, hope that a "child" will get "well", improve...

and again...a trait of a sociopath is to be manipulative, charming, to decieve and they are apparently excellent liars

Here is a good page with a lot of info...

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

the dvm says they must have shown a "conduct disorder" before age of 15..
yet the "diagnosis" comes at age 18?

maybe Allysa and Michael H were ahead of the curve here

 

[Mickey Mouse]

I have a question for those who wish that Allyssa go into some sort of mental health facility for "study".

How exactly would this "study" work?

Put a cat and a fork in the room with her and see what she does? Hmmm... much as we mice dislike cats, that is probably not a good idea.

Therapy? What do you think will go through Alyssa's mind?

"Why, yes, I do so regret my actions that I want to share my deepest thoughts with you so that you may prevent others like me from killing... even though the last time I shared my secrets it didn't go so well for me."

"Yes, I am so bonded with you, my therapist, that I will tell you everything... even though I was unable to properly bond with family and friends."

"Yes, I want to help society, even though society is keeping me locked up."

What do we have that indicates she will cooperate with any sort of study?

On the other hand, we have many examples of killers who have lied to and manipulated those who attempted to interrogate, study, and learn from them... David Berkowitz who blamed his killings on his neighbor's dog, Ted Bundy who promised names of more victims right up to the moment of his execution, myriad other killers who gave different stories to different researchers...

For heaven's sake, a non-criminal example out of academia... Margaret Mead was even lied to by the Samoans she was studying!

People in Alyssa's situation will cooperate only if she can find a way for it to benefit her... if she thinks she can get her therapist to believe her "cured' and "reformed" and help her get released.

Any research conducted on her can never be trusted as accurate.

 

[scapa]

I have a question for those of you with more knowledge and experience in the study of mental illness than I

Is there a standard age for a diagnosis of sociopathy or psychopathy? At what age can such a diagnosis ethically or medically be made?

If the standard is to wait until 18 for such a diagnosis, for instance, can mental health professionals diagnose someone as on the way to being a sociopath, IDK such as peri-sociopathic?

Did the gm know that AB allegedly had no empathy? and would this not be an alert to someone?

As I understand it, conduct disorder is the closest thing to "peri-sociopathy" currently on the books, although conduct disorder(s) are considered to be treatable in many cases. This diagnosis is not uncommonly made in children and has is associated with specific therapeutic regimens. I'm not sure what the stats are for conduct disorders becoming full-blown sociopathy in adulthood but expect that there would be some link.

One problem with diagnosing children (or young adults) is that their brains and personalities are not yet viewed as "settled;" they can react very differently to medication and even therapy to their adult counterparts and until fairly recently, have arguably been less well-researched and therefore less well-understood than adults. We know less about what makes them tick and break down and their likelihood of reoffending. I suspect that the chances of someone like AB reoffending violently on her own following a well-organized period of detention and rehabilitation would be fairly low but obviously any risk is worse than none (LWOP). I can think of very few young women who have committed a crime like this on their own -- usually seems to be with a lover/friend, etc., though I guess there's Mary Bell (?).

This is a very odd case -- the extremely low affect apparently displayed by AB in the aftermath, the "wanting to feel what it's like," the evidence of planning, all suggest a strong disconnect between act and consequences. That said, I doubt any one person had access to all the "signs" that seem to us now to be so foreboding in this case. It's possible that a longer stay in a top-shelf psychiatric facility under a correct diagnosis might have diverted AB from her course, but even then perhaps not. I think this is what might be most troubling to us as we attempt to make sense of the case.

best,

s

 

[Bibliophile]

Most of my posts are in response to sweeping statements about "AB's having years of daily therapy which did not help so therefore she cannot be fixed and should be locked up in prison for life" -- I would like proof of this 2 years of daily intensive therapy

I don't think she had two years of daily, intensive therapy. I think she had a high degree/amount of services.

Given my knowledge of Missouri's services and what has been reported from friends and court proceedings, I can readily deduce that she had follow up treatment after her in-patient hospitalization.
We know her hospitalization was in 2007. We don't know if that was January or December, so for the sake of discussion, let's just say it was September 2007.

Following that, local reports say she was away from school a few months, so the most likely explanation for that absence is that she was attending Pathway's Day Treatment program or in Prenger. Those are the two places she would have continued to receive therapy and not been considered truant from school. That might take us up to roughly, January 2008.

Following that she was most likely attending weekly therapy sessions, possibly group therapy sessions and med checks with an MD for several months or longer.

There may have been a lull in therapy 6 to 12 months following her hospitalization if the crisis was well past and therapists/family thought there was improvement. Then again, she could have continued weekly therapy for a year.

This could have gone on to January of this year (again just guessing to give us a theoretical timeline reference). However, at some point near the time of the murder, it is reported that she was receiving therapy nearly every day.

The only programs in the state of Missouri that allow for such intensive treatment are the ones structured through the Dept of Social Services or the Juvenile Court. That indicates there was some sort of crisis that preceded the institution of this particular therapy program. It could have been that her grandparents were having problems controlling her or that she committed other crimes. Nevertheless, the program criteria is that she was at imminent risk of removal from the home.

Of course all of this is assuming her grandparents aren't multi-millionares who can afford to bring in 30k + a month, private practitioners.

I doubt that they had much knowledge of what her daily life was like after reading some of the following published reports that I have posted in many of my previous posts:

list respectfully snipped

She no doubt carried a knife because of her issues with cutting - many do. And as someone else noted, there are many things you've listed that wouldn't necessarily be red flags in a 15 year old - they're only red flags taken all together and after a murder has been committed. Unless all of these people were attending her staffings or team meetings, the opportunity to exchange this information wouldn't have occurred. http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/nov/19/teenager-indicted-in-slaying-of-9-year-old-girl/

Split hairs? sorry, I seriously did not know I was splitting hairs; I simply thought I had an open mind

Please go back and read that I wrote "we" not "you" I'm sorry if you felt I was singling you out.

I've wrote it before -- mental health services here and in other places are far from stellar, and on this discussion board we have the superhuman advantage of looking at these things in hindsight after a tragedy. I don't think its unusual at all for the therapist not to know many things about a client and particularly a teenage female who was participating reluctantly or involuntarily.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Conduct disorder (before age of 15) is a precursor to sociopathy (antisocial personality disorder)..

apparently conduct disorder has SOME chance of treatment...it can evolve into bipolar...depression....which can be treated with medications, therapy

behavior modification works on some too....

but some develop into true sociopaths...and it seems that Allysa *and MH were on that path

maybe...maybe...IF they had been treating her for conduct disorder she might have not gotten this far but hard to tell since these people are manipulative

I do think that she probably should have been in a residential treatment center or something...but then what story would we hear?? 15 year old girl kills fellow inmate??

here is wiki on conduct disorders which Allysa seems to have some of the signs of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduct_disorder

the scary part is that she also had the true sociopath ability to be likable, to "fit in", to hide things....seems many of the "conduct disorder" kids are boys....and more likely to be acting out , like our idea of "juvenile deliquents"....(like the boys in my sig line who set Michael Brewer on fire)

If you have watched the tv series "V"..where loving "benevolent" aliens come to earth, ready to give us anything we want, cure diseases, come in "peace"...all are lovely and charming and serene...but underneath their glowing skin they are "reptiles"....here to rob, rape and plunder the earthlings

I think of these people like that...like lizards, cold blooded, under the skin

but likable charming

Recent news reports show that Bernie Madoff is the "man" in prison...already looked up to and walking around like a little king...other inmates admire him, one even did a lovely portrait of him

 

[Bibliophile]

My only point in posting that was to question (and I probably was not clear on that so I thank you!) how this could be a report of intensive evaluation and therapy? A standardized test and some notes from counselors? It just does not seem to evidence what I have seen defined as intensive treatment -- I am no expert, but I have read up on this as I just do not feel that I have seen much scrutiny ahead of time on the part of any adult -- IMOIMOIMO lol

Just for informational purposes --- when a patient is admitted to MMMHH they receive a battery of psychological tests; interviews (individual and with a team) of psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers and reports from psych nursing, occupational and recreational (degreed) therapists. Interviews with family are always a part of a pediatric eval.

When a juvenile is placed in detention, all their past records (med, psych, school) are obtained and further psychological testing will be administrated if warranted. They are interviewed by various staff and the family is also interviewed. Further evaluations with psychiatrists and psychologists may also occur. The team meets and a caseworker complies a report for the court with information from all sources.

 

[gliving]

the traits of a sociopath make them actually "likable"...which is why perhaps both Allysa and MH had friends, were sociable

they can be charming it seems

and not all ..or maybe not even most...murder...

look at charming Bernie Madoff....other con artists....and just people who in general cause confusion and pain and hurt...

I would bet that the GM had her own doubts and fears...but most good people try to be positive, hope that a "child" will get "well", improve...

and again...a trait of a sociopath is to be manipulative, charming, to decieve and they are apparently excellent liars

Scott Peterson comes to mind. Laci's family and friends were completely dumbfounded when the facts came out. They had absolutely no idea that he was capable of murder and even defended him until shown proof.

 

[Bibliophile]

I have a question for those of you with more knowledge and experience in the study of mental illness than I

Is there a standard age for a diagnosis of sociopathy or psychopathy? At what age can such a diagnosis ethically or medically be made?

If the standard is to wait until 18 for such a diagnosis, for instance, can mental health professionals diagnose someone as on the way to being a sociopath, IDK such as peri-sociopathic?

Did the gm know that AB allegedly had no empathy? and would this not be an alert to someone?

You'll find a lot of disagreement about this among experts in the field. In fact, the term "sociopathy" is no longer in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM, now DSM IV TR) and therefore not a valid diagnosis. The closest you may come to it falls under DSM's, "antisocial personality disorder" (Axis II Cluster B) but there continues to be controversy about this.

As we've witnessed with Alyssa Bustamante, there are interpersonal traits (the ones we wonder why no one saw) and there are behavioral traits. Behavioral traits are much easier to access - we can see them. Interpersonal traits are much harder to pin down. Traditionally, "Sociopaths" are primarily defined by interpersonal traits, so the DSM changed the focus.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Scott Peterson comes to mind. Laci's family and friends were completely dumbfounded when the facts came out. They had absolutely no idea that he was capable of murder and even defended him until shown proof.

So true...so many of those cases are "alike"..and now a new sad one in Utah...Susan Powell...her "hubby" seems to be right in line with Scott Peterson, Drew Peterson, Mark Hacking and the rest of that sad litany

however....I personally still find Allyssa and Michael H more scary than them...
those sociopath adult men had their own selfish twisted "reasons">>> ie, didn't want to be a dad,
wife was finding out lies, wife wanted to leave them....some "motive" of sorts, no matter how twisted or low it was

in the case/s of Allyssa and Michael H there is NO motive at all...no emotion...not hate, jealousy, sex, envy, greed...nothing other than a desire to see what "killing" someone felt like

chilling.....the reptile beneath the skin??

 

[LogicalMinds]

And wow...here is a very interesting site...Dr Roberts...who answers a self diagnosed sociopath

Dr Roberts questions whether (feeling) psychotherapists can truly treat anti-social behavior (sociopaths)

http://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/sociopath.html

 

[Prof]

I don't think she had two years of daily, intensive therapy. I think she had a high degree/amount of services.

Given my knowledge of Missouri's services and what has been reported from friends and court proceedings, I can readily deduce that she had follow up treatment after her in-patient hospitalization.

Yes, David Cook's testimony stated "follow up" treatment --

In 2007, Cook said, [AB] attempted suicide, prompting a 10-day stay at the Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center. Follow-up treatment included a prescription for the anti-depressant Prozac and near-daily meetings with counselors. http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/nov/19/teenager-indicted-in-slaying-of-9-year-old-girl/

We know her hospitalization was in 2007. We don't know if that was January or December, so for the sake of discussion, let's just say it was September 2007.

Good guess! or memory "During the certification hearing, people testified that [AB] has a history of mental illness. She attempted suicide in September 2007." http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=378975

Following that, local reports say she was away from school a few months, so the most likely explanation for that absence is that she was attending Pathway's Day Treatment program or in Prenger. Those are the two places she would have continued to receive therapy and not been considered truant from school. That might take us up to roughly, January 2008.

I did see the JM ("friend")interview:

[JM] "told Crimesider that two years ago, [AB] took 'a bunch
of Tylenol and something else, some sort of pain killer' at her
grandparent's home, where she lived.
'She passed out and her grandma found her and called an ambulance,' [JM] said. 'She had to have her stomach pumped.'
'Then she went to the hospital for a while and they sent her to a
psych ward for a while,' [JM ] said. 'I know she was away from school
for like two or three months.'"

Hmmn---
I am curious about JM or other "friends" statements not only because of their age, and admitted distance from AB as of late, but because one discusses pills and the other discusses slit wrists, and I could swear I read somewhere about a hanging attempt, oh well; Then there is the court testimony of her suicide attempt about cutting her writsts, so IDK who or what to believe
"A similar claim was echoed in the courtroom Wednesday.
A witness said when [AB] was in eighth grade, she tried to kill herself by cutting her wrists."
http://www.abc17news.com/news/story.php?id=15503

Yes, all we can do is guess -- and right now I guess I should get back to work

Thanks for all of your insight, Bibliophile

 

[Bibliophile]

And wow...here is a very interesting site...Dr Roberts...who answers a self diagnosed sociopath

Dr Roberts questions whether (feeling) psychotherapists can truly treat anti-social behavior (sociopaths)

http://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/sociopath.html

Thanks for this. I found the related link and question interesting as he discusses what I mentioned in an above post.

"Unfortunately, the American Psychological Association seems not just uninterested, but actively hostile to the approach of depth psychology which attempts to investigate not only behavior, but also motivation and inner experience. The APA definitions of personality disorders promulgated in the DSM are based almost entirely on observation of external behaviors, showing little or no interest in the inner, emotional world of the person to be diagnosed. For example, the criteria set for a diagnosis of APD includes such phrases as "failure to conform to social norms," "repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest," and "irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults," while including only one mention of an intrapsychic characteristic--"lack of remorse"--and this one item, which is a central feature of psychopathy, is not even required to make the diagnosis. And so we now have conduct disorder and antisocial personality disorder, but no psychopathy."

http://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/mildpsychopath.html

I have always believed there were different degrees of psychopathy (though I don't agree w/ Kantor) and IMO, the more intelligent, the greater the risk of more serious forms simply because of their brain function.

I also believe all these pigeon-holing diagnostics are what might keep us from further understanding young killers like Alyssa.

 

[human]

Thanks for this. I found the related link and question interesting as he discusses what I mentioned in an above post.

"Unfortunately, the American Psychological Association seems not just uninterested, but actively hostile to the approach of depth psychology which attempts to investigate not only behavior, but also motivation and inner experience. The APA definitions of personality disorders promulgated in the DSM are based almost entirely on observation of external behaviors, showing little or no interest in the inner, emotional world of the person to be diagnosed. For example, the criteria set for a diagnosis of APD includes such phrases as "failure to conform to social norms," "repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest," and "irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults," while including only one mention of an intrapsychic characteristic--"lack of remorse"--and this one item, which is a central feature of psychopathy, is not even required to make the diagnosis. And so we now have conduct disorder and antisocial personality disorder, but no psychopathy."

http://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/mildpsychopath.html

I have always believed there were different degrees of psychopathy (though I don't agree w/ Kantor) and IMO, the more intelligent, the greater the risk of more serious forms simply because of their brain function.

I also believe all these pigeon-holing diagnostics are what might keep us from further understanding young killers like Alyssa.

My guess is since no one can really understand the inner workings of the mind at this point, they have to use tools that can be identified. They can't use "I feel" or "I think" or "I guess" what someone may be thinking.

The only thing that can be documented and is observable is behavior. So until we can see the inner workings of the mind, which they are making progress on, people are stuck on identifying that which is observable and that which is not so subjective.

 

[mia g]

Some of you are going to totally disagree with me, but this is my opinion, and probably mine alone!!!

So we should abolish any kind of punishment for any and all crimes, from getting busted for pot, to robbing a convinence store, to murder in any degree? So why do we need laws, if they do not mean anything. We just turn our back and say that person has mental issues. Hey I have mental issues, I get depressed and worried, but I don't think about killing someone, robbing someone, or taking drugs whether illegal or prescribed.

Sorry, but the more I read about the therapy for those that commit these senseless crimes, the more I think they need to be punished, and maybe that is what is wrong with todays young people, LACK OF PUNISHMENT, STRUCTURE, AND RESPECT!!!

Ok, let the flaming begin, but this is my opinion. And I do understand AB is only 15 and is still a child, but still she is dangerous and has proved it. If and when this goes to trial, I am not sure that the details of the events will not totally shock us even more.

I agree with your post.

I wonder what would happen IF with most cases of mental illness, we as a world QUIT letting them USE their problems as excuses. If we focused on tough love and tough therapy, and told them work with your illness, learn it, and QUIT using it!! JMHO

I do realize there are a few mental illnesses that this wouldnt be possible, but there are far more that it just might work well for.

 

[human]

People have a sadness for Alyssa and I do as well. The young mind is brought up a lot.

Alyssa did not choose to drink and drive and kill someone (poor decision). She didn't cheat on her entrance exam to get into college and thereby ruin her chances for a good education (poor decision). I could go on with a number of poor decisions made by younger people and older as well.

She willingly killed a young child. That's not poor decision making. That's not immature thinking of a young child who doesn't understand death is forever. That's something totally different.

We live in a culture that thinks consequences don't matter. According to a study that I read years ago, it was found that punishment works for criminals if it is swift and sure.

The greatest reinforcement is not winning every time, but winning once in awhile, so we continually reinforce bad behavior by giving people lots of chances before they receive a consequence. This is just general talk on my part about stopping bad behavior.

AB is someone we don't understand for whatever reason. Should she get another chance? Elizabeth doesn't get another chance. I think people who kill and it isn't first degree, do deserve another chance depending on the circumstances.

Her age gives her another chance? If she was born 2 generations ago, she might be married, pregnant and keeping up a home and family. Her husband of the same age would be working a real job taking care of his family.

I heard a presentation on public radio that talked about killing actually not being part of the human makeup. The presenter was talking about war, and he said that they found if there isn't a person of higher authority present, soldiers would turn their weapons and shoot another direction so as not to kill.