I am not sure if it happens in every case..BUT when my daughter was 12 and the victim of a sex crime,(there was no physical contact) I stayed in constant contact with the DA, and he ran the plea bargain ny me, and asked if I was satisfied with it. I was. I guess maybe if I had been asking for something extreme my thought would not have mattered. That is the only crime i have personal knowledge, so I do not know if that happens in every case..but I know it DOES happen.
MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14
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I am not sure if it happens in every case..BUT when my daughter was 12 and the victim of a sex crime,(there was no physical contact) I stayed in constant contact with the DA, and he ran the plea bargain ny me, and asked if I was satisfied with it. I was. I guess maybe if I had been asking for something extreme my thought would not have mattered. That is the only crime i have personal knowledge, so I do not know if that happens in every case..but I know it DOES happen.
Bibliophile
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Cole County has designated a web page specifically for the Bustamante case. Any documents filed will be posted to the page within one business day of their filing.
http://www.colecountycourts.com/courtnews.htm
http://www.colecountycourts.com/courtnews.htm
JLMcKenna83
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Would the state really offer a plea deal?
IMO..
They have Elizabeth... They have evidence of Alyssa being the murderer.... (confession, "note") The only thing that they'd have to worry about in court is Alyssa's lawyer trying to push for an insanity defense.. and we've seen several cases where it was pretty much impossible to get someone off on that..
I think the state may already have a pretty solid case.. And they don't really need anything else out of Alyssa.... I just don't see them offering a plea....
IMO..
They have Elizabeth... They have evidence of Alyssa being the murderer.... (confession, "note") The only thing that they'd have to worry about in court is Alyssa's lawyer trying to push for an insanity defense.. and we've seen several cases where it was pretty much impossible to get someone off on that..
I think the state may already have a pretty solid case.. And they don't really need anything else out of Alyssa.... I just don't see them offering a plea....
The expense of the trial would be one reason the prosecution would agree to a plea bargain. The jury will probably come in from another county. A trial would extend the time, imo, to close the case. Who knows how long it would take to finally get it to trial. Even though both sides know Judge Joyce, they don't know what sentence she may impose. I don't believe she has had a 15yr old murderer to sentence. So that, imo, makes it risky for both sides to go with a trial. This was discussed before by one or more of the lawyers in this forum that it is as advantageous for the prosecution to reach a deal. I think a plea deal on the part of the defense will involve having her incarcerated in the dual jurisdiction facility at Montgomery City until she is at least 18 and then sent to a mental facility if necessary and then to a prison. jmo
jashrema
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EXACTLY! ITA!
While I agree with your assessments on born, products of environment, or traumatic event sociopaths...I do no agree that they all suffer an "imbalance" in the brain. If you're talking imbalance, you're talking chemicals. In all my years in medicine, I have not heard that sociopathy can be blamed on "imbalance in the brain".
I think we have a tendency to throw around sociopath to explain anyone's deviant behavior, when in reality, that person could possibly be a psychopath. Psychopaths can blend very well into society..they're not all "raving lunatics" baying at the moon. The rate for recidivism is EXTREMELY high for a psychopath, and in my personal opinion, I believe AB qualifies as one. AB didn't just snuff the life out of Elizabeth to see what it felt like, she put her hands around her throat and strangled her, looking into her eyes, strangled her...to "see what that felt like" Having experienced strangling someone, she then stabbed her, to "experience" that, after repeatedly plunging a knife in and out of her, she then moved on to "experience" what it felt like to slit a childs throat. She murdered this poor child in three different ways...THROW. AWAY. THE. KEY. I mean, c'mon people, who cares at this point what kind of help she was receiving? It didn't work!! She's a psychopath, she will never be cured, and she would be a threat to society walking free. Forever. This girl is evil. Empty. Souless, whatever you want to call her, she will not be rehabilitated, she needs to be in a cage the rest of her natural life...just like any other wild animal.
After living half a century, and spending most of my life in medicine, it never ceases to amaze me that some people are still looking for the "whys" of everything. On some level, I believe it's because alot of society just cannot accept the fact that there are people walking among us that are just evil. That for whatever reason, they will kill, and kill again, until they are caught and caged. I have looked into the eyes of one or two people that are just NOT THERE. They're not mentally ill, they do not have a personality disorder or a chemical imbalance, they are just psychopaths...non "curable" and definitely not rehabitable. Whatever is missing in AB, will never be found, replaced, or taught.
I know I've gone on a rant here, and I mean no disrespect to anyone on this board, this is solely my opinion.
Interesting reading regarding psychopaths...
Psychopathy is a concept subject to much debate, but is usually defined as a constellation of affective, interpersonal, and behavioral characteristics including egocentricity; impulsivity; irresponsibility; shallow emotions; lack of empathy, guilt, or remorse; pathological lying; manipulativeness; and the persistent violation of social norms and expectations (Cleckley 1976; Hare 1993). The crimes of psychopaths are usually stone-cold, remorseless killings for no apparent reason. They cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. In many ways, they are natural-born intraspecies predators who satisfy their lust for power and control by charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence. While almost all societies would regard them as criminals (the exception being frontier or warlike societies where they might become heroes, patriots, or leaders), it's important to distinguish their behavior from criminal behavior. As a common axiom goes in psychology, MOST PSYCHOPATHS ARE ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITIES BUT NOT ALL ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITIES ARE PSYCHOPATHS. This is because APD is defined mainly by behaviors (Factor 2 antisocial behaviors) and doesn't tap the affective/interpersonal dimensions (Factor 1 core psychopathic features, narcissism) of psychopathy. Further, criminals and APDs tend to "age out" of crime; psychopaths do not, and are at high risk of recidivism. Psychopaths love to intellectualize in treatment with their half-baked understanding of rules. Like the Star Trek character, Spock, their reasoning cannot handle any mix of cognition and emotion. They are calculating predators who, when trapped, will attempt escape, create a nuisance and danger to staff, be a disruptive influence on other patients or inmates, and fake symptoms to get transferred, bouncing back and forth between institutions.
scapa
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Very interesting material above re. psychopathy. Here's a quick question: let's say that AB is a psychopath. Let's say further that she was "born that way," did not choose it, cannot control it because she is structurally able to. Given a certain set of circumstances, she was bound to act out, and violently. In this sense, she is the moral equivalent of someone who is born with a physical or mental [plug in abnormality/ challenge here]. Then the question is something like this: how do we assign responsibility to this person and how (or not) do we hope to deal with or even eventually reintegrate her?
It seems to me that we often assign blameworthiness on the basis of choice. Criminal X decided to carry out some crime, and deserves sanction for it. But if Criminal X is incapable of rational choice -- altogether lacks a moral compass --what do we do?
Please note that I have no idea if this is the case with AB and even if it is, agree absolutely that this was a horrific crime and one that requires strong sanction. But I wonder if part of our reaction is down to the "alien-ness" of this kind of murder, much more so than a crime of passion, say, or stealing to support a habit.
best,
s
It seems to me that we often assign blameworthiness on the basis of choice. Criminal X decided to carry out some crime, and deserves sanction for it. But if Criminal X is incapable of rational choice -- altogether lacks a moral compass --what do we do?
Please note that I have no idea if this is the case with AB and even if it is, agree absolutely that this was a horrific crime and one that requires strong sanction. But I wonder if part of our reaction is down to the "alien-ness" of this kind of murder, much more so than a crime of passion, say, or stealing to support a habit.
best,
s
Bibliophile
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This may be problematic. The prosecutor can't make deals for DYS and DYS has to agree (RSMo 211.073.1.2). Odds are they won't agree due to a variety of problems.
The last I knew, Montgomery was a 40 bed facility divided into four cottages and they were all male. DYS isn't required to make accommodations for her.
Even with all that aside, AB will turn 16 in a few weeks and may be within less than six months of 17 before a trial and sentencing and DYS eval is complete. Once she reaches the age of 17, law requires a hearing to be held to determine if she has completed effective treatment, will be released or transferred to DOC.
Clearly someone who has never actually been in combat. The primal motivation is to kill them before they get a chance to kill you. Having a commander around has nothing to do with it. The role of the commander is to ensure that soldiers place THEMSELVES in harms way when required, not to get them to kill the enemy - they will generally do that all on their own.
The dual jurisdiction was brought up in news conference as a possibility even if she is tried as an adult. A plea deal would have to go through the judge and the judge would order DYS to evaluate her. I think they are going to have to get ready for girls sometime, could just as well be this time. Montgomery City is the only dual jurisdiction facility. I don't know why anyone would bring it up in a news conference if it wasn't a possibility. jmo
JLMcKenna83
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So where's Alyssa gonna wait until they build accommodations just for her?
IMO.. how nice it is that she kills a defenseless little girl and would possibly be placed in a brand new cabin all to herself! She needs to be in a max security prison with the big girls, hearing stories of how they killed the person who was raping them and beating them everyday.. not just because they wanted to know what it felt like.
Some girl whether it is Aslyssa or not is going to have to wait for DYS prepare for dual jurisdiction females sometime. I don't think dual jurisdiction is specifically just for males. County jails in my opinion are not for housing over a year. That is where she is going to be sitting for 2,3, 4 years until they get around to a trial. Dual jurisdiction as I understand it is for juviniles who are tried and found guilty in adult court. I am not sure the Montgomery City facilty is unsecured cabins. We need to take all those boys out of that dual jurisdiction facility if girls are not going to go there too. I don't really care where they keep her, I just brought it up as a possible plea bargain possiblity. Like I said DYS is going to have to get ready for the girls sometime either that they need to get rid of it for the boys. jmo
JLMcKenna83
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Where do girls go now if they get in trouble? Are all the girls in that area little angels who never get in trouble?
ETA: I'm just wondering about how the housing right now is for boys.. I mean seriously.. are there no bad girls in the area? And if there are.. then where do they go??
ETA: I'm just wondering about how the housing right now is for boys.. I mean seriously.. are there no bad girls in the area? And if there are.. then where do they go??
It is my understanding that dual jurisdiction is set up for both males and females. So there should be no waiting to set up a place for her if they decide to use it for Alyssa. There is only one dual jurisdiction facility and that is the one at Montgomery City. It is suppose to be a secure facility with a fence around it. There are no fences around county jails where she is no doubt in her separate cell where she is waiting for trial. That's 2,3,4 years in a better place than prison. IMO she may as well spend that time at Montgomery City.
danni
You are reinforcing my inherent mistrust of strang
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http://www.dss.mo.gov/dys/pdf/djp021705.pdf
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...ri+dual+jurisdiction&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Here is a little bit of info about the Dual Jurisdiction process in Missouri.
To even be considered for the program you have to be UNDER 17, she will be 16 in less than a month.
I might get in trouble if I add MY OPINION, but I am sure you will come up with your own
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...ri+dual+jurisdiction&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Here is a little bit of info about the Dual Jurisdiction process in Missouri.
To even be considered for the program you have to be UNDER 17, she will be 16 in less than a month.
I might get in trouble if I add MY OPINION, but I am sure you will come up with your own
JLMcKenna83
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Missouri Division of Youth Services
BBM.. IMO
Let's hope they think that Alyssa was far too depraved to warrant this treatment.
BBM.. IMO
Let's hope they think that Alyssa was far too depraved to warrant this treatment.
I think the juvenile authorities knew the requirements when they brought it up in a news conference. I do not think county jails are the place to hold someone while waiting for trial. Most counties don't have that much money. So I would rather DYS have her for those years than the county jail especially with her mental issues. It's my opinion she has it better in the county jail than she would in Dual jurisdiction facility where she would have to answer to someone where she would be given things she had to do or answer by those in authority, which she said she didn't like. County jails are suppose to be for those who need jail time imposed not for people who belong in a secure longterm facility. If they agree to a plea bargain, they can have that done before she turns 17.
JLMcKenna83
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Where did you see that?
On Casenet
Prof
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Interesting, he just showed up on the dockets today in a motion for discovery, and even more interesting as a preliminary search for this new attorney shows a long history of working with defendants in Missouri with mental illness---or with alleged mental illness
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