MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

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Per CaseNet, her attorney is CATLETT , DONALD LEE , from Columbia. Anyone ever heard of him?
 
Very interesting material above re. psychopathy. Here's a quick question: let's say that AB is a psychopath. Let's say further that she was "born that way," did not choose it, cannot control it because she is structurally able to. Given a certain set of circumstances, she was bound to act out, and violently. In this sense, she is the moral equivalent of someone who is born with a physical or mental [plug in abnormality/ challenge here]. Then the question is something like this: how do we assign responsibility to this person and how (or not) do we hope to deal with or even eventually reintegrate her?
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Great thought and question Scapa! Again, I personally think that it is just so hard for some people to wrap their mind around the fact that some people, psychopaths for one, are unable to be helped. Whatever is missing, is missing. You can't medicate it back, therapy it back, work it back...it is GONE. And since it is gone, those people will always be a threat to society. Always. I'm just damn grateful this girl was caught this early because God only knows what depravity she would have come up with next...on someone elses child.
My heart does not bleed for AB, I don't feel sorry for her, or think that we as a society are responsible for her. Our only responsibility is to keep her locked away for the rest of her natural life. To do anything else would be our failure.

again...JMO.
 
vjlaw said:
I do not think county jails are the place to hold someone while waiting for trial.
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By law, they have to be. The Department of Corrections nor the Division of Youth Services can't take anyone that hasn't been convicted of a crime and sentenced to serve time with them.
 
danni said:
http://www.dss.mo.gov/dys/pdf/djp021705.pdf
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...ri+dual+jurisdiction&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Here is a little bit of info about the Dual Jurisdiction process in Missouri.
To even be considered for the program you have to be UNDER 17, she will be 16 in less than a month.
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JMHO, I cannot see DYS modifying or adding to one of their facilities to house her less than a year - especially not at 16.5 or older.

Even on the long shot that they do, she will be most likely be transferred to an adult facility after a very short stay.
 
Catlett -"an experienced public defender who had represented several defendants with mental problems.: http://www.law.cornell.edu/usca/search/index.html?query=495 AND 33 AND Missouri

Here's a news article on the same case as mentioned in the Cornell Law opinion above
http://www.pitch.com/2005-06-09/news/blood-simple/4/addComment

Here is an article that he co-authored http://www.mobar.org/e4cace40-4d6b-4acd-a237-127ee910688c.aspx

Another case of his: 1998 "Alis Ben Johns" tried in Pulaski County

I wonder how he got involed in AB's case?
 
Bibliophile said:
By law, they have to be. The Department of Corrections nor the Division of Youth Services can't take anyone that hasn't been convicted of a crime and sentenced to serve time with them.
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That still doesn't mean they are equipped to handle someone like Ab for as long as 2,3,4 yrs. Thats just my opinion. I still don't know why the whole dual jurisdiction topic was even brought up by the juvenile authorities if it wasn't a possiblity. Dual Jurisdiction is suppose to be set up for both male and female. I still don't believe that the county jail should be used to house people waiting for who knows how many years until trial. Doesn't mean they have the personnel equipped to handle someone with mental illness. I not under the assumption that the county jail is worse place than the facility at Montgomery City. Sitting around reading magazines for the next few years can'tt be any worse than being in the dual jurisdiction facility where someone is trying to get her to conform to a regimine. jmo
 
Prof said:
Catlett -"an experienced public defender who had represented several defendants with mental problems.: http://www.law.cornell.edu/usca/search/index.html?query=495 AND 33 AND Missouri

Here's a news article on the same case as mentioned in the Cornell Law opinion above
http://www.pitch.com/2005-06-09/news/blood-simple/4/addComment

Here is an article that he co-authored http://www.mobar.org/e4cace40-4d6b-4acd-a237-127ee910688c.aspx

Another case of his: 1998 "Alis Ben Johns" tried in Pulaski County

I wonder how he got involed in AB's case?
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Csquare mentioned in his posting that the PD Jan King didn't file the motion to have her hospitilized appropriately. Just wondered if this guy stepped in pro bono. Maybe because King didn't get the motion right, someone decided it may not be a good idea to continue with him. jmo
 
but if Catlett IS a PD? (I am clueless on this)

(I have found quite a few articles on cases he's had his hands in--developmentally disabled, drug addicts, mentally ill, etc, or is that the typical client of the PD? again clueless)
 
vjlaw said:
Csquare mentioned in his posting that the PD Jan King didn't file the motion to have her hospitilized appropriately. Just wondered if this guy stepped in pro bono. Maybe because King didn't get the motion right, someone decided it may not be a good idea to continue with him. jmo
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If the motion wasn't handled properly, the court would tell him and allow him to refile.

King would have to withdraw from the case, someone couldn't simply step in in his place as AB's attorney.
 
Doesn't Jan King have to file a motion to withdraw? Can you have 2 PD's on the case? Or a PD and a pro-bono attorney?


ETA: Andres answered while I was typing
 
JLMcKenna83 said:
Doesn't Jan King have to file a motion to withdraw? Can you have 2 PD's on the case? Or a PD and a pro-bono attorney?

ETA: Andres answered while I was typing
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BBM!

This is what I too was wondering.
 
JLMcKenna83 said:
Doesn't Jan King have to file a motion to withdraw? Can you have 2 PD's on the case? Or a PD and a pro-bono attorney?


ETA: Andres answered while I was typing
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To clarify, he can withdraw at any time, doesn't need to file a motion, and a PD would probably withdraw if another lawyer volunteered to take the case pro bono.
 
AndresEscobar said:
If the motion wasn't handled properly, the court would tell him and allow him to refile.

King would have to withdraw from the case, someone couldn't simply step in in his place as AB's attorney.
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The new attorney is listed as her attorney now on casenet. Jan King the PD, when the judge asked him at the Dec 8 arraignment if he wanted to bring up any motions, said he didn't. Maybe he knew a different lawyer would be handling things at that time. I am sure I don't know what happened.
 
AndresEscobar said:
To clarify, he can withdraw at any time, doesn't need to file a motion, and a PD would probably withdraw if another lawyer volunteered to take the case pro bono.
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At least until 2008, Catlett (new attorney filing on the case per Casenet) was referred to as a PD -- does it work the same if another PD volunteers?
 
Regarding the facilities for girls....I remember reading that MO does not have "secure" facilities for juvenile females....

only "house" type/campus type facilities....no real lock down

they said that Allyssa would be a danger there...too easy to escape...also could be a danger to the other girls

they apparently have only one "maximum" prison-like juvenile facility and it is for the "worst" of the boys

I think that Allysa is dangerous....she also has the ability to "fake" it....look how she was able to "blend in" at school, probably "fooled" her therapists

Maybe a mental hospital could "handle" her ?? I don't know
 
LogicalMinds said:
Regarding the facilities for girls....I remember reading that MO does not have "secure" facilities for juvenile females....

only "house" type/campus type facilities....no real lock down

they said that Allyssa would be a danger there...too easy to escape...also could be a danger to the other girls

they apparently have only one "maximum" prison-like juvenile facility and it is for the "worst" of the boys

I think that Allysa is dangerous....she also has the ability to "fake" it....look how she was able to "blend in" at school, probably "fooled" her therapists

Maybe a mental hospital could "handle" her ?? I don't know
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I thought they were referring to trying her as juvenile. For that, they would not have a secure place. The way I read it, Missouri's dual jurisdiction is suppose to be for both male and female.
 
vjlaw said:
I thought they were referring to trying her as juvenile. For that, they would not have a secure place. The way I read it, Missouri's dual jurisdiction is suppose to be for both male and female.
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Supposed to be...and "real world"....2 different things

they just don't have a "secure" place for female juveniles..

so the dual part will probably be the adult duel part of it...where she is now
locked up so she can't hurt other people (or herself)

they only have ONE "maximum" type facility for juveniles...males only
they apparently have some mid level place and then the other, more "campus" style places for boys

and for girls...I read that they only have the "campus" style facility
no fences....no locks on the bedroom doors (not really cells, more like a dorm)

which could be very unsafe for the young women in there with her
 
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