MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[danni]

Hi...just checking in..

has ANYONE found any info on how they "treat" sociopaths and how the success rate is measured??

I am very curious about that..thanks

If they have they sure ain't talkin are they?

 

[SewingDeb]

Hi...just checking in..

has ANYONE found any info on how they "treat" sociopaths and how the success rate is measured??

I am very curious about that..thanks

I'm still looking but I've found a little information:

One basic challenge in treating APD is that the patient typically does not believe he has a problem. The outward personality is often magnetic and charming, not only defending and rationalizing behavior, but often believing the behavior works for him. A grandiose attitude towards the self with a sense of superiority makes the average psychopath believe he is smarter than everyone, including doctors. Many with APD end up in treatment programs only because they are pressured by family members or mandated by court order.

A second basic challenge in treatment is that mental health care is based upon trusting relationships built between doctors and patients. Sociopathy, by its nature, limits the viability and in some cases the feasibility of such a relationship, as sociopaths often lack the ability to develop close relationships. They can, however, mimic these behaviors. Doctors and clinicians are also subject to manipulation by the sociopath, believing a patient is improving when he’s merely saying what the therapist wants to hear. Even allowing for corroborative feedback from third parties, the lying, manipulative nature of the sociopath throws into question feedback commonly used to plan new treatments, gauge effectiveness in long-term follow up studies, and strategize ongoing research.

Treatment for psychopathy or sociopathy is individualized on a case-by-case basis — there is no “one size fits all” approach. A doctor must consider the patient’s specific diagnosis, his or her age, medical history, physical health, environment, and a range of other factors. If additional diseases are present such as alcoholism, depression, or schizophrenia, successfully treating these can, in some cases, help the individual normalize enough to exert more control over behavioral problems associated with APD, possibly minimizing its effects.

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-is-sociopathy-treated.htm

and

From an interview with Dr. Martin Binder concerning a case of a 6 year old sociopath:

Blinder: The most impressive results I have seen in treating sociopaths, or sociopaths in the making, was the approach they take in Denmark, where rather than simply locking them up, they put them in a controlled setting. And every time there's an infraction of the rules, however slight, they lose a privilege, a small privilege. And every time they do something right, they are rewarded with a chip that they can trade in for things that they want--more television time, cigarettes, whatever the case may be, maybe an extra half hour out on the basketball court.

And by doing this round the clock, all the time, reinforcing their minding their p's and q's, punishing those times where they slip, you begin to re-alter their makeup.

Now whether or not it actually impacts upon their genetic structure, I can't say, but at least, if you can't alter the genotype, you may be able to alter the phenotype so their behavior changes. And they have an excellent record in individuals who, heretofore, were constantly getting into trouble with the law.

And after they graduate, their incidence of recidivism and further criminal behavior drops. I am not aware of any formal setting that we have in this country, but certainly we have many places where disturbed youngsters can be treated, and they have people who are experienced in youngsters whose disturbance takes the form of conduct disorders. And they can get good results.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/little/interviews/blinder1.html

 

[dreamweaver]

SewingDeb:
Well, that is very interesting. Thanks for the link.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

. I've seen people protecting her before, but what struck me about this particular instance was that this person intimated that the reason Alyssa should be given sympathy was that she is "Autistic."

Anyways, did anyone else see that post? And hypothetically speaking, I wonder how if a crime like this was committed by someone with either full-blown Autism, or ever Asperber's syndrome, how that might affect the case. Could it? Should it?

One of my kits is on the autism spectrum. There is NOTHING I have read about Alyssa's actions, personality, or demeanor that is in keeping with an autism spectrum disorder. On the contrary, she appears to have an extensive social network among several different peer groups. That would be extremely difficult for a child with an autism spectrum disorder.

It would also be very atypical for someone with an autism spectrum disorder to engage in a crime against another person. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but statistically it's non-existent.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

might to a child with serious and for the most part, untreated emotional damage like Alyssa(IMO))—be all it takes for them to snap effectively. Because of that, Alyssa deserves a chance to redeem herself and she owes that to Elizabeth IMO. I have a feeling that over the years she's been made to feel pretty worthless, unwanted, and has felt deep in her heart for a long time that she's a burden and a bad kid. I could be wrong, but what we know at least suggests otherwise.

bbm

my apologies... i do have a very small mouse brain... but i believe there has been court testimony that alyssa has received extensive treatment for her emotional issues. she was hospitalized for a short period and has extensive... what was the term? near daily? follow up therapy sessions.

as for her being made to feel worthless, unwanted, a burden... she's been in the custody of her grandparents since she was seven years old. since she was born when her mother was only 15, it is likely the grandparents were very involved in her life prior to getting full custody of her. i have seen nothing that even insinuates that her grandparents were poor guardians or inflicted any sort of emotional or mental harm on the children. i *have* seen them accused of what could be termed "benign neglect"; assuming all was well in the wholesome outdoors of the rural midwest... but nothing more than that.

on the contrary, it appears the grandparents willingly uprooted themselves for these children, built a large home for them, bought horses (an expensive indulgence), provided at least alyssa with a personal cell phone (ok, maybe all the kids have them but my 13 yo kit doesn't), had them active in church, etc.

indeed... having myself been raised by rats, i would have given anything to have the lifestyle, and "benign neglect", that alyssa enjoyed.

 

[gliving]

Jodibug, any chance you could get a copy of the latest Red and Black?

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/12/18/news_local/nt013local05redblack09.txt

snipped from article:

"Young journalists tackle 9-year-old's murder, charges against classmate under new direction

First came the announcement of fellow classmate Alyssa Bustamante being charged in the murder of 9-year-old Elizabeth Olten. Then came the untimely suicide of Red and Black adviser Bill Currie.

"From the beginning, Currie told us this (Olten murder) was something we would have to cover," said managing editor Hilary Weaver. "I talked to him Sunday (the day before he died), and we talked about what angle we were going to take on the issue." After Currie's Oct. 26 death, the staff was left without an adviser."

 

[eyes4crime]

If you're interested - I have taken the following case study from Duane L. Dobbert's book: Psychopathy, Perversion, and Lust Homicide
Edmund Kemper - born 1948

Edmund kemper around 10yo began mutilating his sister's dolls and torturing the family cat. He was cruel toward his siblings.

At 13yo he was sent to live with his paternal grandparents in North Folk California; his behavior did not improve.

August, 1964 16-year-old Edmund argued with his grandmother and shot her in the head with his .22 caliber rifle that he received from his grandfather.
(He later told police he killed his grandmother to see what it felt like to kill someone).

Edmund turned his rifle on his grandfather as he pulled in the driveway and shot and murdered him.
(He told police he didn't want his Grandfather to see his murdered wife).

Edmund was prosecuted for the murders and sent to a forensic psychiatric facility, Atascadaro State Hospital, located in California. He was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. A high intelligence allowed him to work as an assistant to the clinical staff

He was released at age 21 (1969).

Pursuant to conditions of release he attended and graduated from a local community college. His career interest was law enforcement. He exceeded the height for attending the police academy so he just hung around LE.

He was a 'huge' guy with a gentle demeanor and was nicknamed 'Big Ed' by LE.

"Big Ed' picked up many girls hitchhiking and perfected his techniques before attempting his first abduction and assault.

...May 1972, he picked up two Fresno College students - murdered both girls. Big Ed photographed, decapitated, and dismembered the bodies. Placed the body parts in plastic bags and buried them in different locations in the mountains.
...September 14, a 15yo dance student was murdered, raped, and decapitated. He kept the head.
...Early 1973, shot and murdered a college student and took her body back to his room to have sex with the corpse.
...Feb. 5th, 1973 two more college students were shot in the head, dismembered, and thrown in a remote area.
...Easter weekend 1973, Kemper murdered his mother. He decapitated her and raped her lifeless corpse.
...Later that day he invited his mother's friend over for a suprise dinner, she was raped, decapitated, and strangled.

He was charged with 8 counts of 1st degree murder.

Despite being diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia following the murder of his grandparents, Kemper was found competent at the time of the 8 murders. Court appointed psychiatrists found him free of mental defect and fully cognizant that his conduct was wrong and against the law.

November 8, 1973, Kemper was found guilty of 8 counts of premeditated murder and sentenced to life imprisonment.

Just to add a note: Atascadaro is a forensic psychiatric facility that has an intense focus on individual and group psychotherapy and diagnostic assessment.

Seems like therapy wasn't very effective for psychopath, Mr. Kemper. mho
ETA: As far as I know, schizophrenia is a life-long disease - there is no cure. this had to have been a mis-diagnosis. mho

One last ETA (taken from TruCrime - serial killers, The Coed Butcher): The day after he killed Aiko Koo, Kemper went before a panel of psychiatrists as a follow-up requirement for parole. Hed done well in school, had tried finding a job, and as far as anyone knew, he had stayed out of trouble. He knew what they wanted to hear and he put on his best act. The first doctor talked with him for a while and indicated that he saw no reason to consider Kemper a danger to anyone. The second one actually used the words normal and safe, according to Cheney. Both recommended the sealing of his juvenile records as a way to help him to become a better citizen. Yet even as the two psychiatrists congratulated themselves on being part of a system that had rehabilitated a child killer, Kemper delighted in his secret. Damio writes that not only had killed a girl the day before the analysis, but he had her head in the trunk of his car outside, which Kemper disputes.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

Eyes4crime... very interesting! And, imo, it re-iterates the fact that you can't possibly know if someone with a condition like this is "cured"!

 

[danni]

Eyes4crime... very interesting! And, imo, it re-iterates the fact that you can't possibly know if someone with a condition like this is "cured"!

Like cancer, it might be in remission today but tomorrow it may rear its ugly head. It can never be considered cured.

Remission, the state of absence of disease activity in patients with a chronic illness, with the possibility of return of disease activity.
A cure is a completely effective treatment for a disease.

I THINK!!!!! Medication may put people with mental desease in remission, yet they will never be cured, and if they ever even for a day go off of those medications they run the risk of being right back where they started.

 

[Prof]

http://www.colecountycourts.com/courtnews.htm

New entries on AB case

12-17-09 Accused's Supplemental Request for Discovery
12-17-09 Entry of Appearance filed by Donald Catlett and Charles Moreland

They work together and publish together evidently -- both listed as attorneys for the Johns (Alis Ben) case

 

[revampz]

Hi...I think Alyssa is a sociopath and I think in todays society there are a lot of them...millions......in fact for the last 5 years I have had a 16 year old stepdaughter who I beleive is a sociopath as well..

I have been to counsellors and psychiatrists to try and help deal with me dealing with her.......in fact until they are adults they say they have "conduct disorder".......

Since this girl came into my life I have had numerous discussions with other people both from her generation and older and in fact have become quite fascinated with the changes in societies values and morals.

Just about everyone I have spoken to agrees that the rising divorce rate and breakdown of the nuclear family has created generations of children with personality problems..

Alot of people say that sociopaths are born that way......then a new word needs to be invented for these kids/now young adults that are developing these personality disorders (very similar to sociopaths) because of their family situations...

To give you an idea of what I mean I use my stepdaughters situation.....mum had 4 kids to 4 different dads and left each man (usually with alot of conflict) and dragged the kids onto the next "daddy".......this was done without care for what was best for the children but for her selfish purposes (mostly got bored of them or a better one came along). I dont beleive she was really in love with any of them but maybe the first one but she was a woman who did not think she could survive without a man....

Needless to say the relationships with the fathers were then not as they should be.....in my step daughters case it was completely destroyed and he did not see her for 7 years....these men move on and marry again and have other children/families.....

These kids are not loved as they should be...I am sure they are loved but their security of knowing they have a loving mum and dad is not 100 percent..

In my SD's case she had 2 new dads and even though mum gave them everything, there was always a new man on the scene or problems with a man and the kids were put second while she was either in love or sorting out or leaving a man.....

The kids know this and they become hard little survivors........I have met quite a few of them....they basically look out for themselves and put them selves first and seem to lose that empathy for others.....like I said they become hard.

SD would lie, steal, cheat to get through life, but what use to floor me was the lack of guilt or empathy towards those she was stealing from or lying to or hurting........she just didnt care....

As I have said before I think there are millions of these kids because of the family breakdown and this rising crime rate amongst teenagers and children is showing this...not only that but the amount of kids that are being killed and abused by mummys new boyfriend/husband is disguisting......

Also just to add to why I think Alyssa did this...

I beleive she hated Elizabeth......I read a couple of times in these posts that there had been issues between the two...I would love for a local to come on here and let us know if there was problems between them.

I think this hatred was the ignition.........unfortunately Alyssa had emotional problems and took it much much much further than a normal teenager would.

 

[Kateyes]

SewingDeb and Eyesforcrime - Your posts were great. One thing I wanted to add is another reason for why sociopaths are not amenable to treatment. In order for counseling to be successful one must have the ability to be insightful into their own behavior. As SewingDeb pointed out sociopaths believe it is the other person, persons, the world, etc who has the problem. It is never them with the problem, always someone or something else. Without insight into one's own behavior change cannot occur. I vividly remember being taught this by one of my psychiatric nursing professors while I was in my psychiatric nursing internship.

Eyesforcrime - thanks for posting the story about Big Ed. It is one of the worst of such cases, but by no means the only one. When I was still living in Orlando, Florida a man and his older aunt were found dead in her garage. Turns out he had killed his wife before leaving the Keys, was ultimately found responsible for the murder of a prostitute in the Keys, and suspected of several other murders. This man had killed his pregnant mother in the prescence of his father when he was somewhere around the age of 12 to 14. The baby his mother carried also died from the knife attack. He was sent to a treatment facility and released when he was an adult. His wife never knew of his past, according to her family who spoke after her death. In fact, no one seemed to know about him,and many of his current friends voiced doubts that he could have done any of the crimes. But he did. His name was Charlie Brandt, and his own father would have nothing to do with him after his release from the juvenile facility where he was held.

I wish the reality of the situation were different, but a number of cases like these point to the wisdom that these young perpetrators never be released into society. I am going to find a link about Charlie Brandt and post it here as soon as I can.

 

[Kateyes]

I found a very comprehensive article re: Charlie Brandt. My memory did not serve me correctly in a couple of details. First, Charlie did not kill his wife in the keys - instead she traveled with him to Orlando. Second, it was not his aunt that he killed but his wife's niece, Michelle Jones. Charlie and his wife Teri traveled from the Keys to Orlando to stay with Michelle, who was Teri's niece through her sister. The article may be found at the following link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/25/48hours/main1655084.shtml

 

[eyes4crime]

Eyes4crime... very interesting! And, imo, it re-iterates the fact that you can't possibly know if someone with a condition like this is "cured"!

ETA: I agree! Very doubtful there is any cure for a socio/psycho murderer who begins at an early age. Seems that therapy only makes the psycho more intelligent as a criminal. mho
I posted this particular case study for several reasons:

...I was amazed at how young his sociopathic/psychopathic symptoms began to emerge. Interesting he dismembered his sister's dolls and later on dismembered his victims. YIKES!
...I found it interesting that the reason for murdering his grandma was because 'he wanted to know what it felt like to murder someone', an explanation almost identical to that of Alyssa and other child murderers.
...this case exemplified how tentative a diagnosis can be. The diagnosis of 'paranoid schizophrenia' had to have been wrong - the second diagnostic tests did not show ANY mental illness that interfered with his judgement. Paranoid schizophrenia is a life long disease - not here for 5 years and than cured!
...children who murdered were unheard of at that time - people insisted he receive intensive therapy and work through the problems he had with mom (similiar to the world of today). mho

I'm highly doubtful that therapy, of any kind, can rid a child or adult of murderous fantasies and impulses. Once a person has experienced the power and control that goes along with murder, sadism, sexual or otherwise, can that high ever be erased? mho

 

[LogicalMinds]

Thanks for all this info...very enlightning !! Scary to think of these "juveniles" who get out at 21 and go on to murder again and again

this is one of the strongest reasons that they need to try Allyssa as an adult

the "Danish" study is also interesting....but I do wonder...those are sociopathic kids who have not yet crossed the line of murdering (a human)??

Perhaps there are some ways to "train" or "contain" the sociopaths who have not yet murdered...but once they do I am not sure you can put the "evil genie" back in the jar??

On that "forum" for sociopaths with Dr Roberts (?) I did read a guy who has posted that he doesn't have feelings/empathy/sympathy...but he does "contain" himself cause he remembers/knows the legal ramifications...
I don't think he thinks about murder but he wants to punch people in the face and stuff like if a clerk is "slow" or driver cuts him off....but he doesn't as he doesn't want to go to prison...so I guess at some (early) level they can learn reward/punishment

but I personally think that Allyssa and Michael are too far gone

 

[eyes4crime]

Thanks for all this info...very enlightning !! Scary to think of these "juveniles" who get out at 21 and go on to murder again and again

this is one of the strongest reasons that they need to try Allyssa as an adult

the "Danish" study is also interesting....but I do wonder...those are sociopathic kids who have not yet crossed the line of murdering (a human)??

Perhaps there are some ways to "train" or "contain" the sociopaths who have not yet murdered...but once they do I am not sure you can put the "evil genie" back in the jar??

On that "forum" for sociopaths with Dr Roberts (?) I did read a guy who has posted that he doesn't have feelings/empathy/sympathy...but he does "contain" himself cause he remembers/knows the legal ramifications...
I don't think he thinks about murder but he wants to punch people in the face and stuff like if a clerk is "slow" or driver cuts him off....but he doesn't as he doesn't want to go to prison...so I guess at some (early) level they can learn reward/punishment

but I personally think that Allyssa and Michael are too far gone

The case study posted on the last page tells us we don't know anything about children who murder. We don't know how to diagnosis, treat, and predict future violence. I feel tremendous ambivalence regarding Alyssa - she is just a child, young and intelligent, with her whole life in front of her. What a shame to put this child in prison to become even more hardened and manipulative. I say let Alyssa be studied in a high security forensic hospital and let's figure out where the violent impulses and fantasies originate and why! MOO

I agree with you - that at some level a sociopath can learn reward and punishment; the white collar sociopath is one example. Maybe there is a continuum of sociopathy, with child violence being the most dangerous and and least likely to be erased via therapy and/or medication. MOO

 

[LogicalMinds]

eyes4crime....I do think there is a "curve" or a degree to the dyamics of the "sociopath"..

the book "The Sociopath Next Door" gives insights that are interesting

beyond the ones that make headlines there are probably many other people who share these traits...just in a lesser degree....they cause their own pain and confusion..but refrain from killing people

I think a girl who dated my (late) cousin was surely one...she took advantage of him
she had a car loan co-signed by her uncle and they repossessed it and she ruined his credit
her roommate went to jail due to a party/drugs in their house..but she "got away" right before the cops came....and while her roomate was in jail she sold her things and even took her dog to the pound...we went and got the dog out

she worked in health care..and managed to never get in legal trouble, but others around her always did. She didn't ruin her own credit but ruined other people's...my cousin finally got wise when she used HIS credit card on a "spree"

finally (thank heavens) my cousin broke up with her, but much to my NON surprise I saw her name in the "local" crime section here years later...she was accused of using 2 people on SSI...taking their checks, using their checkbooks, credit card or whatever, selling their things...and "elder abuse"...seems she was working as a caregiver again...for a disabled family

did she kill people?? NO....but I think she has no sense of guilt or caring or any feeling for anyone
she was "cute" and had a funny sense of humor...people mostly liked her
she liked to entertain and liked to cook
....she made great guacamole LOL
one reason my cousin broke up with her (besides the credit card) was he told me that she told him she "ran over a cat" while driving (speeding) home from the nursing home she worked at...she had no sense of guilt or shame or sorrow...said it went "splat"

I have never forgotten that....thinking about her gives me chills
now when I look back on it, I wonder what else she did working in a nursing home
maybe she took that sort of job so she could be around vulnerable people

think of all sociopath guys...abusive, never caring....and women go nutz trying to please them or "understand them"...not all of them murder
some of them just ruin people's lives slowly

they seem to totally lack the "guilt' factor....

I agree they are far far from being "autistic"...but like autism there is no "one size fits all"...there is a "spectrum" of sociopaths...or a variable degree....
some are the garden variety....just mean and abusive and uncaring
others escalate to smaller financial crimes and hurtful actions
some are like Bernie Maddox....big time financial crimes
some do other crimes
some might murder...look at the Josh /Susan Powell thread..
Scott Peterson....Drew Peterson...etc

and some...maybe the scariest...start young...as kids.."just to see what it feels like"

<<shiver>>>

 

[UnicornTears]

This was a rumor brought to Websleuths by a local -- the rumor came the day of the arrest... -- and it was going around that the perp was a school bully and several grades behind on this thread http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90695&page=6
(I think that is the only time I heard that, and we discovered that AB was not behind in school)

To contradict the "slow" rumor, we have the testimony from court stating that she was a good student, and a report of some award earned for students with a high GPA -- IMO this would not contradict your rumor

I remember the thread you referenced, but the one I saw was almost positively on a local news station's website, or at least not a website that dealt specifically with crime related content. I'll keep searching, but right now I'm wondering if it hasn't been removed for one reason or another...

IDK but I would think that if she had any form of Autism it would have been brought up in court---

IDK either, but it seems like the court would have to keep some information under wraps to prevent potential contamination of the prospective jury pool. I don't know what kind of information about AB is going to be admissible or not. I was a juror in a murder case a few years back and was surprised at the types of information that we were and weren't allowed access to when we were deciding the case. In that particular case, knowing the things we weren't privy to till after we'd made our decision wouldn't have significantly changed the outcome of the case, but it makes me wonder with the issue of Autistic Spectrum Disorder; would the jury be allowed access to that information if it existed? IDK.

Do we have any legal experts here that could weigh in on that question?

 

[LogicalMinds]

Hi Unicorn..

I am sure no expert...but I honestly do NOT think that Allyssa is on the autism "spectrum"...

My bad to use that word...I like the word "continuum" that eyes4crime used..

to mean : degrees of "sociopathy"..

I think it would be hard to find even a high functioning "Aspie" child with Allysa's degree of social skills JMO

As for the "legal" side I don't know....:::??

 

[Natal]

People with Aspergers can have social skills, what they lack is the ability to read other people properly (or transmit those signals to others) which results in their behaviour often seeming odd or inappropriate. The effects are most pronounced when they are younger - as they get older they "learn" some of those abilities from observation and practice, but never really as well as "normal" people.

High functioning autism isn't the same as Aspergers btw.