MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

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One of my kits is on the autism spectrum.

I'm sorry to hear that.

It would also be very atypical for someone with an autism spectrum disorder to engage in a crime against another person. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but statistically it's non-existent.

It's true that crimes of any kind, especially homicide, committed by those diagnosed with one form of ASD or another, are, statistically speaking, extremely rare. Several factors in this case are atypical though—not the least of which is that this was a brutal murder committed by a female under the age of 18, yet such crimes are disturbingly on the rise; that strangulation was part of, if not the CoD is even more so atypical.

I have a hunch that as this case further develops, the unusual nature of it all may not stop with just those facts.

There is NOTHING I have read about Alyssa's actions, personality, or demeanor that is in keeping with an autism spectrum disorder. On the contrary, she appears to have an extensive social network among several different peer groups. That would be extremely difficult for a child with an autism spectrum disorder.

ASD itself is remarkable in it's phenotypic plasticity, which is why it's a "spectrum" in that it doesn't necessarily follow a predictable continuum. In this article, originally posted on the Clinical Psychiatry News website, Madelon Baranoski, Ph.D., of the department of psychiatry at Yale University, New Haven, Conn. says, "if you have seen one person with Asperger's, you've seen one person with Asperger's" meaning that every case is different, and sometimes significantly so. The whole article is here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_4_37/ai_n31616395/. Mild forms of ASD don't—as far as I'm aware—preclude or prohibit a person from having friends; it's just that because of the nature of the syndrome, social skills are interfered with to such a degree that maintaining friendships can be difficult or impossible in some cases. The degree of social-disability fall along a quite broad spectrum from one end of it—a near complete inability to relate socially, to the other end—where it's difficult for all but specialists in Autism to detect; if AB were any of those degrees it would be the latter. JMO.

Thinking of some of the more well known characteristics of ASD—like the difficulty they have behaving appropriately in social situations—it reminded me of how one of AB's close relatives had remarked on their Myspace page that AB "thinks everything is hers", in reference to an incident when AB had taken this persons prom dress without permission, and was walking around the house wearing it.

Another argument that could lend support to the theory of ASD-like symptomology in her would be the fact that AB repetitively cut herself, was preoccupied with people getting hurt, and ultimately acted upon a growing fixation of experiencing the act of killing—as evidenced by the methodical digging of graves, the stalking, murder and burying of EO. While those facts in themselves are indicative of pre-meditative homicidal intent stemming from some other form of psychopathology, they could also correlate closely with the observed characteristics of ASD, IMO. But as I said before I'm not an expert. These are just my opinions.

The only part of that behavior that is atypical of ASD, IMO, would be violence as the focus of repetition and fixation. The repetitive behaviors are still there, the prolonged fixation on a single subject is there, as is the inappropriate social behavior. Those are just things we know. Who knows what else might support that theory.

Hypothetically speaking and IMO, if AB is ASD to some degree, that might also explain why, rather than a safer SSRI, she'd been prescribed Prozac—because of it's ability to quell repetitive behaviors. If she was on the mild side of the spectrum, it might be difficult for anyone but a specialist in Autism to tell the difference between her and many of her other peers. As smart as she apparently is—someone even called her "gifted"—it's possible she might be able to hide what would otherwise have been some of the more overt signs of the disorder from professionals.

It's understandable why at AB's age it might be difficult to make such a diagnosis; at a time in her life when a good deal of her peers are exhibiting signs of sometimes marked emotional instability, depression, angst, social-awkwardness, and doing and saying inappropriate things. If you look at some of these kids Myspace pages, there's a wealth of examples that would disturb and shock you probably even more than the things that AB had posted on hers.

Granted, if this rumor ended up being substantiated, it would be highly unusual. But as you no doubt are aware, there are many things that the psychiatric community does not know about ASD. And when it comes to assessing what types of criminal behavior people suffering from this disorder might exhibit, the data there is all but non-existent. Psychiatry in general can hardly be considered an exact science especially when dealing with Autism Spectrum; what works for one patient may not work for another, as is the case with many other disorders. Handling a case involving these kinds of issues, one can see how legal council would be having a very hard time figuring out how to proceed.

Also, it was never my intention of proving AB has Asperger's syndrome or any other ASD. This was just a hypothetical I posed based on the existence of a comment someone who claimed to be a close friend of AB's had made about her being Autistic. It seemed so odd to me that of all the things someone could or would want to fabricate, AB having an ASD was highly unlikely to be one of them without it having some basis in fact. That's why I started thinking about how, in the event the rumor is ever substantiated, it might potentially relate to the case.

Finally, I'm by no means excusing what AB did. Even if she was proven to have this disorder, it would rightfully warrant her being institutionalized for the rest of her life, or at least until such time as it could be safely determined that she was no longer a threat to society, if such a time could ever be determined. And I assure you, the fact that Elizabeth is no longer with us has not been lost on me. It's hard to come across pictures of her without thinking how horrible all this is, and how sad EO's friends and family must be at this time of year with Christmas coming up to not have her with them to celebrate. The thought that there will be a stocking missing and a spot under the tree that would have been hers literally tears me up inside. But for me that's exactly the reason I need to make sense of this and so EO doesn't just disappear from our minds as a statistic.
 
The case study posted on the last page tells us we don't know anything about children who murder. We don't know how to diagnosis, treat, and predict future violence. I feel tremendous ambivalence regarding Alyssa - she is just a child, young and intelligent, with her whole life in front of her. What a shame to put this child in prison to become even more hardened and manipulative. I say let Alyssa be studied in a high security forensic hospital and let's figure out where the violent impulses and fantasies originate and why! MOO

I agree with you - that at some level a sociopath can learn reward and punishment; the white collar sociopath is one example. Maybe there is a continuum of sociopathy, with child violence being the most dangerous and and least likely to be erased via therapy and/or medication. MOO

Sociopaths learn behaviors that allow them to continue to manipulate people and get their way. one cannot teach sympathy, empathy, and guilt. Sociopaths NEVER develop the sence of right and wrong that 'normal' members of society. They see right and wrong as "If I want it, it is right. If I don't want it, it is wrong." Sociopaths at best can learn to mimic the behaviours that the rest of society use when conveying sadness, guilt, and forgiveness. They can NOT learn to actually feel these and appreciate their meaning. No matter whether 15 or 95.
 
Sociopaths learn behaviors that allow them to continue to manipulate people and get their way. one cannot teach sympathy, empathy, and guilt. Sociopaths NEVER develop the sence of right and wrong that 'normal' members of society. They see right and wrong as "If I want it, it is right. If I don't want it, it is wrong." Sociopaths at best can learn to mimic the behaviours that the rest of society use when conveying sadness, guilt, and forgiveness. They can NOT learn to actually feel these and appreciate their meaning. No matter whether 15 or 95.

Sounds to me like you have read Dr. Robert Hare and his theories of psychopathy. I agree - the fact there is no empathy, guilt, anxiety resulting in no conscience is a given in psychopathy. mho If no empathy is a given I wonder if the violence factor is what the continuum or differences is all about. We know there are psychopaths who do not murder and vary in the chaos they provoke. Add the murderous impulses and fantasies and you have a psychopathic murderer. Maybe there are two spectrums of psychopathy we need to be looking at. moo
 
In doing a little more reading on the net, I learned that SOME sociopaths learn how to "mimic" reactions that the rest of us have...
like they will cry at a funeral cause they see others crying

and SOME of these sociopaths will mostly follow the law....because they have realized that they don't wish to be locked up....they still may NOT see that it would be "wrong" to just haul off and punch some one in the face BUT they learn to NOT do that so as to NOT go to jail

they still have no sense of right/wrong/guilt/empathy/sympathy....just that most/many of them control and conform to society..and only work their misery on people close to them (ie, the girl I spoke of who ruined her uncles credit with a repo'd car etc)

Not all sociopaths are murderers (probably most aren't)....and not all murderers are sociopaths (for instance a murder committed out of jealousy...or twisted love...is not something a sociopath would even feel)

Another thing about sociopaths...they do have seem to have a good sense of self preservation (which is why they aren't usually able to use the rare insanity defense)...

This was really a big factor in the actual trial of Michael Hernandez...."how" he picked his actual victim.....he had plans to murder 2 others but they were bigger, stronger...

He admitted he chose Jaime cause he was small, shy, non athletic, looked up to him,
and that he would be "easy"

I think eventually this will factor in for Allyssa also at trial ...poor Elizabeth was younger, smaller....and probably "easy"

Austisic? Aspie?? I am no expert but I just don't see it

the ONLY thing that might be alike is that some of those kids have to learn to recognize emotions, or perhaps sometimes "mimic" emotions....and as a skilled sociopath Allyssa would also have to "mimic" emotions

I think both Allyssa and Michael are simply sociopaths...
even a highly functioning Aspie would probably not be conventionally "popular" in high school...and these kids were popular

Sociopaths are often "popular"...they are likable, they do mimic what others feel....they are like chameleons in that they can find what a person wants and fulfill that...they are ruthless....and for teens they are pretty "cool"...
pushing boundaries....doing things like sneaking off to the concert might be considered "admirable" by her peers
 
Thanks Eyes4crime for the info on Dr Hare..
I looked up his website..interesting info there
he has a link to this good article in New York mag


the condition of moral emptiness that affects between fifteen to twenty-five per cent of the North American prison population, and is believed by some psychologists to exist in one per cent of the general adult male population. (Female psychopaths are thought to be much rarer.) Psychopaths don’t exhibit the manias, hysterias, and neuroses that are present in other types of mental illness. Their main defect, what psychologists call “severe emotional detachment”—a total lack of empathy and remorse—is concealed, and harder to describe than the symptoms of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. This absence of easily readable signs has led to debate among mental-health practitioners about what qualifies as psychopathy and how to diagnose it. Psychopathy isn’t identified as a disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the American Psychiatric Association’s canon; instead, a more general term, “antisocial personality disorder,” known as A.P.D., covers the condition.
Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/10/081110fa_fact_seabrook#ixzz0aKwECqTj


Seems they are finding "brain changes' in these people.. interesting info thanks
 
hi folks.i havent been around for awhile,,but i was reading sunday's paper and seen that there has been some "online patitions" about this case.it seems that some (many in fact) are patitioning to get AB released. Has anybody else heard of them? what do you think will come of them? and why in the world would ANYbody patition to let her go????other than stupidity,,JMO..
 
also,I noticed in the paper,,(but i lost it) that the state "big boys" as far as PBs go,,are takin over her case,,i read that they're very tuff,,very "effective"? i think they jump in when the state try's for the death penalty,,from what i read,although they c ant give her that,,they still stepped in. does anybody know anything about this group of people? how good are they? and how do ya think it will (if any) change the outcome of a trial,if there is one?
 
hi folks.i havent been around for awhile,,but i was reading sunday's paper and seen that there has been some "online patitions" about this case.it seems that some (many in fact) are patitioning to get AB released. Has anybody else heard of them? what do you think will come of them? and why in the world would ANYbody patition to let her go????other than stupidity,,JMO..

It's mostly a bunch of kids who are trying to make her their EMO hero. If it were me, I'd be signing one to keep her little rear end in jail!
 
also,I noticed in the paper,,(but i lost it) that the state "big boys" as far as PBs go,,are takin over her case,,i read that they're very tuff,,very "effective"? i think they jump in when the state try's for the death penalty,,from what i read,although they c ant give her that,,they still stepped in. does anybody know anything about this group of people? how good are they? and how do ya think it will (if any) change the outcome of a trial,if there is one?

Most of the cases that they've handled have to do with some sort of mental illness. They may be more well versed in the insanity defense than the cole county public defenders.. I think we can tell which way this trial will be heading just from those two attorneys becoming involved.
 
Most of the cases that they've handled have to do with some sort of mental illness. They may be more well versed in the insanity defense than the cole county public defenders.. I think we can tell which way this trial will be heading just from those two attorneys becoming involved.

thanks again,,let's just hope they aren't all that "tuff" or agressive..and "win" the case for her..i agree on the on the petition thing..your probly right,that its a bunch of kids..i read that one of them even signed on as "olten" probly a hoax, or another fake name like donald duck per say. and they said "please just forgive AB,,i did"..but ya know,,the sad part of it is,,EO probly HAS forgivin her..ofcorse,,that dont change my mind or anybody else that she's a cold blooded killer,and should be put away forever..JMO
 
thanks again,,let's just hope they aren't all that "tuff" or agressive..and "win" the case for her..i agree on the on the petition thing..your probly right,that its a bunch of kids..i read that one of them even signed on as "olten" probly a hoax, or another fake name like donald duck per say. and they said "please just forgive AB,,i did"..but ya know,,the sad part of it is,,EO probly HAS forgivin her..ofcorse,,that dont change my mind or anybody else that she's a cold blooded killer,and should be put away forever..JMO

IMO... Whoever signed that petition with Olten is a heartless SOB, who is no better than Alyssa. That's just disgusting.

Elizabeth may have forgiven her, however, I bet she still has all the same questions we do..

Why her? What did she ever do to be so brutally MURDERED by a "friend"? What the H-E-double hockey sticks is wrong with Alyssa?
 
Hi Unicorn..

I am sure no expert...but I honestly do NOT think that Allyssa is on the autism "spectrum"...

My bad to use that word...I like the word "continuum" that eyes4crime used..

to mean : degrees of "sociopathy"..

I think it would be hard to find even a high functioning "Aspie" child with Allysa's degree of social skills JMO

As for the "legal" side I don't know....:::??

After years of studying high-functioning autism, having an Aspie son, and being asked to participate in speaking engagements on the subject, I can promise you she is not autistic. Those who work with autistic people over time can spot people on the spectrum pretty quickly. The video she made of the "hot" fence alone shows me that she is not autistic.
 
After years of studying high-functioning autism, having an Aspie son, and being asked to participate in speaking engagements on the subject, I can promise you she is not autistic. Those who work with autistic people over time can spot people on the spectrum pretty quickly. The video she made of the "hot" fence alone shows me that she is not autistic.

Thanks for your insights Kimster :)


The hot fence...and pushing the brothers off the dive board seem to be truly sociopath type "fun"....

a symptom of a sociopath (from "The Sociopath Next Door" book)

They are seductive, encouraging others to take risks.
 
After years of studying high-functioning autism, having an Aspie son, and being asked to participate in speaking engagements on the subject, I can promise you she is not autistic. Those who work with autistic people over time can spot people on the spectrum pretty quickly. The video she made of the "hot" fence alone shows me that she is not autistic.


Absolutely agree.
 
Another argument that could lend support to the theory of ASD-like symptomology in her would be the fact that AB repetitively cut herself, was preoccupied with people getting hurt, and ultimately acted upon a growing fixation of experiencing the act of killing—as evidenced by the methodical digging of graves, the stalking, murder and burying of EO. While those facts in themselves are indicative of pre-meditative homicidal intent stemming from some other form of psychopathology, they could also correlate closely with the observed characteristics of ASD, IMO. But as I said before I'm not an expert. These are just my opinions.

The only part of that behavior that is atypical of ASD, IMO, would be violence as the focus of repetition and fixation. The repetitive behaviors are still there, the prolonged fixation on a single subject is there, as is the inappropriate social behavior. Those are just things we know. Who knows what else might support that theory.

Hypothetically speaking and IMO, if AB is ASD to some degree, that might also explain why, rather than a safer SSRI, she'd been prescribed Prozac—because of it's ability to quell repetitive behaviors. If she was on the mild side of the spectrum, it might be difficult for anyone but a specialist in Autism to tell the difference between her and many of her other peers. As smart as she apparently is—someone even called her "gifted"—it's possible she might be able to hide what would otherwise have been some of the more overt signs of the disorder from professionals.

Have you ever personally known anyone on the autism spectrum?

The examples you cite are not in keeping with ASD... and ASD is not something that can be hidden.
 
Interesting about the "mimic" aspect of sociopathy.

I remember reading a long time ago an interview done with Ted Bundy. He stated that even as a kid, he always felt like he didn't quite get it and he said that he would watch other peoples reactions that he was with to see how he was supposed to act. Whether it was crying, laughing, etc.
Of course Bundy also jerked around his interviewers alot and also yanked their chains on why he did what he did, but I do remember him saying that at one time. Whether it was true or not, who knows...
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again..

IMO.. The touching of the electric fence is not a sadist act. If we were to try and convict her or derive a conclusion of guilt at that act, then there are probably hundred's of thousands of people who would then be convicted. I've done it, I've talked several friends into doing it.. and I know about 30 people who have touched or peed or encouraged someone to do it. If you've grown up in the country or have been to a party where one happens to be, chances are.. you've tried it. They were kids.. it's a natural curiosity. Now, IMO, if she would have dragged her brothers over to the fence kicking and screaming and crying the whole way.. then FORCED them to touch it.. it would be a different story. But she didn't. It was basically her saying.. "Hey stupid.. why don't you touch that fence and see what happens?" If you look it up on youtube, you'll probably find 100's of videos of people doing it. Youtube search results for touching electric fence
 
The new lawyers in this case have me a bit scared. I fear that AB will serve minimal time in a juvenile facility then be released with a new name. Wherever she ends up the people around her will be unaware of who she is and her past. All that will have been down is forr AB to learn how to be more manipulative and deceptive. I sure hope that she NEVER has a child of her own. I hope I am very wrong but I think that this change cold be a bad thing for all who want to see justice for Elizabeth.
 
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