MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[AndresEscobar]

mia g, who said she deserves to be out in 5 years?

 

[eyes4crime]

Lets say this goes to trial.

What do yall think about a scenario where there are some jurors that have teenagers themselves ? Or maybe even a 15 yr old daughter ?

Do yall think AB would gain any sympathy by them ?

Just curious.

Here are my thoughts on your question:

If I were sitting on the jury and heard the prosecution say - 'Alyssa murdered Elizbeth because she wanted to know what it felt like to murder' - I would have little compassion, if any. The more children I had at home, I don't care what age, the more I would fear her. That is a very damaging statement! mho

If the defense can convince the judge to sequester that statement, she may have more of a chance with jurors with children.

The defense can present her as a child who has lost her way due to Prozac, depression, mental illness, and a chaotic childhood, but her admission that she wanted to know what it felt like to murder someone - does her in for sure. mho

 

[PAXIMUS]

Here are my thoughts on your question:

If I were sitting on the jury and heard the prosecution say - 'Alyssa murdered Elizbeth because she wanted to know what it felt like to murder' - I would have little compassion, if any. The more children I had at home, I don't care what age, the more I would fear her. That is a very damaging statement! mho

If the defense can convince the judge to sequester that statement, she may have more of a chance with jurors with children.

The defense can present her as a child who has lost her way due to Prozac, depression, mental illness, and a chaotic childhood, but her admission that she wanted to know what it felt like to murder someone - does her in for sure. mho

And that is precisely why such statements are never allowed to be introduced at trial because they are inflammatory and predjudicial that is to say that they inflame and make the jury immediately predjudiced towards the defendent which in turn makes it impossible for the jury to be impartial and take in to consideration all other facts. Therefore I would be very surprised especially with this new team of lawyers that she has, if that statement is not tossed out and ruled inadmissable in pre trial hearings and the jury will never hear it. And thats how it should be as evidenced by your own comment that if you were on a jury that statement alone would turn you away from AB in spite of what other facts may be introduced. Jurors who react in such a way are not impartial and are the reason 7 times out of 10 a mistrial is declared.

 

[not_my_kids]

Is it? I know little about autism, however, I do know that becoming very common. My mother is a elementary school teacher, and because our state follows a doctrine of inclusion, she has become an autism expert. I'll have to pick her brain about it.

Unless, you mean that she could use her autism as a defense would be laughable, then I would agree with you that it's not going to work.

The concept that she has it at all is laughable to me.
My son is autistic and so was my stepdad.

As a defense or in general...I would never buy it, and she would never get a diagnosis.

 

[PAXIMUS]

The concept that she has it at all is laughable to me.
My son is autistic and so was my stepdad.

As a defense or in general...I would never buy it, and she would never get a diagnosis.

Has there been a live interview with her that I have missed or are we basing the idea that she cannot possibly be autistic on the pictures we see of her in the newspaper?

 

[LogicalMinds]

Why even question if she is autistic?? It makes NO sense

there is no interview/news report/fact that ever even brought this up...

to me it is simply idle speculation ....probably from someone not even familiar with the "spectrum"

There are so many "cases"...no one asks if Scott Peterson is autistic, or if Ted Bundy was an "aspie"...and for good reason...there is NO indication that they are

In the Michael Hernandez case the defense claims he is schiozphrenic (tho there is no indication that he heard voices which is a key symptom of that).....OCD (yes, indications of that)

with Allyssa there was a diagnosis of depression...she had tried suicide....and also "cutting"....nothing that indicates autistic

we might well wonder if she was diabetic, color blind, and has tuberculosis...of course there is nothing to indicate any of that...but why not just put any idea out there?? I am sorry...people who have autistic kids are telling us facts...you can look at info on the web, there is simply nothing to say she would be autistic and that would not be a "defense" if she was JMO

 

[LogicalMinds]

Paximus....I don't see why you keep acting as if we are trying to get the "needle" for Allyssa...when we all know that is "off the table"....no death penalty for her, so why act as if that is possible?? It is not, not even worth discussing JMO

Also...I have posted a LOT of info about Michael Hernandez, who was 14 and 1 day when he began his stated career goal to be a serial killer....with NO prozac no nothing in him....he never had any sort of anti depressant, no psychotropic drugs at all...never went to a pschologist let alone a psychiatrist....and was NOT on drugs or alcohol , in fact he ate very healthy and exercised pretty "compulsively"

he simply wanted to kill people..and chose someone "easy" as his first

I have posted a lot of info...and there is a LOT of info out there....since this happened in Florida, where the sun shines and the sunshine laws allow anyone to see just about everything....the defense was not even able to keep his diary off the tv/net

what do you think of him???

 

[AndresEscobar]

btw, I was never suggesting being autistic could be a defense to anything.

I agree with Paximus, though, no one can definitively say whether or not she has anything without examining her. I'm not saying she's autistic, or a sociopath, or whatever. No one can diagnose her with having anything or claim she doesn't have anything based on a few youtube videos and her social media web profiles.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Paximus....I don't see why you keep acting as if we are trying to get the "needle" for Allyssa...when we all know that is "off the table"....no death penalty for her, so why act as if that is possible?? It is not, not even worth discussing JMO

Also...I have posted a LOT of info about Michael Hernandez, who was 14 and 1 day when he began his stated career goal to be a serial killer....with NO prozac no nothing in him....he never had any sort of anti depressant, no psychotropic drugs at all...never went to a pschologist let alone a psychiatrist....and was NOT on drugs or alcohol , in fact he ate very healthy and exercised pretty "compulsively"

he simply wanted to kill people..and chose someone "easy" as his first

I have posted a lot of info...and there is a LOT of info out there....since this happened in Florida, where the sun shines and the sunshine laws allow anyone to see just about everything....the defense was not even able to keep his diary off the tv/net

what do you think of him???

Yes I know all about your Michael Hernandez theory and I dont see the similarities myself, it is apples and oranges, he also didnt seem to have the volitle formative years that AB did which makes a big difference IMO. Her parents are meth addicts and yes she lived with her grandmother, but not her entire life and her formative years when she was developing her self identity it appears she was with the drug addicts.

 

[Kimster]

I honestly don't understand why anyone even wants to think she could be autistic. Autism has nothing to do with crime.

The vast majority of individuals with autism are law abiding and respect the rules of society. Indeed, in many cases, individuals with autism are unusually concerned to keep the letter of the law, due to the nature of the disability.<snipped>
http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=471&a=17728

I respect everyone's opinions, but even considering someone as disturbed as AB could be explained away with autism is unfair to the autistic, IMO. Sociopaths, psychopaths, attachment disorder and other behavior issues are commonly linked to crime, but NOT autism.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Yes I know all about your Michael Hernandez theory and I dont see the similarities myself, it is apples and oranges, he also didnt seem to have the volitle formative years that AB did which makes a big difference IMO. Her parents are meth addicts and yes she lived with her grandmother, but not her entire life and her formative years when she was developing her self identity it appears she was with the drug addicts.

Yeah, I agree. The Michael Hernandez connection seems tenuous at best. Despite that they are both children who killed other children, I don't see much there. The Michael Hernandez case also doesn't interest me; otherwise I would be discussing it in a Michael Hernandez forum.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I honestly don't understand why anyone even wants to think she could be autistic. Autism has nothing to do with crime.

The vast majority of individuals with autism are law abiding and respect the rules of society. Indeed, in many cases, individuals with autism are unusually concerned to keep the letter of the law, due to the nature of the disability.<snipped>
http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=471&a=17728

I respect everyone's opinions, but even considering someone as disturbed as AB could be explained away with autism is unfair to the autistic, IMO. Sociopaths, psychopaths, attachment disorder and other behavior issues are commonly linked to crime, but NOT autism.

I'm not attaching it to autism. I'm simply taking issue with people stating definitively that she doesn't have it. Because there's no way to know without having examined her, much less from the little bit of information we have.

 

[Kimster]

In lieu of allowing myself to get off topic with what I'd like to discuss, I created a thread regarding autism and criminal behavior in the private forum. Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Thanks Andres for explaining what you meant to me. You are right, you can't tell for sure. Still, I would fall over and faint if someone DXd her with autism from what I've seen.

 

[scapa]

I wonder whether the proximate cause of this murder -- the thing that made AB want to plan and carry out her plan if that is indeed how this crime went down -- might be this alleged empathy void, her inability to feel either for others or for herself. The depression, cutting, fantasies and role-playing (rehearsal with the knife among friends) all seem to share this theme -- that somewhere AB will feel something, and be changed. She may well have "gotten on" with her peers but there isn't much evidence of her forming deep attachments. It doesn't change the outcome but is it possible that this murder was the limit case of the things she might do that would produce some kind of feeling, positive affect or not?

It's a terrible thought, but I have a brother with APD, who is more or less functional now but was a hellish teenager, and did several absolutely terrible (though never lethal) things to himself and others because he was unable to feel as others did and he both craved and resented it. Lack of empathy, the inability to read others and imagine their subject position, is a common thread in quite a few of the disorders that have been mentioned in this thread, it seems to me.

best,

s

 

[AndresEscobar]

In lieu of allowing myself to get off topic with what I'd like to discuss, I created a thread regarding autism and criminal behavior in the private forum. Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Thanks Andres for explaining what you meant to me. You are right, you can't tell for sure. Still, I would fall over and faint if someone DXd her with autism from what I've seen.

I really can't say anything would surprise me.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I just think the "autism" idea has drawn us off the topic...someone "suggested" it...

I might also suggest that she "Might" have beri-beri or lyme disease or leprosy...just off the top of my head...nothing I have read or heard or seen, no news report tells me that...>I just thought of it...so let's consider it??

JMO >>> the relevant ideas here are ...some sort of sociopathy....attachment disorder...personality disorder....possible borderline personality disorder?? bi-polar PLUS something more??? combined with depression....

To rule out : she is not mentally disabled...her grades were average to good right??

So far no one has claimed she was schizophrenic....no reports she was hearing things or hallucinating

We don't KNOW what sort of "therapy" she was recieving...I am NOT sure we know what drug/s she was on...it has been ASSUMED that she was on Prozac

I do still wonder...was she in therapy session the day she killed Elizabeth? the day after?

was she (possibly) in Mormon counseling thanks to Gma??

I do think that there could be a sort of "curve" among sociopaths....and due to what she did, Allyssa is far gone at a young age..

there are sociopaths who "tame" and control what they do....from what I have been reading they may do this to avoid the discomfort and hassle of jails and prison or getting hurt, some sort of self preservation

 

[Mickey Mouse]

...to DEMAND that the state, with its unlimited resources, prove their case beyond all dispute or set the accused free.

I presume that you misspoke. The state does not have unlimited resources. Further, it is not fair to society/the state to demand that the state prove its case "beyond all dispute." The legal standard, as I'm sure you know, is beyond a reasonable doubt. Big difference.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I presume that you misspoke. The state does not have unlimited resources. Further, it is not fair to society/the state to demand that the state prove its case "beyond all dispute." The legal standard, as I'm sure you know, is beyond a reasonable doubt. Big difference.

Of course the state has unlimited resources at their disposal to prove a case they can hire any expert they want, they have forensic labs etc, you and I have none of that, their resources are unlimited indeed while ours, the accused are very much limited no matter how much money we have. Derschowitz talks about this in one of his books.

I know what the legal standard and I think it should be higher than reasonable doubt which is why I said beyond dispute. I am criminal defense attorney.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Yes...but it is "beyond a reasonable doubt"

In all of this I sometimes think that we forget why we are here....a sweet little girl, a "girly girl" who loved pink...who liked to dress up her little pets...
a sweet little girl who like Allyssa had a pretty rough family life....but was a joy to all who knew her...

a sweet little girl who should be helping to bake Christmas cookies, wrapping presents, dreaming of what toys she would get....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F1Cj7gVIHM


Let's not forget the person who strangled her, slit her throat and buried her will be eating turkey and cranberry sauce, even if it is behind bars

 

[Bibliophile]

btw, I was never suggesting being autistic could be a defense to anything.

I agree with Paximus, though, no one can definitively say whether or not she has anything without examining her.

You're correct, of course but even then the experts can and do disagree.

Its also possible that ordinary, well-informed citizens can read and research, discuss and deduce, Its the nature of a discussion board.