MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[Bibliophile]

She may be a depressed, bipolar, ADHD, schizophrenic, autistic, gluten intolerant compulsive. Or not. We can speculate all day long and in the end it may not matter.

What will matter is Missouri law.

The legal standard and the psychiatric standard are two, completely different things - especially in Missouri.

If she pleads not guilty by reason of mental defect, her chances to plea bargain or contest the facts of the case are zip, nadda, gone.

She will bear the burden of proof and will have to demonstrate that she doesn't possess the cognitive skills/ability to know right from wrong.

If they know right from wrong but are unable to act on that knowledge due to mental illness - too bad, they don't meet the criteria in Missouri.

 

[kkmiami]

I'm not attaching it to autism. I'm simply taking issue with people stating definitively that she doesn't have it. Because there's no way to know without having examined her, much less from the little bit of information we have.

I totally disagree. The autistic children and young adults I have been around are gifted in certain areas and very deficient in others. I have never known any that were violent to others, although some are hurtful to themselves with head banging. They usually function in very structured settings. None of them are in honor societies like Alyssa was. School is usually a huge struggle. She displays nothing at all that even slightly resembles autism. Where are you all coming up with this? Only thing that at all corresponds is self injury. This is totally an off the wall observation about Alyssa. She is a picture perfect psychopath.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I totally disagree. The autistic children and young adults I have been around are gifted in certain areas and very deficient in others. I have never known any that were violent to others, although some are hurtful to themselves with head banging. They usually function in very structured settings. None of them are in honor societies like Alyssa was. School is usually a huge struggle. She displays nothing at all that even slightly resembles autism. Where are you all coming up with this? Only thing that at all corresponds is self injury. This is totally an off the wall observation about Alyssa. She is a picture perfect psychopath.

So, you are disagreeing with my statement that, based on what little we know about this case, and from ABs social media profiles, that we can't diagnose her as to having or not having anything, definitively.

Therefore, you're saying that based on her myspace profile, youtube videos, and word of mouth, we can make a complex medical analysis to determine whether or not she is autistic? Ok.

Btw, I know a guy who is autistic. He was in several honor societies in high school. He did well enough to go to a prestigious university. I saw him tonight, actually, and we talked about growing up autistic.

 

[Kateyes]

I am going to play devil's advocate for a minute. A few nights ago I posted a link to detailed info about Charlie Brandt, who killed his pregnant mother, unborn sibling and shot his father (who survived) when he was thirteen. The crime happened in the state of Indiana, and after evaluation by a court-appointed psychiatrist it was determined that Charlie suffered from a severe adolescent adjustment disorder. He was free to live his life at the age of 18. His father meanwhile had moved his sblings to Florida, and allowed Charlie to move in with them.

Charlie married, and had friends, and almost nobody but his family knew of his past. He eventually murdered his wife's aunt, and his wife, and then committed suicide. After his death LE investigated him in numerous unsolved murders located in areas where Charlie lived when the murders occurred. Now, here is the question: How many of those who are advocating that AB be freed as a young adult would be comfortable with her becoming the wife of a son? Mother to your grandchildren? Or simply live next door to her? Or have your grandchildren live next door to her? I could never be comfortable with any of those scenarios, but that is just my opinion. Further, is it fair for someone with this type of past to live freely in society without anyone having the benefit of that knowledge?

 

[AndresEscobar]

I am going to play devil's advocate for a minute. A few nights ago I posted a link to detailed info about Charlie Brandt, who killed his pregnant mother, unborn sibling and shot his father (who survived) when he was thirteen. The crime happened in the state of Indiana, and after evaluation by a court-appointed psychiatrist it was determined that Charlie suffered from a severe adolescent adjustment disorder. He was free to live his life at the age of 18. His father meanwhile had moved his sblings to Florida, and allowed Charlie to move in with them.

Charlie married, and had friends, and almost nobody but his family knew of his past. He eventually murdered his wife's aunt, and his wife, and then committed suicide. After his death LE investigated him in numerous unsolved murders located in areas where Charlie lived when the murders occurred. Now, here is the question: How many of those who are advocating that AB be freed as a young adult would be comfortable with her becoming the wife of a son? Mother to your grandchildren? Or simply live next door to her? Or have your grandchildren live next door to her? I could never be comfortable with any of those scenarios, but that is just my opinion. Further, is it fair for someone with this type of past to live freely in society without anyone having the benefit of that knowledge?

Can you please tell me who is advocating that AB be freed as a young adult? Thanks in advance.

 

[Kateyes]

AndresEscobar - It would take me days and days to go through the threads and state everyone who felt she deserves a second chance. I am simply referring to the fact that there are two trains of thought re: AB - LWOP, and the opportunity for a second chance when she reaches 21, should that avenue be allowed by the state. I was not aiming my post at anyone in particular, just making some points in general. If you have been reading through the threads there have been some who have presented arguments for both scenarios. I am not looking for an argument or even a debate - just trying to present some food for thought. There will always be supporters of both views in regards to youthful murderers. JMHO

 

[eeyorelrn]

Of course the state has unlimited resources at their disposal to prove a case they can hire any expert they want, they have forensic labs etc, you and I have none of that, their resources are unlimited indeed while ours, the accused are very much limited no matter how much money we have. Derschowitz talks about this in one of his books.

I know what the legal standard and I think it should be higher than reasonable doubt which is why I said beyond dispute. I am criminal defense attorney.

Dude, which state do you live in? Because in mine, LE jobs go unfilled because of budget cuts, our governor wasted thoudands of dollars flying internationally to see his Argentenian paramour, our schools and mental health programs loose more and more funding every day because WE LACK SUBSTANTIATIVE funds, and our unemployment rate is 12.3%

SLED (our state law enforcement agency) has to scrape and fight every year to just keep enough funding to barely squeak by. This is where ALL of the forensic testing et al is done in the state, if it is not sent on to the FBI. "Experts" are generally from SLED, and if they are outside, they have to settle for a set fee, not the fleeting $$$ you seem to think that the 'state' can use. And it is not a lot of $ either (what can I say, our lawmakers are a bunch of cheap scapes when it doesn't involve getting their pockets lined and padded.)

I would SERIOUSLY love to move to your state with its "unlimited resources". I am sure most of my fellow citizens would too.

OK, back on topic.

:rant:

 

[eeyorelrn]

AndresEscobar - It would take me days and days to go through the threads and state everyone who felt she deserves a second chance. I am simply referring to the fact that there are two trains of thought re: AB - LWOP, and the opportunity for a second chance when she reaches 21, should that avenue be allowed by the state. I was not aiming my post at anyone in particular, just making some points in general. If you have been reading through the threads there have been some who have presented arguments for both scenarios. I am not looking for an argument or even a debate - just trying to present some food for thought. There will always be supporters of both views in regards to youthful murderers. JMHO

This is not directed at any one person directly, just the fact that this continues to come up and be a sore point all around for all....

Having worked within mental health settings, I think it would take DECADES of intense inpatient therapy to even get someone whom wanted to kill "just to see how it felt" to the point where they would be safe to others in society, even if there were no other mental health issues other than a 'simple' personality disorder (I say simple just in the fact that we are talking hypothetically about a single diagnosed personality disorder).

Until we know more about her mental stability or lack thereof, begining to discuss what her punishment should be is a mute point. There are simply too many factors that need to be discussed, determined, and evaluated.

HOWEVER, to simply state that solely because of her age that she should be given a second chance is misguided at best and at worst, dangerous. Her age is not enough to say she deserves a second chance. HEr mental and emotional well being and health is what is at issue. Without that key factor, she could be 21 or 81, and it would make no difference. There has to be a consideration for her ability to function in society safely towards herslef and others, not just blindly let her go at 21 and hope for the best.

:rant:

 

[angel10510]

Though I have not posted on the AB threads I have been following them. Respectfully, I'm puzzled by the regular statements that some posters are advocating AB's release at age 21 or in the near future, be allowed to move in to all our neighbourhoods, marry our sons, graduate from our colleges, and murder our children, neighbors, and community members. Perhaps I have missed them.

From my reading, and please do correct me if I'm misreading, it appears that the disagreement is over length of sentence and issue of treatment for AB. A minority of posters think that, following a guilty verdict, AB should receive treatment in prison or in a separate facility. Advocates for treatment on these threads have based their suggestions on one or more of the following reasons: she may be sentenced to less than life in prison and hence be eligible for parole , and upon release she'd reenter society; or she may spend the rest of her life within walls, in which case treatment would help her become a better person or inmate; or because therapy would help psychiatrists or profilers learn more about those like her to help prevent crime or catch criminals in the future.

The majority of posters think that if found guilty AB should be locked away forever, in punishment and/or because she can never be trusted to reenter society; and that therapy would be unsuccessful at best and detrimental at worst.

Ftr, I have no personal or professional ties to anyone involved on the threads or to the issues discussed. This seems to me to be a red herring that hinders discussion and debate.

 

[AndresEscobar]

AndresEscobar - It would take me days and days to go through the threads and state everyone who felt she deserves a second chance. I am simply referring to the fact that there are two trains of thought re: AB - LWOP, and the opportunity for a second chance when she reaches 21, should that avenue be allowed by the state. I was not aiming my post at anyone in particular, just making some points in general. If you have been reading through the threads there have been some who have presented arguments for both scenarios. I am not looking for an argument or even a debate - just trying to present some food for thought. There will always be supporters of both views in regards to youthful murderers. JMHO

having been in this thread for a while, I disagree. I don't think I've ever heard anyone advocate that she be out of wherever she goes in 5 years. And certainly that's not predominate enough of a viewpoint to be considered "the other view point". I know I certainly don't feel that way.

The side that you're misapplying to want her "a second chance from the state" is interested in rehabilitation for AB. We think she's obviously sick, that there's obviously something wrong with her, and I know from professional experience that putting someone with mental problems in a mental facility, have doctors treat them, and then sentence them to jail time after rehabilitation (if they're ever rehabilitated) is the better way to go, especially for someone as young as AB. If you've been paying attention, I've put the amount of time before AB would enter society again as "Decades", not 5 years.

 

[gliving]

Her parents are meth addicts and yes she lived with her grandmother, but not her entire life and her formative years when she was developing her self identity it appears she was with the drug addicts.

I've not read that CB and MB were meth addicts. Can you please provide a link to this? Thanks!

 

[MDATCA]

My prayers are with the familiy to get through this holiday season with as much happiness and joy in their memories of Elizabeth.

 

[LadyBug99]

As a poster who is an advocate of Alyssa getting some sort of help or treatment, I have never said I believe she should go free due to a mental defect. I do not think she should be released into society at the age of 21. The death penalty is off the table and the worst case scenario is LWOP. I hope she gets a lengthy sentence with the possibility of parole. I do not know if she can ever be completely rehabilitated but I think that it should at least be explored. She is a child and we cannot say for sure that one day she would be able to recognize and feel remorse for the HORRIBLE act that she committed. Even if she is eligible for parole in 15, 25 or 30+ years...that does not mean it will be granted.

 

[eyes4crime]

And that is precisely why such statements are never allowed to be introduced at trial because they are inflammatory and predjudicial that is to say that they inflame and make the jury immediately predjudiced towards the defendent which in turn makes it impossible for the jury to be impartial and take in to consideration all other facts. Therefore I would be very surprised especially with this new team of lawyers that she has, if that statement is not tossed out and ruled inadmissable in pre trial hearings and the jury will never hear it. And thats how it should be as evidenced by your own comment that if you were on a jury that statement alone would turn you away from AB in spite of what other facts may be introduced. Jurors who react in such a way are not impartial and are the reason 7 times out of 10 a mistrial is declared.

Paximus - I agree the statement 'I wanted to murder someone to see what it felt like to murder' is inflammatory - yes it is! In this case the words came from her and this is her explanation for the murder of a 9yo - she acted on those words. Inflammatory but true! That sentence has been uttered by other child murderers who have gone on to become serial murderers...why shouldn't that statement be considered 'fact'? Maybe some defense attorney will make a case for psychotism and show those words were meaningless, but why render them inadmissible under the auspice of being inflammatory?

 

[eyes4crime]

As a poster who is an advocate of Alyssa getting some sort of help or treatment, I have never said I believe she should go free due to a mental defect. I do not think she should be released into society at the age of 21. The death penalty is off the table and the worst case scenario is LWOP. I hope she gets a lengthy sentence with the possibility of parole. I do not know if she can ever be completely rehabilitated but I think that it should at least be explored. She is a child and we cannot say for sure that one day she would be able to recognize and feel remorse for the HORRIBLE act that she committed. Even if she is eligible for parole in 15, 25 or 30+ years...that does not mean it will be granted.

Maybe in 15 or 30 years someone will have developed an 'empathy, compassion, or conscience ' injection. That's one stock I wouldn't want to miss out on. mho

 

[LogicalMinds]

Well whatever "treatment" she gets, I hope the therapists are super skilled and savvy..
since one of the hallmarks of those with personality disorders seems to be their ability to "say what you want to hear"....they are chameleons (or lizards) that will do whatever it takes

Not stupid at all....I am sure Allyssa was "fooling" her therapists, school, grandparents etc

and she could do it again

when one of the key compenents of an illness is the ability of the person with that illness to make others think they don't have it, then what??

I have asked here about "treatment for sociopaths"...what works...so far we have a study from Denmark with teen sociopaths that shows some improvement when they are in a strict structure with totally enforced reward/punishment system...but...there is no indication that any of these teens had gone as "far" as Allyssa...ie, they were not murderers as far as we know

I also found a "blog" post from an admitted sociopath who claims that he does not act out on his impulses, not out of caring, cause he claims he doesn't. He has simply decided that he does not want to go to prison or get DBC (death by cop) or whatever...so he "controls" himself. It seems that he too never murdered anyone

sooooo....what "program"....what specialized therapists...what critera to judge if it worked?? If Allyssa says in 20 years that she feels remorse, do we know that or is it the chameleon??? And in today's strapped economy, who will pay for all of that??

 

[lbminnesota]

I've not read that CB and MB were meth addicts. Can you please provide a link to this? Thanks!

I was a follower of this case up until Alyssa's court date. I couldn't read anymore once her grandparents began to be attacked. Up until that point, the only information we and the media had about Alyssa's parents were court documents. Alyssa's mom was caught with a small amount of pot this summer while on the river (we assume it was a boating check point). She also had a DUI the previous year. She was sentenced to two years probation with a stipulation of not being around alcohol. There is no mention of habitual drug offenses or abuse. I've seen media take this one conviction and blow it up to imply a serious drug addiction without anything behind this statement (I apologize in advance if the courts have released more information as to her background).

I applaud Alyssa's grandparents in their proactive actions to gaining custody of MB's children. IMO - they moved from California so that MB and the children could still maintain a relationship. The grandmother provided a yearly status update to the courts to determine if there should be any changes in the guardianship. They appear to have tried everything and relied on professionals for her treatment plan. If MB had been the primary parent, we'd be chastizing other family members now for not stepping in.

 

[Bibliophile]

If you've been paying attention, I've put the amount of time before AB would enter society again as "Decades", not 5 years.

I understand your position and can see the ethical/moral issues. The problem is Missouri law. Acquittals on the grounds of mental disease or defect do not impose any requirements on length of treatment. She can petition for release every 180 days. While it may be unlikely she would be released within a few years, I think its very possible, given her age, she could be conditionally released in less than ten.

This does little to reassure the public that justice was served or that their communities are safe.

 

[LadyBug99]

Well whatever "treatment" she gets, I hope the therapists are super skilled and savvy..
since one of the hallmarks of those with personality disorders seems to be their ability to "say what you want to hear"....they are chameleons (or lizards) that will do whatever it takes

Not stupid at all....I am sure Allyssa was "fooling" her therapists, school, grandparents etc

and she could do it again

when one of the key compenents of an illness is the ability of the person with that illness to make others think they don't have it, then what??

I have asked here about "treatment for sociopaths"...what works...so far we have a study from Denmark with teen sociopaths that shows some improvement when they are in a strict structure with totally enforced reward/punishment system...but...there is no indication that any of these teens had gone as "far" as Allyssa...ie, they were not murderers as far as we know

I also found a "blog" post from an admitted sociopath who claims that he does not act out on his impulses, not out of caring, cause he claims he doesn't. He has simply decided that he does not want to go to prison or get DBC (death by cop) or whatever...so he "controls" himself. It seems that he too never murdered anyone

sooooo....what "program"....what specialized therapists...what critera to judge if it worked?? If Allyssa says in 20 years that she feels remorse, do we know that or is it the chameleon??? And in today's strapped economy, who will pay for all of that??

Currently there may not be any type of treatment that works successfully on sociopaths/psychopaths. Who I am to say that down the road, after years of research they will not find a treatment that works? What we know now is that there are significant brain dysfunctions in people who are classified as sociopaths or psychopaths. I believe these people need to be studied and maybe one day they can find a way to change and correct the brain function and fix the misdirected signals. Perhaps then there will be a form of therapy that can be deemed successful.

I think finding a successful treatment for people who have been diagnosed with a mental defect is as important as finding a cure for cancer. MOO

 

[LogicalMinds]

I understand your position and can see the ethical/moral issues. The problem is Missouri law. Acquittals on the grounds of mental disease or defect do not impose any requirements on length of treatment. She can petition for release every 180 days. While it may be unlikely she would be released within a few years, I think its very possible, given her age, she could be conditionally released in less than ten.

This does little to reassure the public that justice was served or that their communities are safe.

Yes...and they can't change the laws retroactive..so it is what it is

IMHO Allysa's "best hope" is for them to strike some sort of plea deal that provides mental health treatment and some hope of release in like 25 or 30 years...
I do feel that IF she plays hard ball, like Michael Herndandez did, she might end up like he is..life in prison , no parole

Hopefully some sort of "therapy" will work...but if it doesn't?? scary thought...I just personally don't feel that SOME people will ever change...sex perverts, and sociopaths

I posted this fable on a thread about an SRO who has abducted and most likely killed a little girl after raping her (Sarah Haley case in Maryland)

”It was really cold and a nice lady had a warm blanket. A poisonous snake nearby was shivering and begged the lady just to pick him up long enough for him to get warm. She resisted saying "you are a poisonous snake and you will bite me and I'll die!" He begged and pleaded and promised not to bite her so she finally gave in and picked him up and wrapped him in the blanket. He bit her and as she was laying there dying she asked "why did you bite me - you promised you wouldn't?" As he slithered away he looked back and said: "Lady you knew I was a snake when you picked me up'!

Old fable