MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[AnnieOakley]

After years of studying high-functioning autism, having an Aspie son, and being asked to participate in speaking engagements on the subject, I can promise you she is not autistic. Those who work with autistic people over time can spot people on the spectrum pretty quickly. The video she made of the "hot" fence alone shows me that she is not autistic.

I agree, Kimster. I've worked with a large variety of kids with disabilities for 18 years, 12 of those in schools with kids with autism, and with kids with emotional/behavioral disabilities... from what I can tell, AB fits more in line with the E-BD/conduct disordered kids and not at ALL like my Aspie kids.

She also seems different from my E/BD kids because her behavior seems much more controlled.... for example, I've read in several places that she had good grades. Most of my kids with disabilities- especially ones that affect their emotional/social functioning- are not able to get good grades without a lot of support and intervention. I'm not saying that to 'dis' those kids, but to say that AB does not seem to fit within any of those disability areas (again, just in my experience).

In my opinion, her behaviors point to either a 'conduct disorder' or 'antisocial personality disorder' type. I don't really see any other personality disorders fitting her behaviors either.... JMO.

Thanks for posting about the autism issue... I think that the initial comment about AB (made by a friend or someone?) was just their inexperienced way of trying to describe her.... clearly, they were trying to say something was odd, maybe just don't have the right vocabulary to describe what they meant...

 

[JLMcKenna83]

The new lawyers in this case have me a bit scared. I fear that AB will serve minimal time in a juvenile facility then be released with a new name. Wherever she ends up the people around her will be unaware of who she is and her past. All that will have been down is forr AB to learn how to be more manipulative and deceptive. I sure hope that she NEVER has a child of her own. I hope I am very wrong but I think that this change cold be a bad thing for all who want to see justice for Elizabeth.

IMO, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, Alyssa does need the best representation possible. But, I also believe that once the jury hears the full story, they're not going to fall for the "insanity" defense that I believe they plan to use. The jury will be told exactly what happened, they will see crime scene photos, and I BELIEVE they will be horrified at what they find out. It's going to emotionally scar alot of people, and I think they will never look at teens the same again. (Once they see what she was capable of)

No one lives in their own little bubble.. and when the statements about how Alyssa killed Elizabeth "just to see what it felt like" are presented to the jury.. They're going to see that she's not insane. She has made numerous statements to people saying that she wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone, and her prior digging of the "graves" shows pre-meditation. If she were a 25 year old adult, this would be a slam dunk case for the state. But because she's 15.. everyone's got their panties in a wad because they don't want to believe that this is what children are capable of.

 

[PAXIMUS]

also,I noticed in the paper,,(but i lost it) that the state "big boys" as far as PBs go,,are takin over her case,,i read that they're very tuff,,very "effective"? i think they jump in when the state try's for the death penalty,,from what i read,although they c ant give her that,,they still stepped in. does anybody know anything about this group of people? how good are they? and how do ya think it will (if any) change the outcome of a trial,if there is one?

I have done some research and these are very good attornies and they specialize in insanity pleas. It makes me very releived to know she will have zealous representation and possibily medical care instead of imprisonment. These are big players who will outshine those small town prosecutors.

 

[Jodibug]

Jodibug, any chance you could get a copy of the latest Red and Black?

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/12/18/news_local/nt013local05redblack09.txt

snipped from article:

"Young journalists tackle 9-year-old's murder, charges against classmate under new direction

First came the announcement of fellow classmate Alyssa Bustamante being charged in the murder of 9-year-old Elizabeth Olten. Then came the untimely suicide of Red and Black adviser Bill Currie.

"From the beginning, Currie told us this (Olten murder) was something we would have to cover," said managing editor Hilary Weaver. "I talked to him Sunday (the day before he died), and we talked about what angle we were going to take on the issue." After Currie's Oct. 26 death, the staff was left without an adviser."

My daughter has it in her bedroom upstairs. What would you like to know from it?

 

[LogicalMinds]

Well they can't change the state laws....and they use the M'Naughten version of the insanity plea and I don't think it will work...I sure hope not

it was not allowed for Michael Hernandez....here is a very interesting article written by our local New Times ...good journalists who do a more in depth version

Interesting to see that Michael was outgoing, popular, somewhat of a class clown, had a lot of friends...and also enjoyed pictures of decapitated people....an honor student in a really good "magnet" school....with a plan...to become a serial killer

Being that it is Florida, everything was "public" with our sunshine laws...so you can even see a few pages of Michael's "diary"....this stuff was on tv a LOT during this case

pretty scary stuff

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2007-04-12/news/code-red/1

 

[AndresEscobar]

Well they can't change the state laws....and they use the M'Naughten version of the insanity plea and I don't think it will work...I sure hope not

Insanity pleas are ruled on by judges on a case by case basis. The Missouri statutory law simply sets the method through which a judge evaluates them.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Yes Andre...and that "method" won't IMHO cut it for Allyssa as she showed premeditation, and covered up her crime...self preservation...so not legally "insane"

even in a state with "easier" type law this would be hard to make into an insanity defense

what do you think about some of the "sociopath" info we have been discussing here?? Do you know of ANY "successful" program to rehab a sociopath who has committed murder at a young age?? thanks

 

[AndresEscobar]

Yes Andre...and that "method" won't IMHO cut it for Allyssa as she showed premeditation, and covered up her crime...self preservation...so not legally "insane"

even in a state with "easier" type law this would be hard to make into an insanity defense

what do you think about some of the "sociopath" info we have been discussing here?? Do you know of ANY "successful" program to rehab a sociopath who has committed murder at a young age?? thanks

Yeah, I know thats your opinion. However, there are facts that we aren't privy to. Who knows if it will be successful, but from asking around the office AB's attorneys are about the best you can get. The judge or jury will make that decision after getting a much more complete picture of the facts than we have here.

With regard to the sociopath discussion, I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist. However, I would consider the limited amount of information and behavior we've seen from her to be indicative of something being wrong. I think that it's impossible for anyone to diagnose AB without actually examining her, much less from the limited amount of information we have about her. The question of whether she's autistic or sociopathic or whathaveyou requires an in depth, careful analysis that brief glimpses into her social media websites don't provide.

As for whether someone who has committed murder at an early age can be successfully rehabbed, I don't know of any specific examples. However, I would be shocked if there was no one to ever rejoin society and be normal several decades after committing a violent crime at 15.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Andre...several decades.....well that is what they offered Michael Hernandez here in Florida...he turned it down, went to trial and got life

the thing that scares me (many of us I think) is that she might get juvenile "justice"...ie, in till 21 then out free and clear with NO record at all...ready to enter nursing school, med school, law school...do whatever whenever with NO record..and that my friend is simply scaryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy !! JMO of course

 

[LogicalMinds]

Oh...on the Susan Powell thread there are some people who are Mormons...(as is/was Susan)....and one was speaking of how they are "marriage counselors" but not really trained...they are supervised by a real counselor....seems that some people with a masters degree and a strong Mormon faith/leadership do the counseling

I asked about a teen...do they counsel them too?? Yes, was the answer...the family must pay for this counseling but they sure do have "counselors" for teens

Now...that was one question my "enquiring" mind wondered about...after the initial hospitalization, therapy...who or where was the therapy being done for Allyssa??

did the Gma utilize her church counseling services??? I really wonder about this

 

[AndresEscobar]

Andre...several decades.....well that is what they offered Michael Hernandez here in Florida...he turned it down, went to trial and got life

the thing that scares me (many of us I think) is that she might get juvenile "justice"...ie, in till 21 then out free and clear with NO record at all...ready to enter nursing school, med school, law school...do whatever whenever with NO record..and that my friend is simply scaryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy !! JMO of course

I'm shocked that Michael Hernandez turned the plea deal down. That was obviously a mistake.

I don't think there is any chance she gets out of whereever she goes at 21. And, if she does, there will be some type of record. It's a myth that juveniles get their records wiped clean. They may be technically sealed, but especially with a case like this, word of mouth will let the inquiring minds know what they need to know. Especially now with the internet. A simple google search will let anyone know what they need to know about AB.

 

[eyes4crime]

Andre...several decades.....well that is what they offered Michael Hernandez here in Florida...he turned it down, went to trial and got life

the thing that scares me (many of us I think) is that she might get juvenile "justice"...ie, in till 21 then out free and clear with NO record at all...ready to enter nursing school, med school, law school...do whatever whenever with NO record..and that my friend is simply scaryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy !! JMO of course

LogicalMinds - I really doubt Alyssa would be granted juvenile 'justice' and be out and about at 21yo. This very high profile murder was real and no jury, judge will forget that. mho

If the insanity defense is going to be used - wonder what the diagnosis will be? Sociopath/psychopath is not a mental illness. Maybe they will say she had an agitated depression with psychotic features.

One thing known about psycopaths - they don't like being one down and having their flaws or weaknesses pointed out. She may freak out when hearing about the insanity defense...and if she doesn't, we can wonder if she's going along with the program or really has another, viable diagnosis. mho

 

[gliving]

My daughter has it in her bedroom upstairs. What would you like to know from it?

"we talked about what angle we were going to take on the issue."

Just wondering what angle they decided to take. Thanks Jodibug, you're so helpful.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Good info thanks

I really urge you all to read about Michael...

in his trial (which had to be moved to Orlando since south Florida covered this so much) Michael was arrogant

for instance...he shaved his head, looked older and tougher....he exercises a lot so pretty "buff"...he refused the plea deal

he is NOT stupid at all...in fact an honor student, above av IQ...

and he is far far from "austisic" or anything like that...he was a very talkative, POPULAR, kid....great sense of humor...class clown

early (bad reporting) made it seem that he was "best friends" with little Jaime when he was just friends with him....Jaime was shy and probably felt Michael was his best friend since he was cool with him, but really Michael was friends with everyone (totally against the idea of the loner serial killer)

In fact he was probably less of a rebel than Allysa...the ONLY thing he ever was in trouble for was telling jokes in class !! NO suicide...not on Prozac or any other drug

he was exhibiting OCD traits the last year (or 6 months?) of his life...however, SOME of this was also thought to be somewhat "put on" by his parents who desperately tried to make him seem "insane" to get an insanity deal..and it didn't work

Michael had a plan like any ambitious kid...he wanted to be a serial killer...and he decided to give himself a Birthday Present (he killed Jaime the day after his own birthday)
he made a list...he tried to get another kid on his Birthday but it failed...the kid was more savvy and felt something was wrong, so the next day he chose Jaime...who was small, non athletic, shy...looked up to Michael....and he brutally killed him....sliced his throat and stabbed him 40 times
chose him not out of hate or jealousy or anger...chose him cause he was "small and easy to kill"

I guess they could study Michael and Allyssa....they really seem to be very much alike

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

Lets say this goes to trial.

What do yall think about a scenario where there are some jurors that have teenagers themselves ? Or maybe even a 15 yr old daughter ?

Do yall think AB would gain any sympathy by them ?

Just curious.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Lets say this goes to trial.

What do yall think about a scenario where there are some jurors that have teenagers themselves ? Or maybe even a 15 yr old daughter ?

Do yall think AB would gain any sympathy by them ?

Just curious.

In most cases involving the death of a minor, the prosecutor would try to load the jury with parents, preferably of young children. However, the fact that the defendant is also a young child, that's going to change things for the prosecutor. More specifically, it may somewhat neutralize what would otherwise be an obvious strength.

The result is an increase of the level of uncertainty of taking this case to trial.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Andre...several decades.....well that is what they offered Michael Hernandez here in Florida...he turned it down, went to trial and got life

the thing that scares me (many of us I think) is that she might get juvenile "justice"...ie, in till 21 then out free and clear with NO record at all...ready to enter nursing school, med school, law school...do whatever whenever with NO record..and that my friend is simply scaryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy !! JMO of course

This is where we disagree I suppose, whats scary to me is the number of people who DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS of this case or any case for that matter and IMMEDIATELY adopt a "pull the switch on them" mentality. That, my friend is the epitome of what I call scaryyyyyyyyyy. Its altogether frightening in fact and it is almost as if the majority of people in this world somehow seem to get some sort of pleasure at seeing the suffering of those accused of crimes.

I understand that these people need to pay the piper for what they have done and would never suggest otherwise but I dont get any pleasure from that and I especially am not willing to suggest we throw them in a cell and toss away the keys or send them to the gallows before I know the facts and especially before a jury of their peers decides their fate.

One thing you need to understand that took me a while to figure out until I finally went to law school is this:

It doesnt matter if they committed the crime or not, that is completely irrelevant in our system of jurisprudence and justice, THE ONLY THING that matters is whether THE STATE CAN PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt or not, if they cant then the person walks, and rightfully so, I wouldnt have it any other way because what is MOST IMPORTANT to me, as sad as it sounds, is that innocent people never get taken away from their loved ones and locked away in a cage like an animal and the only way we can prevent this from happening too often is to rigorously and zealously defend those accused of crimes whether they did them or not and to DEMAND that the state, with its unlimited resources, prove their case beyond all dispute or set the accused free.

I believe AB murdered EO but that isnt what is important, what is important to me is that we get her the help she needs to turn her life around and come to understand what made her do this and she cant get that rotting away in a cold dark cell for the next 75 years, which by the way is a longer sentence than anyone else would ever recieve for the crime commited, assuming she gets LWOP and in my opinion this is cruel and unusual when we could instead try and help her overcome her problems so she can have a normal life like the rest of us as I see no reason that is not possible.

And you know what else is scary, that fact that people like her parents are out there having babies and turning them in to monsters and we hold the child responsible for what they have become when it is the parents who made them what they are. Yea, thats not only scaryyyy but quite disturbing and it says more about us than it does people like AB.

 

[not_my_kids]

The autism suggestion is just laughable. MOO

 

[AndresEscobar]

The autism suggestion is just laughable. MOO

Is it? I know little about autism, however, I do know that becoming very common. My mother is a elementary school teacher, and because our state follows a doctrine of inclusion, she has become an autism expert. I'll have to pick her brain about it.

Unless, you mean that she could use her autism as a defense would be laughable, then I would agree with you that it's not going to work.

 

[mia g]

To those advocates of "getting AB help"..I swear I am not trying to be argumentative, but only wondering the answer to the question.... My question being HOW DO WE/THEY KNOW WHEN SHE HAS HAD ENOUGH HELP!?!?!?! How is this theory tested??? Also WHY does she deserve to be out in 5 10 15 etc years, while Elizabeth is DEAD!?!?! What standards would be used to assure the public and Elizabeths family she is all "healed" and not a threat to any other innocent person?? I know WHY no one answers this question,because NO ONE can assure the public they are safe from Alyssa UNLESS she is locked up. Reguardless of what anyone believes, I know for a FACT, Alyssa CAN AND WILL get help in prison IF SHE ACCEPTS it. Yes prison mental health workers are over worked with a huge case loads, BUT so are most ALL mental health workers. They are also all human, there is not a human alive that would convince me EVER that AB is not a threat!!

I know "the switch can not be thrown on her". But reguardless of her "problems" she does not deserve more of a life then Elizabeth. She just doesnt!!! She took a life, took a daughter, sister, niece, grandchild from a family, so WHY would she deserve any freedom ever..

I have said before and will say again, yes she is sick, and has problems. To me the most telling "info" we have evidence to her sickness is she can even live with herself after murdering a child(or even if it had been an adult).

At first I did blame her parents. I still do not like them one bit, BUT I can no longer blame them for several reasons...1) Her grandmother raised her. 2) She did not kill or hurt her PARENTS she killed an innocent nine year old girl named ELizabeht Olten. For THIS CRIME she should spend the rest of her life locked up. Just like little Elizabeth's body will spend the rest of eternity in the ground... and her family will spend some part of their holidays visiting their child at a grave site. Alyssa can still do "something" with her life, yes even IN prison. There are numerous stories of inmates helping others, and making something of their lives. Prisons have programs where the inmates can give back and help others. Prison even years of it, is NOT a ddeath sentence, no it isnt where I would choose to live out my years, but there again that is why I try not to commit any crimes.

I do agree there are probably some people doing time that got the shaft, but this case IMHO is not one where this girl will get "shafted". She has admitted her crime, she has reprentation(by the best from what I have heard) AND she needs to be PUNISHED for being a murderer.

I am not heartless, I do feel sorry for the life AB was dealt. No child should be born to a 15 yr old,(although I have met 15 yr olds that had children and their children did not murder, but life was not easy for the young parent or the child), I am sorry Alyssa has some sort of mental defect,(but that was not Elizabeths fault, or her families) I feel sorry for AB up to the point she put her hands around Elizabeths little throat and strangled her, then proceeded to use a knife on her little body. After commiting this crime my sympathy for her vanishes..

ALL is my humble opinion!!!