MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

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Interesting thing about Michael vs Allysa is that he was not on Prozac or any other "meds"...

he had never been to a psychiatrist (his parents had asked him to go to one twice in the months before the murder, but for his OCD...and he refused, telling them he would not talk at all and they would waste their money)

Michael was also not drinking or on drugs...his OCD started with his goal to be "fit" after being chubby in grade school...and involved running, exercise, and eating healthy. It then evolved into being "uber neat" and lining things up.

Michael was in a "magnet" school, an honor student and well liked. Stable parents, no divorce, middle class homelife.

He simply decided his career path and like any young "go getter" he went for it...he decided to be a "serial killer" at the age of 14.

No prozac at all there.
 
As for some claims that AB had Comprehensive Treatment and Therapy, I still doubt that as they had NO idea of what her daily life was like

I'm curious how you could reach this conclusion given she had intensive, in-home services???

Then again if we want to split hairs - does any therapist realistically know a play-by-play of their client's life???

Here is a good link to a description of what Comprehensive Psychiatric Evaluation involves from
The American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry

I would bet that Alyssa has had this at least twice in the last two years - once at MMMH and again at Prenger.
 
Not at all feel free to say whatever you want it is just good to know whether someone is stating an opinion or fact.

Pax,

Given your wife is a mental health professional, I am sure that you know there are very few facts when it comes to human psychopathology.

There are evidence based beliefs and treatment modalities, yet there is disagreement among even the most preeminent scientists and practitioners.

We could gather together the world's top experts on juvenile crime and I doubt there would be a resounding consensus on Alyssa Bustamante.

There's chaff, there's grain and there's presupposition. :)
 
Is it possible that they spent so much time on the "Depression" diagnosis that they overlooked other possible conditions?

Well, there are many types of depression - some much more "risky" than others.

There are some studies that correlate depression with both suicidal tendencies and/or homicidal tendencies. For example, with some depressed teens they don't lay about withdrawn and crying - they are angry and irritable. Some say that suicide with these individuals is anger turned inward and homicide is anger turned outward, but with each there is a pervasive hopelessness. The depression/homicide connection is most commonly thought of in circumstances like Columbine or domestic violence multiple murder cases.
 
Yes that was what I meant, but in their eyes it was BETTER, they were eating three meals a day, had a bed(if that is what u wanna call it, but better then a box I guess)..and some even told me they got treated better IN prison then in the world.. So where you and I wouldnt really think prison life was better, some do. Some were instutionalized, others free world life just realy truly sucked. Also IMHO there are also some inmates that NEED the structure and consistance of prison.

Mia G, I agree. (hey that rhymes...)

Having lived in JC for a good deal of my life, I have naturally encountered ex-convicts.

For those who don't know, the main maximum security prison for this state was in downtown JC, and only closed a few years ago. This is/was a huge stone walled complex within a few blocks of the state capital building. Also in the downtown area are many office buildings housing various state agencies. When I was working for the state, back in the 70/80's, some prisoners participated in work-release programs. These prisoners, nearing the end of their sentences, would be transported by bus to the offices to work in state jobs during the day, (or other businesses in town), and returned to the prison at 5pm. Some would then continue in the same jobs after being paroled. Also, low-risk prisoners, or trustees, would make up the cleaning crews who came into some of the office buildings in the early evenings, always fairly well guarded.

There were a number of other prisons in this immediate area back then....maybe still are, I was away in another state for 20 years....including a women's prison, a minimum security facility, and a work-farm facility. Some percentage of the prisoners settled in JC after release, or at least stayed a few years. So most folks who lived in JC back then knew at least one or two ex-cons.

Anyway, I digress. Several of the ex-convicts I knew then told me that people will return to prison because it's basically a "no-fail" life. In the "outside" world, if you are lousy at your job, or too lazy to work, you end up homeless and starving. In prison...NOT. They still feed you and house you, regardless. In prison, if you don't know what you're good at, or enjoy, as an occupation, they give you tests to help you decide. They move you from kitchen duty to the carpentry shop, to other jobs, until you find a job you're willing/able to do. They provide training and education, if you qualify.

In prison, you don't have to pay bills, shop for groceries, do your own laundry, make choices, etc. All those life chores are taken care of for you. Anyone who lacked the life-skills to take care of those sorts of details COULD have an easier time IN prison than out, provided they stayed out of the gangs, violence, trouble that, of course, is also available inside a prison. If you were able to resign yourself to the lack of freedom, or could rationalize that being fed, housed, clothed w/o freedom to travel, have a family, etc, was better than possibly/probably failing miserably at life outside, WITH freedom, then you'd be happy to stay in, or return to, prison life.

Alyssa is only 15, She hasn't had time to develop life-skills, such as finding and keeping a job, running her own household, etc. I don't know if our penal system has a program to teach those skills or not. I have to wonder if there is any correlation between age at arrest, and recidivism, that would indicate a need for training of that kind.

I knew one ex-con who was incarcerated from age 16 till 29. He didn't know how to unclog a shower drain or change a tire or get a home telephone. Without an outside support system, he'd have been back inside in a matter of months. He later alienated his entire support system and DID end up back in prison after a few years. He was on Danni's extensive list posted on thread 12 or 13.

Relating this to Alyssa, first, she needs to serve enough time to actually be punished for what she did. Second, she should never be released until there is a VERY high degree of certainty that she would never hurt another person again. (she now KNOWS what it feels like to kill someone, right? Doesn't need to wonder anymore.) And third, she shouldn't be released without a support system in place to help her through the ins and outs of outside life.

All the above is my experience and or opinion.
 
Well, there are many types of depression - some much more "risky" than others.

There are some studies that correlate depression with both suicidal tendencies and/or homicidal tendencies. For example, with some depressed teens they don't lay about withdrawn and crying - they are angry and irritable. Some say that suicide with these individuals is anger turned inward and homicide is anger turned outward, but with each there is a pervasive hopelessness. The depression/homicide connection is most commonly thought of in circumstances like Columbine or domestic violence multiple murder cases.

True...but statistically the "outward" type of anger/depression is found in males ...and more found in mass murders or murder /suicide of family
or "DBC"...death by cop...where they set up a situation where they get gunned down by LE in a standoff

There is also a word...which I can't think ...that describes when 2 people "combine" to form a murderous duo...like Columbine...also like the small time criminals who combined in the horrific Petit family murders in Conneticut...

Does anyone know what that term is?? It may be latin or french..I forget...but it means when 2 combine with horrible results..

That happens....Columbine...the Anne Perry duo that murdered in New Zealand...Leopald and Loeb were a first example of that
it is like when 2 sociopaths meet...or a sociopath meets a depressed and angry loner/loser and takes them under their wing

another form of "teen murderers" is group think...the little monsters in the case in my sig line "combined" to "torch" their friend Michael Brewer....
but even they had more "motive" than Allyssa or Michael Hernandez..
ie, there was a dispute over money owed $40 !! on a video game...a stolen bike in retaliation and "snitching" to the cops over the bike etc..plus "group think" seems to be involved

another famous South Florida case (where else LOL...plus we do get all the info here thanks to our sunshine laws)...was the "Bully" case...they made a movie about it...where a bunch of kids combined with various reasons to hate the group's "bully" and they killed him

maybe some of them can be rehabbed...

but....to me Allyssa (and Michael Hernandez) are much more scary

they were above average in intelligence...had friends...they didn't have any motive it seems other than a simple desire : to kill someone...and so they did

what is the "rate" of curing pure sociopaths?? they might be depressed...or OCD..but then again a sociopath could have allergies or asthma or diabetes...unrelated to the underlying lack of "empathy" and conscience

what case of a sociopath changing can be found?? any takers?? thanks
 
Here is another opinion lol, you with many others feel prison is the best alternative - I would be scared to death to put either of these kids in the prison system. Do they need to be hardened any more then they already are? God help us all if they ever escaped!

A disclaimer: I am not an advocate of the DP so, of course, I feel they have a lot to offer in terms of research. I guess you could put them in prison and eventually provide the therapy necessary to rehabilitate them from the prison system.

We have to agree to disagree on this cause for me, prison is nothing but a punishment that hardens and makes for a more resourceful and intelligent criminal.
so nice chatting with everyone - thanks for the insights and sleep well.

Thank you for your comments. I respect your point of view and I agree that we may end up ageeing to disagree. I am ok with that. Here is my take. AB has been charged with commiting a henious crime. The law of our country stipulates that such acts deserve punishment. I have no problems for them to study her and hopefully find out what made her do what she did. Maybe if they can do that, then I am hopefull that will help stop others like her from doing henious acts. I do agree to a point that prison CAN harden a person. Having worked in the prison system for 12 years I can tell you that resourses are there to help you get better if you CHOOSE too. Again thank you for your post.
 
(According to the DSM-IV), the core features of a sociopath are:

There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following in a person 18 years or older:

failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest

deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure

Allysa did this...lied about concert, going into woods etc...conned therapists perhaps? conned the school?

impulsivity or failure to plan ahead

this I am not sure of..she did plan ahead ..dug the graves

irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults

as a girl, I am not sure that she took it so far...however she did have her "dark side"..
the pics of her with the "knife" are pretty scary


reckless disregard for safety of self or others

the "jackazz" type videos...her "joy" at putting her brothers/etc in those situations

consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations

lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

Allysa...yes!

A sociopath may often also have a severe Narcissistic or Paranoid Personality disorder. However, each of these personality disorders can occur separately. Of these 3 personality disorders, the sociopathic personality disorder (which closely parallels what psychiatrists diagnose as Antisocial Personality Disorder) is by far the most socially disabling.

Less severe forms of each of these 3 personality disorders occur commonly in the general population.

~~~~~~~~~~~

The "red" comments added by me :)

I also found a fascinating book on the internet and read a few of the online chapters....The sociopath next door: the ruthless versus the rest of us By Martha Stout
I am going to look for this at my library :)

I think it might provide some interesting discussions here
 
:santa: I also found a fascinating book on the internet and read a few of the online chapters....The sociopath next door: the ruthless versus the rest of us By Martha Stout
I am going to look for this at my library :)

I think it might provide some interesting discussions here

:santa:

Now we know what to get you for Christmas.

:eek:rnament::eek:rnament::eek:rnament::eek:rnament::eek:rnament::eek:rnament::eek:rnament:
 
There is also a word...which I can't think ...that describes when 2 people "combine" to form a murderous duo...like Columbine...also like the small time criminals who combined in the horrific Petit family murders in Conneticut...

Does anyone know what that term is?? It may be latin or french..I forget...but it means when 2 combine with horrible results..

"Folie a deux?" This is a French term describing the combined madness that follows an unfortunate meeting of minds (see Bernado/Homolka, Fred and R West, etc). May come from the notorious Papin sisters case but not sure.

best,

s
 
Interesting thing about Michael vs Allysa is that he was not on Prozac or any other "meds"...

he had never been to a psychiatrist (his parents had asked him to go to one twice in the months before the murder, but for his OCD...and he refused, telling them he would not talk at all and they would waste their money)

Michael was also not drinking or on drugs...his OCD started with his goal to be "fit" after being chubby in grade school...and involved running, exercise, and eating healthy. It then evolved into being "uber neat" and lining things up.

Michael was in a "magnet" school, an honor student and well liked. Stable parents, no divorce, middle class homelife.

He simply decided his career path and like any young "go getter" he went for it...he decided to be a "serial killer" at the age of 14.

No prozac at all there.

LogicalMinds - If you want to read an excellent book based on empirical research - try getting a few of Dr. Robert Hare's books - the first one that comes to mind is 'Without Conscience' a compelling book about diagnosing psychopaths. He has found that the symptoms of psychopathy are there in childhood - and he shows you what they are. He developed the Psychopathy Check List, consisting of 20 areas with a score in each of 0, 1, 2. This is a test I'm sure both the children we have been discussing will be given. Hare is from Canada and has been researching psychopaths (sociopaths here in the states) for over 35 years.

Another book you might enjoy is 'Psychopathy, Perversion and Lust Homicide; author, Duane L. Dobbert. It's a book about recognizing the mental disorders serial killers have.
Dobbert's book is somewhat new and in my opinion, does not reach into the possible causes like Dr. Hare's research does. Both books, imo, are worth the read. Pretty sure Dobbert is a FORENSIC psychologist/professor from Florida.

I'm extremely interested in the research of the violent child; how and why it begins. The other area I'm intently interested in is pedophiles, both as adolescents and adults. I enjoy your enthusiasm and interest in the child murderers we are discussing. If research can get to the whys and hows of the violence, maybe future child murders will be preventable. mho
 
"Folie a deux?" This is a French term describing the combined madness that follows an unfortunate meeting of minds (see Bernado/Homolka, Fred and R West, etc). May come from the notorious Papin sisters case but not sure.

best,

s

YES,.,.,,,,thanks :) I was trying to think of that

in the cases of Allyssa and Michael Hernandez this was not in play however...which makes it all the more scary to me

LOL W8NC haha :) Thanks <grin>
 
Some of you are going to totally disagree with me, but this is my opinion, and probably mine alone!!!

So we should abolish any kind of punishment for any and all crimes, from getting busted for pot, to robbing a convinence store, to murder in any degree? So why do we need laws, if they do not mean anything. We just turn our back and say that person has mental issues. Hey I have mental issues, I get depressed and worried, but I don't think about killing someone, robbing someone, or taking drugs whether illegal or prescribed.

Sorry, but the more I read about the therapy for those that commit these senseless crimes, the more I think they need to be punished, and maybe that is what is wrong with todays young people, LACK OF PUNISHMENT, STRUCTURE, AND RESPECT!!!

Ok, let the flaming begin, but this is my opinion. And I do understand AB is only 15 and is still a child, but still she is dangerous and has proved it. If and when this goes to trial, I am not sure that the details of the events will not totally shock us even more.
 
Thank you for your comments. I respect your point of view and I agree that we may end up ageeing to disagree. I am ok with that. Here is my take. AB has been charged with commiting a henious crime. The law of our country stipulates that such acts deserve punishment. I have no problems for them to study her and hopefully find out what made her do what she did. Maybe if they can do that, then I am hopefull that will help stop others like her from doing henious acts. I do agree to a point that prison CAN harden a person. Having worked in the prison system for 12 years I can tell you that resourses are there to help you get better if you CHOOSE too. Again thank you for your post.

Thanks for your thoughts! I didn't know you worked for a prison for 12 years! Yikes! I bet you have seen it all. I'm sure you have great insight and experience that you can share.

There are those who believe in crime, punishment and the death penalty and there are those who look at it differently. The children we have been discussing, if in prison, imo would have their manipulative ways enhanced in prison as well as increasing their criminal IQ. Discussions, debates, papers, research, speeches, and all the other modalities I've used over the years has not once been effective in changing any minds regarding punishment and/or the DP. My father is quite elderly now and is just as adamant regarding crime and punishment as he was many years ago.
My point: Changing minds is not my goal - I know better. Good discussion and learning new ideas is. Thanks for your knowledge.
 
LadyRider, I totally agree, I don't think there is a medical "condition" for all people that kill/murder,of course Defense Atty's love to get Dr's on the stand to say what the accused is suffering from.I see it as nothing more then an excuse for being evil. I have a hard time thinking that Alyssa could be released back into society one day as being "cured".
 
One of the best books about murderous kids is Jonathan Kellerman's Savage Spawn: Reflections on Violent Children. Kellerman is a child psychologist and author of the Alex Delaware mystery/thriller series. He wrote the book to explain why kids kill after two boys ambushed their classmates in one of the pre-Columbine shootings. He's not an optimist on the subject of turning around psychopaths. It's very short and well-researched, with plenty of references to other psychological, ethical, and criminal justice sources. I recommend it highly for those who are interested in this case.

Ii think kids can be rehabilitated if they are capable of remorse and empathy. This girl doesn't seem to fall into that category.
 
Thanks to all for the book ideas..

I really love the novels by Kellerman *(and those of his wife also)

I will check my library for some of these

from what I read on a few internet searches it does not seem to be easy to change a "sociopath"....no real medication for them
and the efforts to change them are more directed at those who have not yet committed a violent crime (they just mess up other's lives, do horrible things and can't love or feel empathy etc)

and even those don't change

it seems to me that Allysa (and Michael Hernandez) have already reached the worst of sociopathic behavior...remorseless senseless murder just to "see what it feels like"....

I don't care if they keep them in a mental hospital or a prison...I just don't feel they can safely let them out around other people

I also am interested to hear what anyone will say about the fact that Michael H was never on Prozac or any other medication...and are we even sure that Allysa was specifically on prozac?? and does it even change or affect a sociopath??

thanks for some interesting ideas and discussions :)
 
My wife is a therapist and Dr of Psychiatry, she posts here as Emeraldeyes85 and she has worked extensiely with some of these prison counselors and while some of them do indeed care very few of them have any real academic training or expertise, many of them community college graduates with degrees in family studies, hardly the kind of education and know how that is needed to help someone like AB. She needs real medical professionals not a high school guidance counselor.

As a "high school guidance counselor", I am going to shrug off the connection you've made here to not having any "real academic training"- I am a master's level counselor, as are all of my colleagues (and our experiences with the esteemed psychiatric "medical professionals" in our community has been chronically disappointing, to put it politely).....

BUT, I heartily agree with the sentiment of what PAX is saying here... I think there are very, very few professionals with the level of experience and training needed to effectively work with individuals like this... and I doubt that the public could afford (or would choose to afford) having these folks do therapy in the prisons. Even with the most highly qualified professionals involved, I don't know that many of these individuals could even be "rehabilitated"- not to the point where they should live in normal society.
Aside from the issue of punishment and consequences (I'm not saying that shouldn't be considered too, but I was just thinking here about the treatment/incarceration aspect) I think we are fooling ourselves if we do not, as a society, see these individuals, no matter what age they are, as a tremendous risk to innocent citizens. I wish we had an option for them, with intensive treatment, to keep them safe humanely, and to keep us safe from them. Since we have to work with what we have, I feel it's too risky to have them released. JMO, of course.
 
AnnieOakley, Your comments is so professional. I wish I could speak/type my feelings/knowledge like you and so many others do on here. Thank You.
 
I'm curious how you could reach this conclusion given she had intensive, in-home services???
I have posted how I come to my "guesses" along with supporting links (I have NOT made any conclusions in this case) Sorry for repeating-- I am only addressing this again because of the triple emphasis of the question

I do not know the time frame for these "in home services" -- again, I ask anyone who can find a clear report of this to please post it, so I can move on-- I would happier to change my guess, than to continue along this repetitive line (sigh) Most of my posts are in response to sweeping statements about "AB's having years of daily therapy which did not help so therefore she cannot be fixed and should be locked up in prison for life" -- I would like proof of this 2 years of daily intensive therapy

I doubt that they had much knowledge of what her daily life was like after reading some of the following published reports that I have posted in many of my previous posts:

She carried a knife
She took that knife to inappropriate places
She used that knife in an inappropriate and agressive way
She told friends that she wondered what it was like to kill someone
She told friends that she used illegal drugs
On more than one occassion she was unsupervised all night allegedly in the woods
She posted three videos publically whose main theme was getting her brothers to hurt themselves for kicks
She had multiple PUBLIC internet accounts that demonstrated a dark fantasy life and interest in violence and hating authority
She came from a tumultous and broken home
From the aunt's public diary, there was a lot of tension in the custodial home
Her family history included heavy violence multiple felony assault charges -that involved a knife
Her family history included drug arrests
There seem to be plenty of best friends who are not shy about discussing the dark and destructive side of AB -- just one example:
"We talked to one of Alyssa's best friends KS."
"K says in eighth or ninth grade, she started noticing Alyssa change, becoming more destructive. But K also says its love that Alyssa never thought she had. 'She always told me how much she wanted a mom and dad and she just felt alone.'" K tells me she thinks that this feeling of abandonment is what made Alyssa spiral out of control." KMIZ
We even heard a girl's father outside of the courtroom claim that he knew AB had said that she wanted to kill someone http://www.ksdk.com/video/default.as...01/51273517001


Then we have the reports of expert evaluations:
"Bustamante is described in the documents as a troubled, angst-ridden teen, but not extraordinarily so."

"A standardized test designed to evaluate Bustamante&#8217;s state of mind administered before Elizabeth Olten was killed determined that her risk for self-harm was &#8220;mild&#8221; and her tendency toward moodiness was &#8220;moderate.&#8221;
Columbia Tribune

Then again if we want to split hairs - does any therapist realistically know a play-by-play of their client's life???
Split hairs? sorry, I seriously did not know I was splitting hairs; I simply thought I had an open mind
IMO AB had many of the risk factors outlined for violence in youth
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/youthviolence/riskprotectivefactors.html
I thought that was the point of a CHILD's "intensive" and "in-home" therapy, so realistically I do not see any point in this alleged therapy if they do not look at the whole picture; When it comes to children, I would think that "intensive therapy" would not simply rely on what the child says or does not say


I would bet that Alyssa has had this at least twice in the last two years - once at MMMH and again at Prenger.
I would hope she had this after her suicide attempt at MMMH
As far as at least twice, you're right, but does the second matter in this discussion, after all it was after she murdered a child-- a bit late IMO


The only thing I KNOW -was the reported testimony of David Cook

"Usually the evaluation consists of a series of interviews, requiring several hours during one or more sessions. During these interviews, the child or adolescent, family, and clinician work together to formulate different hypotheses concerning the nature of the problem(s). They will also examine possible causes, exacerbating circumstances, and other related problems."[/SIZE] (If they examined causes, circumstances and related problems, did they identify the risk factors for violence)
http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/comprehensive_psychiatric_evaluation
 
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