MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[bigflaw]

Look, here is my point...

1. AB is or is not legally insane - can only be opinion unless you are the judge in the case or are sitting on her jury.

2. Facts require evidence.

3. "I think " is a perfectly acceptable thing to have in front of a post that otherwise would look like you are stating a fact.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/insanity-defense
Burden of Proof

The question of who has the burden of proof with an insanity defense has been a source of controversy. Before the Hinckley verdict, a majority of states had the burden of proof rest with the state; that is, the PROSECUTOR had to prove the defendant was insane. After the Hinckley verdict, the vast majority of states required the defense to prove affirmatively insanity.
MISSOURI: M'Naghten Rule, burden of proof on defendant.

 

[W8nC]

One can kill and not realize it is wrong, also, there are any number of reasons for burying a dead body besides simply wanting to hide it. Dead bodies stink for example, an insane person who didnt know it was wrong to kill could still bury the body not to hide it but because it simply stank.

Reasonable doubt is all it takes. You cannot state for certain what was going on in her mind at the time of the act. She has pleaded not guilty so apparently her lawyer plans to defend against these accusations and feels there is enough reasonable doubt to do so.

IMO reasonable doubt won't sway any jury's opinion regarding Alyssa's intent to kill Elizabeth, or her knowledge that killing was wrong. IMO she didn't dig graves in advance to contain the smell of a dead body. IMO she's a very bright girl, and was 100% aware that killing is wrong....VERY wrong. She knew what social bounds were and when she could or couldn't get by with crossing them. She wasn't some oddball kid. She fit in with her peers, had lots of friends at school, as well as online.

This fictitious insane person everyone keeps bringing up, who doesn't realize it's wrong to kill....that aint Alyssa, believe me. I agree that person could, and maybe does, exist, but you're barking up the wrong tree here. She has psychiatric issues WITHOUT A DOUBT, but knowledge of right and wrong isn't one of them...IMO

 

[mia g]

Totally off topic....but I do not know where else to ask this question. WHY is Trica banned????

 

[dr dona]

Antisocial Personality disorder- DSM1V-tr
tHERE MUST BE EVIDENCE OF A CONDUCT DISORDER WITH ONSET BEFORE AGE 15
(1) PERVASIVE PATTERN OF DISREGARD FOR AND VIOLATION OF THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS SINCE AGE 15
and (1) failure to conform with social norms with respect to lawful behaviors
(2) DECEITFULLNESS
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and aggressiveness
(5) reckless disregard for the safety of self and others
(6) consistent irresponsibility
7. lack of remorse- three of these features must be present.
The individual should be at least 18 yrs old
Evidence of a conduct disorder before age 15
The occurence of antisocial behavior is not solely during a course of Schizophrenia or a manic episode.
oUR ALLEGED OFFENDER SEEMS TO BE ON A DIRECT PATH FOR THIS DIAGNOSIS

 

[hoppyfrog]

Totally off topic....but I do not know where else to ask this question. WHY is Trica banned????

She's not. It's a joke.

Hoppy
mod

 

[hoppyfrog]

Keep it on topic, please.

Hoppy
mod

 

[mia g]

She's not. It's a joke.

Hoppy
mod

Ok LOL I was lookingback through old post and saw some form her and then noticed BANNED, and I thought maybe I was loosing it! Ok Thanks I will go back on topic, now that I am not confused anymore

 

[bigflaw]

Antisocial Personality disorder- DSM1V-tr
tHERE MUST BE EVIDENCE OF A CONDUCT DISORDER WITH ONSET BEFORE AGE 15
(1) PERVASIVE PATTERN OF DISREGARD FOR AND VIOLATION OF THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS SINCE AGE 15
and (1) failure to conform with social norms with respect to lawful behaviors
(2) DECEITFULLNESS
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and aggressiveness
(5) reckless disregard for the safety of self and others
(6) consistent irresponsibility
7. lack of remorse- three of these features must be present.
The individual should be at least 18 yrs old
Evidence of a conduct disorder before age 15
The occurence of antisocial behavior is not solely during a course of Schizophrenia or a manic episode.
oUR ALLEGED OFFENDER SEEMS TO BE ON A DIRECT PATH FOR THIS DIAGNOSIS

I completely agree that this is the most probable diagnosis. The question is... To what degree does Antisocial Personality Disorder influence culpability under the law. I think this will be a landmark case regardless of the decision.

 

[Velouria]

Look, here is my point...

1. AB is or is not legally insane - can only be opinion unless you are the judge in the case or are sitting on her jury.

2. Facts require evidence.

3. "I think " is a perfectly acceptable thing to have in front of a post that otherwise would look like you are stating a fact.

Actually, facts don't REQUIRE evidence, they ARE evidence.

 

[Bibliophile]

Its generally known that the insanity defense is a defense of last resort. Only a minute fraction of those who attempt the defense succeed. The standard in Missouri is very, very difficult to meet. One may be a medically certified psychotic with a 20 year verifiable mental health history and not meet the legal criteria.

It would be completely impossible to provide an example of the insanity defense that was universally applicable. That said, Alyssa's defense would have to prove she has the type of mental disorder where she is completely incapable of knowing or choosing right from wrong and the incapacity to conform conduct to requirements of law.

 

[Prof]

Agreed. I will be one of the first people at the head of this parade..

Yay!

Yet I also believe Alyssa may have the type of problem that even the best mental health services can't fix. Medical science cannot yet treat personality disorders.

I am not in the mental health profession, so I would not venture a guess as to AB's condition -- she may have no mental illness, and be a selfish, egotistical brat, but she is still a child

It appears she had the best that was available. That may not be saying as much as we'd like but ---- She had grandparents who were willing to step up to the plate (many do not); she had adults that were invested in her care (many do not); she had in-hospital services, medication, group therapy, individual therapy and in-home intensive therapy. I understand you're asserting that it was not enough. I'm throwing out the possibility that no amount would have been enough.

Actually, I was asserting that we do not KNOW the nature or amount of therapy AB received

And we don't know that she didn't. I'm pretty sure she received therapy, on one level or another, for much longer than 4 to 6 weeks. Her first inpatient treatment was over two years ago.

When I see expert, published testimony on this, I will believe it -- I am not sure of ANYTHING in this case -- (pretend I'm the Missouri state slogan)

Or you could look at it another way -- I'd say there is no readily apparent evidence that the child responded to therapy.

I do look at it that way, too; either way she is still a sick child

The Division of Youth Services was never intended to treat anyone past their 21st birthday. Its "youth services." I think what Judge Beetem was saying was not so much they were inadequate, but that Alyssa's age and the nature of the crime made for a rare and heinous combination that made placement a problem..

"Green, the prosecutor, rested much of her case to try Bustamante as an adult rested on the lack of proper services in the juvenile system to treat Bustamante, which Judge Beetem upheld in his decision."

I've found that its often easy, retrospectively, to assign behaviors as warning signs. Believe it or not, if the things you mention are warning signs, there are no doubt hundreds of thousands of kids we need to lock up immediately.

I am with you as I did not at first find the electric fence video that shocking (sorry), BUT all I am saying is that I do find it shocking that if she was in "intensive therapy" they did not know that she has many of the risk factors for violence all of them in her recorded history--broken home; separation from parents; anti social parents; extremely violent father; suicide; self harm; physical violence; restlessness; difficulty concentrating; risk taking; anti authority; anti social beliefs; harsh, lax or inconsistent disipline; family conflict; and then we also have rumors of drug abuse

Here is my post where I cited the above information from the CDC and the Surgeon General
Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13 - Page 17 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Yes, if you isolate all of these things, they might not be a big deal--but what then is intensive therapy? Most intensive therapy would include the whole, and I think that is the point of going to the home

If you've spent any time at all in rural communities, you'd know most have stories to tell about when they were kids and an electric fence. Not only will kids try to get one another to touch them, boys will often trick other boys into urinating on them (as my cousins with my brother). Those with no knowledge that this is common place in a rural culture might proclaim its an early sign of sadism; but I can assure you that in the dozens upon dozens of kids I knew that did it, not one became a murderer. In fact, most of them are exceptional citizens..

I agree that touching an electric fence is not a big deal, and yes I have lived in a rural community in the middle of the country before and taught teenagers and listened to their stories
However, the three videos posted on AB's you tube showed a girl who wanted to see her brother get hurt, and asked for it over and over, and laughed in delight when they did get hurt

Teens and the new cyber-culture I'm less familiar with - but I do know in the advent of digital photography and the internet that they do some wild and wacky stuff. Most of it is for the fantasy, shock-factor; outrageous and attention getting. I'd venture to guess we could find thousands of pics much like the one that Alyssa posted and not one of the kids committed murder.

Yes, another risk factor involves the inability to separate fantasy from reality

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Bibliophile -- I enjoy discussions with you!

 

[Bibliophile]

I posted about this some time ago, but just for a data point -

The most recent case I had personal knowledge of that attempted the insanity defense was a felony case in Missouri. The accused had a 25 year + mental health history with diagnosis that included schizophrenia, bi-polar and schizo-affective. He had a history of non-compliance with meds (as most do) and had numerous hospitalizations within the preceding three years. There was a significant amount of evidence that indicated he thought he was receiving messages from God and the devil and he drew pentagrams and wrote messages all over his apartment building. While incarcerated (until his meds took affect) he laid on the floor in his cell, urinating and soiling on himself while shrieking about God and Satan.

With regard to his crime, he did not meet the defintion of legally insane.

 

[LogicalMinds]

We have been over the "insanity defense"....

thinking you are God, Joan of Arc, or thinking you were killing an "alien" are all examples of candidate for an insanity defense

I have pointed out that monster guy who stabbed his seatmate on a Greyhound bus in Canada and was eating pieces of him in front of the police when they arrived !!!!!

We had the link to the chart that shows that MO goes by the more strict standard that

hiding the body, covering up....would negate an insanity defense

there are some states that allow a more lenient version..or a "guilty but mentally ill">>> but MO is not one of them

so ...sorry...no insanity defense here

I agree that she looks so cold ..almost bored...and "above it all" in the courtroom

I think she is one dangerous person that is really a danger to society...and also very manipulative...and clever...she was able to "fool" therapists, the grandmother, teachers etc

 

[Bibliophile]

... but she is still a child

Yes, she is and that saddens me greatly.

Actually, I was asserting that we do not KNOW the nature or amount of therapy AB received

No, we will never know that. To a great extent, even testimony can't provide us with a true picture. However, I do have a great deal of familiarity with mental health and juvenile services in MO. For example - when it was reported that she was receiving therapy on an almost daily basis, one could logically deduce that she was involved in an intensive program and most likely an in-home intensive program.

When I see expert, published testimony on this, I will believe it -- I am not sure of ANYTHING in this case -- (pretend I'm the Missouri state slogan)

I don't have the reference link at my fingertips, but there were reports that she had been receiving this intensive therapy.

I do look at it that way, too; either way she is still a sick child

I understand and agree with your emphasis on child. However, I also must think about her place in the Missouri justice system. And sadly, its not just Missouri. I believe Alyssa needs to be locked away from society for a long, long time. Not just for therapy, but for the protection of society and the consequences of her crime.

"Green, the prosecutor, rested much of her case to try Bustamante as an adult rested on the lack of proper services in the juvenile system to treat Bustamante, which Judge Beetem upheld in his decision."

But what if we're asking for the impossible? What if the proper services to treat her are not available, in the juvenile system or in the adult?

I know what I'd like to be true. What I am discussing here is, all things considered, where in reality is she best placed and justice served.

BUT all I am saying is that I do find it shocking that if she was in "intensive therapy" they did not know that she has many of the risk factors for violence all of them in her recorded history

And here we agree. I think. Community mental health services severely lack good, experienced and competent professionals. I could write chapters on this.

 

[emeraldeyes85]

Yes, she is and that saddens me greatly.

No, we will never know that. To a great extent, even testimony can't provide us with a true picture. However, I do have a great deal of familiarity with mental health and juvenile services in MO. For example - when it was reported that she was receiving therapy on an almost daily basis, one could logically deduce that she was involved in an intensive program and most likely an in-home intensive program.

I don't have the reference link at my fingertips, but there were reports that she had been receiving this intensive therapy.

I understand and agree with your emphasis on child. However, I also must think about her place in the Missouri justice system. And sadly, its not just Missouri. I believe Alyssa needs to be locked away from society for a long, long time. Not just for therapy, but for the protection of society and the consequences of her crime.

But what if we're asking for the impossible? What if the proper services to treat her are not available, in the juvenile system or in the adult?

I know what I'd like to be true. What I am discussing here is, all things considered, where in reality is she best placed and justice served.

And here we agree. I think. Community mental health services severely lack good, experienced and competent professionals. I could write chapters on this.

Good point.

 

[hoppyfrog]

Keep it on topic.

I've told all of you before--and I still mean it--that I'm not allowing this thread to go off-topic. Every time it does, trouble follows.

We're not going to go off on general discussions about whether or not personality disorders are treatable and whether or not enough money is allocated to their study, or a general discussion about SSRIs.

Take it to another forum.

Every post here needs to be related directly and concretely to this particular case.

Thanks,

Hoppy

 

[emeraldeyes85]

Keep it on topic.

I've told all of you before--and I still mean it--that I'm not allowing this thread to go off-topic. Every time it does, trouble follows.

We're not going to go off on general discussions about whether or not personality disorders are treatable and whether or not enough money is allocated to their study, or a general discussion about SSRIs.

Take it to another forum.

Every post here needs to be related directly and concretely to this particular case.

Thanks,

Hoppy

Just a quick question Hoppy, are discussions of prozac and its effects off topic on this thread, if so I apologize as I wasnt aware that was the case and will not bring it up again if so.

 

[hoppyfrog]

Just a quick question Hoppy, are discussions of prozac and its effects off topic on this thread, if so I apologize as I wasnt aware that was the case and will not bring it up again if so.

AB taking Prozac and its effects on her in particular are on topic.

General discussion about Prozac and its effects are off topic.

Make sense?

Thanks,

Hoppy

 

[emeraldeyes85]

AB taking Prozac and its effects on her in particular are on topic.

General discussion about Prozac and its effects are off topic.

Make sense?

Thanks,

Hoppy

Yeap, understood sorry for any earlier infractions!