MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[JLMcKenna83]

In going back and reviewing some of the news reports, I ran across this. I knew that the explanations for the two graves were withheld. I thought perhaps the prosecution was withholding it and I was incorrect. I think this may be noteworthy.

" ... repeated objections by Bustamante's juvenile justice attorney prevented the police officer from explaining why two holes were dug. Cole County prosecutor Mark Richardson also has declined to elaborate."
​

Link to entire news story here

IMO, it might be some big bombshell reason, or they just don't want people to think that AB planned on killing 2 people.. who knows.. but I bet we'll find out more about the graves once the trial actually begins. The graves are a big part of the evidence that shows her premeditation...

 

[Csquare]

AB's principal also testified that she was a very good student. If I remember right was an A and B student.

 

[Csquare]

I think there is some misunderstanding why many of us feel she should get LWOP...

Here is what we KNOW about her therapy..she was in a residental treatment center for (wasnt it fourteen days) Well I have had a child in RTC, and it is REQUIRED to get additional counseling. RTC is pretty extensive itself. She has been treated, and I really do not see her gma placing her in RTC and then NOT contuing counseling, maybe not counseling others feel was adequate, but therapy/counseling non the less..

So fact she has had THERAPY/ Counseling.... It did not work, she killed a girl.

I (and others) do not feel like taking a gamble of this girl munipulating the system some more, getting out in say 10,20, 30 years and killing another innocent person. Since apparently therapy has not work to this point, how could anyone be SURE it will help in the future?? That is my biggest question??? The only way to KNOW she is reahbilitated, IS to let her out and WAIT AND SEE if she kills again. I am not to worried about her coming to Texas and killing someone I love personally, but another death is too many. Elizabeths death was too many.

So until someone anyone can assure the public without a doubt 100% that AB is NOT a threat, she needs to stay locked up. Because NO ONE will ever be able to assure the public she is "well". When deciding the outcome of this all we truly have to go on is her PAST..In ABs past we KNOW she has planned to murder... Lured a girl to the woods and strangled, cut and stabbed her.. THOSE are facts, we know she is capable of it... What we do not KNOW is if she is capable of being rehabilitated... and many of us do not see a reason to take the chance with another innocent life.

I will go one step farther, if one of my beloved children were capable of killing another human I would want him or her locked up for life also!!! I would love them, and visit them, but they do not deserve to walk around and lead life while another fmaily has to bury and live without whoever they killed. If in this hypothetical situation I begin to feel they were rehabilitated, I would still feel they needed to do their time, and they could help inside the prison where they belonged..

IMHO if one human is capable of killing another(accept in self defense) they do not deserve to live a free life. I do not care what their age maybe.

I do not have a problem with anyone that has more compassion for AB then I and others do. I respect others opinion, and it is apparent there are atleast two sides to these, and niether side is gonna budge on how they feel..

I have to say this is one of the best post I have read. Thank you. You sum up my feelings. I wish I was that elegant with words and I wouldn't stay in trouble.

 

[Csquare]

I would like to take a moment to touch on whether AB will get treatment if she goes to prison. Where I worked we had 4 psycologist and one chief of psy services. The inmates had access to counseling if they so desired. If they were locked up in administrative Segregation they would come by and check on them daily. There was a dr that would come in to get the meds prescribed and make sure they were right. Is this the best psy care? I can't answer that. I can tell you no matter what treatment you seek, it doesn't mean anything if the person is not 100% dedicated to that. So yes she will have help there. Does she REALLY want it? That is up to her to decide.

 

[W8nC]

AB's principal also testified that she was a very good student. If I remember right was an A and B student.

Yes, he said she was an A/B student.


And Welcome Back! We missed you.

 

[Csquare]

Yes, he said she was an A/B student.


And Welcome Back! We missed you.

Thanks. I really missed it too. I am going to be on my best behavior.

 

[W8nC]

Thanks. I really missed it too. I am going to be on my best behavior.

So where were we? LOL ...have to stay STRICTLY on topic.

I have to agree, seriously, with what Mia G said earlier. Her post was very well written and sums up my feelings so well, even down to the part that says ...

I do not have a problem with anyone that has more compassion for AB then I and others do. I respect others opinion, and it is apparent there are atleast two sides to these, and niether side is gonna budge on how they feel..

I also agree with Steph572, BBM

Thanks mia g. You explained my feelings beautifully. In addition to not wanting to gamble on whether or not she can be or has been rehabilitated, I believe that there is also the justice issue. Regardless of whether or not she is ever successfully rehabilitated, Elizabeth will remain dead and her family will continue to endure that pain and loss for the rest of their lives. In my mind I can't reconcile the life of Elizabeth only being worth 10, 20, or even 30 years of Alyssa's life whether it be in prison or a mental institution. Alive is alive, no matter where you are.

I honestly don't care where they keep her locked up (as long as they have good security) and I don't care whether or not they try to "fix" her or study her while she's there. I just want her punishment to last as long as the damage she has done. For those that think she shouldn't be held as accountable because of personality disorders, mental defects or disease, a prozac rx, whatever... Fine, start her off in a high-security mental institution. Once you've determined she's all better and can be returned to society, then send her arse to prison to begin her punishment.

...another very well written post, stating what, IMO, a lot of us believe. Thanks Steph!!

 

[Csquare]

I have no problem with her attempting to be rehabilitated. BUT I also feel that she needs to serve some serious prison time. What worries me is that she can be given all the help in the world but sometimes you can't fix things. We ask has she been given the best help there is? There is no way humanly possible to answer that. I bought me a Dodge Ram P/U. It is the best truck out there. Have I driven a Ford? NO. Have I driven a Chevy? NO. So I may never know if mine is the best because I don't want those others. Hope that makes sense.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I might be able to help you -- IMO "that type of reasoning" is called "Ad Baculum"
Although, IMO there is really a whole line of "reasoning" that goes with that particular statement, repeated by many time after time all over the internet: So it could also be considered IMO the Ad Populum, Ad Baculum, false dilemma because it seems to me that it is a popular appeal to fear in an either/or argument
Here is the typical line of "reasoning" I have seen:
AB has to be put in prison for the rest of her life (or in some comments -- executed) BECAUSE (here comes the "reasoning") 1. if AB is not in prison she will be set free into the world 2. if AB is not in prison she will come and live in everyone's neighborhood 3. if AB is not in prison she will kill again (someone close to you)

IMO and I can admit to being wrong

I would add that anyone who questions whether AB should get LWOP or not is automatically thought of as a "supporter of AB" and because of the evident either/or nature of things in this internet world anyone who questions LWOP for AB is assumed to be not a supporter of justice for Elizabeth and her family and -- a whole web of which I am not going to even try to understand

Makes sense, Emmy is my wife BTW thanks for being nice to her while I was gone.:blushing:


I understand that a few of us are very passionate in how we feel about some of these matters and that is healthy and I dont think any of us were guilty of personally attacking eachother I think we just let our passion take us a little too far off topic and we needed some time to think it over, we are back and lets all be good to eachother.

Please understand that I am in full agreement that if she is found guilty she needs to serve some serious time confined and away from society to think about what she did and how henious her behavior was, I just prefer she do that time in a mental facility where she can work with medical professionals everyday to help her AND SOCIETY AS A WHOLE understand what made her do this. WE NEED ANSWERS TO THAT QUESTION to prevent this in the future and IMO we wont get those answers if she is rotting away in a cold dark prison cell. She will just be another statistic and I dont want her to be that, I want her to be someone we can all learn something from, someone who can teach us why someone like her became what she became. I do not believe this young lady was born evil, she was taught this behavior, perhaps unwittingly but nonetheless she learned it from those around her and she can unlearn it if we take the time to teach her otherwise.

 

[W8nC]

In a way, I feel that whatever therapy/treatment she's received in the past, is a non-issue. Whatever it was, it didn't work. Don't know what form it took, or who paid for it, or how long it lasted, still didn't work.

Also, regarding future treatment, it will be no better than the taxpayers of this state are willing to provide. Someone earlier posted that whatever-it-is that's wrong with Alyssa may be treatable, but psyche professionals are not willing to try and there isn't much or any research being done, in regard to treatment. This says to me that realistically, there's not a way to fix her, regardless of what we spend.

There's the ideal world, where a treatment is available, and possible, where Alyssa is given all the therapy, support, and/or drugs she needs, and then there's the REAL world, where she gets what she gets.

 

[Csquare]

In a way, I feel that whatever therapy/treatment she's received in the past, is a non-issue. Whatever it was, it didn't work. Don't know what form it took, or who paid for it, or how long it lasted, still didn't work.

Also, regarding future treatment, it will be no better than the taxpayers of this state are willing to provide. Someone earlier posted that whatever-it-is that's wrong with Alyssa may be treatable, but psyche professionals are not willing to try and there isn't much or any research being done, in regard to treatment. This says to me that realistically, there's not a way to fix her, regardless of what we spend.

There's the ideal world, where a treatment is available, and possible, where Alyssa is given all the therapy, support, and/or drugs she needs, and then there's the REAL world, where she gets what she gets.

Very well put. I know from experience that some of the counselors in Prison actually care. But they can only do so much. I think AB has spent her whole life fooling people to thinking nothing is wrong.

 

[LadyRider]

If AB learned or was subjected to brutality, wouldn't that possibly mean the other siblings were too. And these siblings would also know of her past behavior and mental breakdowns, are they receiving therapy or did they in the past. I mean it has been discussed, the parents have issues, what about the siblings?

If this is wrong for me to ask, just delete.

 

[LadyRider]

My other question is does anyone know what the issue was between the 2 families prior? I read this in a newspaper report, but don't remember which one, and honestly it could have been a comment posted in one of the latest newspaper articles.

 

[Csquare]

My other question is does anyone know what the issue was between the 2 families prior? I read this in a newspaper report, but don't remember which one, and honestly it could have been a comment posted in one of the latest newspaper articles.

From what I was told was the families were cordial towards each other but IMO it wouldn't be to the point of entertaining each others familes over dinner or soicaily.

 

[mominjc]

I would like to take a moment to touch on whether AB will get treatment if she goes to prison. Where I worked we had 4 psycologist and one chief of psy services. The inmates had access to counseling if they so desired. If they were locked up in administrative Segregation they would come by and check on them daily. There was a dr that would come in to get the meds prescribed and make sure they were right. Is this the best psy care? I can't answer that. I can tell you no matter what treatment you seek, it doesn't mean anything if the person is not 100% dedicated to that. So yes she will have help there. Does she REALLY want it? That is up to her to decide.

Thanks for the info. I was wondering what/who would b available for AB in prison.

Oh.... & welcome back old man!

 

[W8nC]

My other question is does anyone know what the issue was between the 2 families prior? I read this in a newspaper report, but don't remember which one, and honestly it could have been a comment posted in one of the latest newspaper articles.

All I kow about the relationship between the two families, besides the fact that their two young daughters were friends, is what ILC posted. His post, IMO, implied that there was some tension between them after Elizabeth went missing, but I don't recall anything that said there was a problem before that. However, I didn't get the impression that the families were close at all.

 

[PAXIMUS]

In a way, I feel that whatever therapy/treatment she's received in the past, is a non-issue. Whatever it was, it didn't work. Don't know what form it took, or who paid for it, or how long it lasted, still didn't work.

Also, regarding future treatment, it will be no better than the taxpayers of this state are willing to provide. Someone earlier posted that whatever-it-is that's wrong with Alyssa may be treatable, but psyche professionals are not willing to try and there isn't much or any research being done, in regard to treatment. This says to me that realistically, there's not a way to fix her, regardless of what we spend.

There's the ideal world, where a treatment is available, and possible, where Alyssa is given all the therapy, support, and/or drugs she needs, and then there's the REAL world, where she gets what she gets.

And as long as we, collectively, are willing to settle for the half assed real world way of doing things and refuse to fight for the ideals then it will always remain the same. Sure, I may be Don Quixote fighting windmills but I wont stop just because it is unpopular and enough people are not willing to join the cause to make it a winning one instead of a lost one.


It is the mission of each true knight...
His duty... nay, his privilege!
To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go;
To right the unrightable wrong.

To love, pure and chaste, from afar,
To try, when your arms are too weary,
To reach the unreachable star!

This is my Quest to follow that star,
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far,
To fight for the right
Without question or pause,
To be willing to march into hell
For a heavenly cause!

And I know, if I'll only be true
To this glorious Quest,
That my heart will lie peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest.

And the world will be better for this,
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
To reach the unreachable stars!





BUT I REGRESS back to the case, when is our next hearing and what is it?

 

[LadyRider]

All I kow about the relationship between the two families, besides the fact that their two young daughters were friends, is what ILC posted. His post, IMO, implied that there was some tension between them after Elizabeth went missing, but I don't recall anything that said there was a problem before that. However, I didn't get the impression that the families were close at all.

I do remember ILC's post, but then I dismissed it due to the happenings here and his departure. But, I know I read this, again, this past week in a newspaper. I do know it was not here, cause I don't read other forums, only here and newspaper articles.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Very well put. I know from experience that some of the counselors in Prison actually care. But they can only do so much. I think AB has spent her whole life fooling people to thinking nothing is wrong.

My wife is a therapist and Dr of Psychiatry, she posts here as Emeraldeyes85 and she has worked extensiely with some of these prison counselors and while some of them do indeed care very few of them have any real academic training or expertise, many of them community college graduates with degrees in family studies, hardly the kind of education and know how that is needed to help someone like AB. She needs real medical professionals not a high school guidance counselor.

 

[W8nC]

Makes sense, Emmy is my wife BTW thanks for being nice to her while I was gone.:blushing:


I understand that a few of us are very passionate in how we feel about some of these matters and that is healthy and I dont think any of us were guilty of personally attacking eachother I think we just let our passion take us a little too far off topic and we needed some time to think it over, we are back and lets all be good to eachother.

Please understand that I am in full agreement that if she is found guilty she needs to serve some serious time confined and away from society to think about what she did and how henious her behavior was, I just prefer she do that time in a mental facility where she can work with medical professionals everyday to help her AND SOCIETY AS A WHOLE understand what made her do this. WE NEED ANSWERS TO THAT QUESTION to prevent this in the future and IMO we wont get those answers if she is rotting away in a cold dark prison cell. She will just be another statistic and I dont want her to be that, I want her to be someone we can all learn something from, someone who can teach us why someone like her became what she became. I do not believe this young lady was born evil, she was taught this behavior, perhaps unwittingly but nonetheless she learned it from those around her and she can unlearn it if we take the time to teach her otherwise.

Yes, let's all be good to each other!! We have different opinions, but we need to keep in mind, no opinion stated here will really have any tangible affect on the outcome of this tragic situation. In the end, we aren't the jury.

We agree that she should serve some serious time. We agree about wanting to understand why she did this. We agree about wanting to prevent this from happening again. Seems we have more in common than we all thought we did, right?

Can we also agree to disagree agreeably and to show respect for each other, for the families who are suffering (both of them), and for LE who have a really tough job to do every day?

I appreciate all opinions, and have even had my mind changed by other's posts......once, lol.....but appreciate them, all the same. A variety of backgrounds, knowledge bases, and opinions makes this the most interesting forum I've found. Thanks, everyone!