MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[PAXIMUS]

I'm a Pediatrician and must admit that I am really concerned when a child or adolescent wants to kill to see what it feels like. With this
accused teen and the young man who killed his younger brother the lack of remorse or any identification with their young victims is a red flag.
In freudian terms they have no superego. I don't feel they can be rehabilitated- Its gone too far. I hate to think about putting these teens in prison for life but sentencing them as juveniles ( prison till age 21 ) isn't a good idea. Lack of remorse for others is difficult to address in any forms of psycotherapy.

As a physician can you really make that statement without an acutal examination first? I dont mind anyone posting their opinion but to make a broad sweeping statement like that without ever having seen her medical file or knowing her medical history doesnt seem right IMO.

On the other hand I do not KNOW that she can be rehabilitated but I sure would like us to give it a try before locking her up and throwing away the keys.

 

[LogicalMinds]

A problem with "rehabilitate" and release her is that success will be measured if she doesn't kill/hurt someone again....and failure?? Failure is not something I think can be risked

~~
as for the "criminal" connection between the 2 families....both Elizabeth and Allyssa had dads in prison but I am not sure there would be a real connection over that...
the younger sister is Allyssa's half sister, the dad in prison is not hers

I feel sorry for little Elizabeth...a girly girl who loved pink, who loved to dress up her little pets ....so sad

I am sure the dad's problems were hard on her

but I am not sure that she and Allysa had much in common (age difference)

I personally feel that Allysa "chose" poor Elizabeth simply cause she was an easy target

as I have stated about Michael Hernandez who chose Jaime cause he "could"...Jamie was small, non athletic and "looked up" to Michael

I think it is simply more of her sociopath/psychopath mentality to choose an "easy" victim and poor little Elizabeth filled the bill

 

[eyes4crime]

As a physician can you really make that statement without an acutal examination first? I dont mind anyone posting their opinion but to make a broad sweeping statement like that without ever having seen her medical file or knowing her medical history doesnt seem right IMO.

On the other hand I do not KNOW that she can be rehabilitated but I sure would like us to give it a try before locking her up and throwing away the keys.

I know there are no empathy shots a doctor can give a child that might do away with homicidal fantasies, but what the heck do you think Pediatricians do in their careers?

Usually the Pediatrician is the first professional a parent confides in. Often times, they are told about possible sexual abuse, allergies, problems in school, and childhood anomalies that don't seem quite right to the parent.

Pediatricians can and do order special consults with psychiatrists, therapists, and other such specialists having the specialty of concern. They are often the front line between an abused child and DCFS. They see the infant/child/adolescent regularly and are mandated reporters of abuse.

What kind of exam do you think this murderous child should get? My bet is that any pediatrician listening to a child talk about murderous fantasies, such as wondering what it's like to kill someone, they would talk with the child and order a stat consult with a Psychologist for a diagnostic assessment....and I mean stat!!!

ETA: I don't appreciate anyone who fails to give credit to the first line of medical care for a child - the pediatrician. All just my opinion

 

[Prof]

As for some claims that AB had Comprehensive Treatment and Therapy, I still doubt that as they had NO idea of what her daily life was like
Here is a good link to a description of what Comprehensive Psychiatric Evaluation involves from
The American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry

More importantly, IMO, the experts who have the most authority to speak to AB's ability to be "fixed" or not, believe that there is hope for adolescents like AB who murder

In the organization's Policy on Juvenile Death Sentences it states
"The United States remains the only country in the world that has not yet ratified the UN Convention, Article 37a, which states that 'Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of release shall be imposed for offenses committed by persons below eighteen years of age.'"

and "In many instances, these juveniles have not received adequate diagnostic assessments or interventions."

and
"The philosophy of the juvenile court has always been rehabilitation. This goal is now made more attainable than ever by improved assessment tools, new effective community-intervention programs, and treatments for underlying psychiatric disorders. However, such efforts are often undermined by the diversion of scarce dollars into incarceration, long sentences, and the death penalty rather than into earlier intervention efforts and strengthening the juvenile justice system so that it can effectively respond to dangerous and/or repeat youth offenders to ensure public safety"

Here is the general link to the site
http://www.aacap.org/


Thanks for reading

 

[LogicalMinds]

Well the death penalty is off the table so once again that is a moot point..it is not allowed in the us for minors and that is from the Supreme Court

so yes, we do have LWOP for minors but no death penalty

 

[Prof]

Disclaimercity: I do not mean to offend anyone, but I admit that I do not give any opinions expressed here that are not backed up with facts much more than a skim, it does not matter if I happen to agree or not, or what the poster proffers up as profession; In fact, I get excited when I see an opinion that I do not agree with backed up by published factual evidence And for instance, I have an intimate glimpse into the teen mind through literally hundreds of thousands teen essays read (HS and HE) --but I still would not proffer my opinion on the teen viewpoint without credible back up in the form of reasonable and sound research

I respect pediatricians, but I would not count on them for a psychiatric diagnosis that signs AB's life away -- sorry, and believe me I want her locked up for a long time--but I cannot sign her life away either

Here are the hoops academically and professionally one must go through to become a child psych
(btw let's not disrepect their profession) http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/the_child_and_adolescent_psychiatrist

 

[Prof]

Well the death penalty is off the table so once again that is a moot point..it is not allowed in the us for minors and that is from the Supreme Court

so yes, we do have LWOP for minors but no death penalty

I never made the DP a point -- the point is that they take a stand against LWOP too -- which HAS been a LENGTHLY topic of conversation in this forum for AB's punishment

 

[kkmiami]

I don't think it really matters how she, AB, feels about it. It changes nothing, Elizabeth is still dead. That is no doubt a FACT.

The manner in which she was killed was not sudden. It was not a gunshot or blow to the head. It was suffocating, choking and slitting her throat. That took time and forethought. If once she started she did not enjoy it, she would have stopped.
She knew what she was going to do, before she did it, she had 2 graves ready 1st strangled her, then that wasnt enough she turned around and then slit her throat, and as poor Elizabeth was dieing, she decided to stab her and watch her die slowly, that is torture

 

[PAXIMUS]

I know there are no empathy shots a doctor can give a child that might do away with homicidal fantasies, but what the heck do you think Pediatricians do in their careers?

Usually the Pediatrician is the first professional a parent confides in. Often times, they are told about possible sexual abuse, allergies, problems in school, and childhood anomalies that don't seem quite right to the parent.

Pediatricians can and do order special consults with psychiatrists, therapists, and other such specialists having the specialty of concern. They are often the front line between an abused child and DCFS. They see the infant/child/adolescent regularly and are mandated reporters of abuse.

What kind of exam do you think this murderous child should get? My bet is that any pediatrician listening to a child talk about murderous fantasies, such as wondering what it's like to kill someone, they would talk with the child and order a stat consult with a Psychologist for a diagnostic assessment....and I mean stat!!!

ETA: I don't appreciate anyone who fails to give credit to the first line of medical care for a child - the pediatrician. All just my opinion

I am sure thats all true but I have never known or heard of a doctor who will issue a sweeping diagnoses without first examning a patient and reading their medical files and learning their medical history.

I was just wondering if this poster here was speaking professionally or offering an opinion. Because I dont see how any doctor could say that AB cannot be rehabilitated if they did not examine them themselves and know their history.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Disclaimercity: I do not mean to offend anyone, but I admit that I do not give any opinions expressed here that are not backed up with facts much more than a skim, it does not matter if I happen to agree or not, or what the poster proffers up as profession; In fact, I get excited when I see an opinion that I do not agree with backed up by published factual evidence And for instance, I have an intimate glimpse into the teen mind through literally hundreds of thousands teen essays read (HS and HE) --but I still would not proffer my opinion on the teen viewpoint without credible back up in the form of reasonable and sound research

I respect pediatricians, but I would not count on them for a psychiatric diagnosis that signs AB's life away -- sorry, and believe me I want her locked up for a long time--but I cannot sign her life away either

Here are the hoops academically and professionally one must go through to become a child psych
(btw let's not disrepect their profession) http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/the_child_and_adolescent_psychiatrist

Exactly. Well said.

 

[eyes4crime]

I am sure thats all true but I have never known or heard of a doctor who will issue a sweeping disgnoses without first examning a patient and reading their medical files and learning their medical history.

I was just wondering if this poster here was speaking professionally or offering an opinion. Because I dont see how any doctor could say that AB cannot be rehabilitated if they did not examine them themselves and know their history.

I didn't see any diagnosis by the pediatrician - what I saw is 'I think'...'I feel'...Opinions - certainly no diagnosis that I could find.

There is no way anyone can say this child has empathy - empathy along with anxiety is what a conscience is all about. mho and if a child has empathy along with a conscience, there is usually NO longings or fantasies to murder MHO. Trust me, I don't believe in the death penalty - but research indicates this kind of murderous action taken by a child is NOT treatable. Take that as my opinion because I know most on here do not think much of Dr. Robert Hare and his empirically researched diagnosis of 'psychopathy'. However, if you really want to have some insight - try reading his book 'Without Conscience' along with all the other books regarding the personality disorder of psychopathy.

For those who want to have an opinion that pediatricians are not educated enough to send a child to a consult - please provide a link. I've worked with pediatricians as a professional, and they are certainly capable of making a referral to a psychologist for a diagnostic workup - and if it is thought meds are needed, a consult with a pediatric psychiatrist.

Has it gotten to the point where we need to put our license(s) as our avitar?

 

[imamaze]

Once again I'm going to post our TOS, and to remind everyone that we are all giving opinions here, none of it is all fact so please be respectful of everyones views/opinions here. If you disagree its fine, but don't make other members feel that there post or opinion is less than yours, everyone's opinion here is good. We are a discussion board and part of that is giving opinions. Thanks!


Terms of Service: Short Plain Language Version

Terms of Service - Short, Plain Language Version

We have a detailed, formal Terms of Service (TOS) posted separately, and that TOS is what you will be held to as a member here. It's long and detailed because it has to be in the world we live in, and you are expected to read it, understand it and abide by it. However, we can sum it up as follows:

1) Be a decent human being;
2) Treat your fellow posters as the decent human beings they are;
3) Keep in mind that whatever you post will likely live on forever, so think before you press "Submit Reply".
4) It's a big world. People will disagree with you. You will disagree with them. This can be done with respect, and that's what we expect.

 

[imamaze]

I don't care if someone doesn't have in your opinion the facts to back up what they are saying please don't put down other members opinions based on that. We are here for opinions and some of it may be based just on our life experiences. It doesn't make it less than anyone elses opinion here so if your going to disagree please don't put a post down from that reasoning.

Now back on topic

 

[human]

I didn't see any diagnosis by the pediatrician - what I saw is 'I think'...'I feel'...Opinions - certainly no diagnosis that I could find.

There is no way anyone can say this child has empathy - empathy along with anxiety is what a conscience is all about. mho and if a child has empathy along with a conscience, there is usually NO longings or fantasies to murder MHO. Trust me, I don't believe in the death penalty - but research indicates this kind of murderous action taken by a child is NOT treatable. Take that as my opinion because I know most on here do not think much of Dr. Robert Hare and his empirically researched diagnosis of 'psychopathy'. However, if you really want to have some insight - try reading his book 'Without Conscience' along with all the other books regarding the personality disorder of psychopathy.

For those who want to have an opinion that pediatricians are not educated enough to send a child to a consult - please provide a link. I've worked with pediatricians as a professional, and they are certainly capable of making a referral to a psychologist for a diagnostic workup - and if it is thought meds are needed, a consult with a pediatric psychiatrist.

Has it gotten to the point where we need to put our license(s) as our avitar?

I, for one, am very interested in learning more about Dr. Hare's book. When I have the stomach for it and time, I fully intend on reading it. Thanks for telling me (us) about him.

 

[LadyRider]

Can AB's attorney request thru the judge/court that AB be given or taken for mental issues/evaluations at any time or should AB become agitated? And if so, does the proscutor become involved or made aware of it and have access to the recorded notes, lab, & etc?

 

[mia g]

Here is the article from court talking about Alyssas therapy.

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/nov/18/teen-certified-adult-olten-case/

She has been on the anti-depressant Prozac since 2007, and after a 10-day stay at Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center after the suicide attempt, she was evaluated nearly daily on an outpatient basis.

Bustamante and her younger siblings are under the guardianship of their maternal grandmother and have been since 2002. David Cook, chief juvenile officer and director of court services staff for Cole County, testified that Bustamante received extensive supervision from her grandparents and other family members and intensive treatment for her depression.

This testimony from the chief juvenile officer is where we get the proof/fact/evidence that Alyssa had intensive therapy, and was evaluated "nearly daily" as an out pateint. It does not say weekly, or bimonthly or monthly, it says nearly "daily". Maybe in the trial exactly what KIND and WHERE will come out. That is why I believe people did all they could do. Now maybe AB did not participate in the therapy, or maybe she munipulated the therapy. But fact remains she had therapy, and the fact remains EVEN WITH the therapy she murdered an innocent child.

I know Pathways Behavioral Center was mentioned, but since I can not find the article that mentions that therpay specifically I wont post the information I found on them.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I didn't see any diagnosis by the pediatrician - what I saw is 'I think'...'I feel'...Opinions - certainly no diagnosis that I could find.

There is no way anyone can say this child has empathy - empathy along with anxiety is what a conscience is all about. mho and if a child has empathy along with a conscience, there is usually NO longings or fantasies to murder MHO. Trust me, I don't believe in the death penalty - but research indicates this kind of murderous action taken by a child is NOT treatable. Take that as my opinion because I know most on here do not think much of Dr. Robert Hare and his empirically researched diagnosis of 'psychopathy'. However, if you really want to have some insight - try reading his book 'Without Conscience' along with all the other books regarding the personality disorder of psychopathy.

For those who want to have an opinion that pediatricians are not educated enough to send a child to a consult - please provide a link. I've worked with pediatricians as a professional, and they are certainly capable of making a referral to a psychologist for a diagnostic workup - and if it is thought meds are needed, a consult with a pediatric psychiatrist.

Has it gotten to the point where we need to put our license(s) as our avitar?

Not at all feel free to say whatever you want it is just good to know whether someone is stating an opinion or fact.

 

[Prof]

Of course a doctor is educated enough to send a patient for a consult -- I am not sure what prompted that statement, but I hope it was not my post as I never suggested that -- generations of my family are in the medical field --(I'm the odd duck) and I have the utmost respect for all involved

I am interested in learning about psychopathy, but I am not sure I have seen anywhere that AB was diagnosed

David Cook testified " “There may not be a definite diagnosis” www.columbiatribune.com/.../teenager-indicted-in-slaying-of-9-year-old-girl/

And my point is only that until there is a diagnosis, I cannot have an opinion on whether or not AB can be "fixed" (and I really don't like using "fixed" or "broken" for a human being)

I would not come here if I did not want to read diverse opinions on this case

 

[eyes4crime]

Not at all feel free to say whatever you want it is just good to know whether someone is stating an opinion or fact.

Here's a hint Paximus - if you read a comment and you see
I think
I feel
could be
maybe
my opinion
my guess
my opinion only (MOO)
it seems
it could be
perhaps
only my opinion
just my opinion
just a guess
can't provide a link but it seems like....

chances are it's an opinion...MOO

 

[Prof]

Here is the article from court talking about Alyssas therapy.

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/nov/18/teen-certified-adult-olten-case/

She has been on the anti-depressant Prozac since 2007, and after a 10-day stay at Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center after the suicide attempt, she was evaluated nearly daily on an outpatient basis.

Bustamante and her younger siblings are under the guardianship of their maternal grandmother and have been since 2002. David Cook, chief juvenile officer and director of court services staff for Cole County, testified that Bustamante received extensive supervision from her grandparents and other family members and intensive treatment for her depression.

This testimony from the chief juvenile officer is where we get the proof/fact/evidence that Alyssa had intensive therapy, and was evaluated "nearly daily" as an out pateint. It does not say weekly, or bimonthly or monthly, it says nearly "daily". Maybe in the trial exactly what KIND and WHERE will come out. That is why I believe people did all they could do. Now maybe AB did not participate in the therapy, or maybe she munipulated the therapy. But fact remains she had therapy, and the fact remains EVEN WITH the therapy she murdered an innocent child.

I know Pathways Behavioral Center was mentioned, but since I can not find the article that mentions that therpay specifically I wont post the information I found on them.

Here is one article that mentions "Pathways" in the report of the 11/18 court testimony:

http://www.komu.com/satellite/Satel...4c70b769/07ae129e-80ce-0971-0113-e864f8522814

I would love to see the information you have on them or your opinion of them


I would like to know the "kind" and "where" too, but what I questioned previously was the "time frame" for all of this therapy, because for instance as stated in the http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/nov/19/teenager-indicted-in-slaying-of-9-year-old-girl/
Columbia Tribune article

"In 2007, Cook said, Bustamante attempted suicide, prompting a 10-day stay at the Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center. Follow-up treatment included a prescription for the anti-depressant Prozac and near-daily meetings with counselors. The treatment was primarily focused on her tendencies toward depression and self-mutilation — not her potential for homicidal tendencies, said Cook and Kurt Valentine, her juvenile court
counsel."

BBM I wondered how long "follow up" treatment lasts

I am curious if she was still in "near daily" treatment the week Elizabeth was murdered?

"Pathways "Pathways' comprehensive children's psychiatric services range from brief individual, group and family counseling that deal with issues such as depression and anxiety to long-term care and support for children with serious emotional disturbances."

http://www.pathwaysonline.org/services/psychChildrens.htm

BBM Okay, and David Cook was reported to have testified "Bustamante is described in the documents [notes and analysis by Bustamante’s therapists] as a troubled, angst-ridden teen, but not extraordinarily so. "

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/nov/19/teenager-indicted-in-slaying-of-9-year-old-girl/

BBM I have not read any quotes from David Cook that states she was in therapy for two years, or two weeks-- If you or anyone else has, I would appreciate any help --