MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[Csquare]

The point I am trying to make is this. IT does not matter if AB has the BMW of therapists. IF she does not desire to be fixed we are wasting time and money. I agree study her and see what we can learn. As far as education goes the ones I worked with had much more than a CC degree.

 

[W8nC]

I respectfully disagree......

I'm aware that MO doesn't provide top-of-the-line mental healthcare for inmates, but high school guidance counselors? No offense to HSGC, but IMO that's kind of disrespectful to the mental health professionals who work in the prison system.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Yes, let's all be good to each other!! We have different opinions, but we need to keep in mind, no opinion stated here will really have any tangible affect on the outcome of this tragic situation. In the end, we aren't the jury.

We agree that she should serve some serious time. We agree about wanting to understand why she did this. We agree about wanting to prevent this from happening again. Seems we have more in common than we all thought we did, right?

Can we also agree to disagree agreeably and to show respect for each other, for the families who are suffering (both of them), and for LE who have a really tough job to do every day?

I appreciate all opinions, and have even had my mind changed by other's posts......once, lol.....but appreciate them, all the same. A variety of backgrounds, knowledge bases, and opinions makes this the most interesting forum I've found. Thanks, everyone!

Honestly I think we have all been respectful to eachother, I know that a few of us got time outs last week but that wasnt because we personally attacked eachother and the record will show that and the MOD even told me that, it was because we were veering off topic about things that did relate to the case but not to the point that the MOD wanted. It wasnt a matter of disrespecting eachother at all really.


As for my comments about prison counselors my wife and I have worked with many of them in my state and I have found most of them to have good intentions but heavy case loads that prevent them from giving the time needed to really make a difference and I also stand by my comments that the ones I have worked with do not have the education and professional training needed to work with people like AB. Most of the counselors in prisons are working with those who have substance abuse problems and things of that nature and I have not met any who have the professional expertise to deal with people who suffer from axis II personality disorders and the like. NOT trying to be disespectful at all I am only telling you what my experience with them is and my experience is extensive as I spend about half of my day every day I am at work in prisons talking to these counselors.

I also know some of you have taken issue with my comments about LE. I have great respect for the men and women who put their lives on the line everyday to protect and serve, HOWEVER in my line of work I get to see a side of LE that most of you do not and they are not above reproach, many of them will break the law if that is what they have to do to make their case and it is my job to call them to task for that, and yes, some of them act like goons, not all of them but enough that it is a problem that people in my profession need to be mindful of and expose.

 

[Bibliophile]

I respectfully disagree......

I'm aware that MO doesn't provide top-of-the-line mental healthcare for inmates, but high school guidance counselors? No offense to HSGC, but IMO that's kind of disrespectful to the mental health professionals who work in the prison system.

I'll chime in here as well.

In general, treatment and care for the seriously mentally ill is lacking everywhere in the United States. That said ...

DOC (Dept of Corrections), like a variety of other institutions, employs both professionals and paraprofessionals. You can check at the Office of Admin website for the state of Missouri but the qualifications for DOC aren't any worse, and may in fact be better, than the qualifications for treatment workers at DYS (division of youth services).

My point is - if you are specifically discussing the quality of therapy and treatment, and comparing adult vs juvenile institutions, its going to be about the same for Alyssa no matter where she goes.

 

[mia g]

I have been trying to look into the diffrent places Alyssa could be sent.
Mental hospital vs prison.. Can a local please tell me where Alyssa would be housed in each scenerio..if she is sentenced to prison...or if she got sentenced to a mental hospital. (IE here in Texas we have mental hosptials that are a divisionj of the department of corrections..does Mo. ??)
What are the names of the possible units and hospitals??

 

[mia g]

My other question is does anyone know what the issue was between the 2 families prior? I read this in a newspaper report, but don't remember which one, and honestly it could have been a comment posted in one of the latest newspaper articles.

I have wondered this myself. I also wondered if there were any connections between the criminals in both sides of the family ( AB parents and EO dad and brother)

 

[Bibliophile]

I have been trying to look into the diffrent places Alyssa could be sent.
Mental hospital vs prison.. Can a local please tell me where Alyssa would be housed in each scenerio..if she is sentenced to prison...or if she got sentenced to a mental hospital. (IE here in Texas we have mental hosptials that are a divisionj of the department of corrections..does Mo. ??)
What are the names of the possible units and hospitals??

The only way she would be sent to a mental hospital would be if she is found not guilty by reason of insanity. For mental health services, Missouri is divided into districts. Because she is in Cole Co., she would go to Fulton State Hospital. It is operated jointly by the Dept of Corrections and The Dept of Mental Health.

Here is the website - http://www.dmh.missouri.gov/fulton/index.htm

 

[Prof]

I found an interesting article titled "Did You Know? MH3 and MH4 Can Help"
in the Mental Health of America Eastern Missouri periodical here: "Street Talk" by the psychologist and the Chief of Mental Health Services for the Missouri Department of Corrections. (He's held the position for about a year and a half, and interestingly enough, he used to work in Jefferson City at St Mary's Health Center Mental Health Services, and before that he focused on children with a variety of disorders -anxiety, post traumatic, adjustment)

He asserts "The Missouri Department of Corrections has approximately 300,000 mental health contacts yearly (psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, social workers, nurses, activity therapists). Within the Department of Corrections, we have specialized mental health units for offenders with developmental disabilities and chronic mental illness. "

IMO This presents at least some hope that AB will get viable mental health treatment if she is found guilty and sent to prison


I also found on the Mental Health of America Eastern Missouri site a fun (IMO as I scored high ) quiz on mental health myths here : Mental Health Myths


WB Pax, and I enjoyed your wife's posts; I hope she will continue to post

 

[Prof]

The only way she would be sent to a mental hospital would be if she is found not guilty by reason of insanity. For mental health services, Missouri is divided into districts. Because she is in Cole Co., she would go to Fulton State Hospital. It is operated jointly by the Dept of Corrections and The Dept of Mental Health.

Here is the website - http://www.dmh.missouri.gov/fulton/index.htm

MO has the NGBD Not Guilty by Mental Defect or Disease, and I posted links and information on this here:

Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13 - Page 21 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Prof]

My other question is does anyone know what the issue was between the 2 families prior? I read this in a newspaper report, but don't remember which one, and honestly it could have been a comment posted in one of the latest newspaper articles.

I do know that ILC foisted his opinion that there were issues between the two families before Elizabeth was murdered -- and I am pretty sure a ghost of that post still exists in thread 4 or 5 of this case -- if I take another break from grading, I will find it

If you can remember any key words that might have been used in this article or comment to an article, I can find it -- but I really stopped reading comments to news articles on this case a while back

 

[JLMcKenna83]

BUT I REGRESS back to the case, when is our next hearing and what is it?

RSBM..

In February.

 

[Prof]

Official Manual, State of Missouri 2009–2010 Exec Dept of Mental Health

 

[Prof]

And as long as we, collectively, are willing to settle for the half assed real world way of doing things and refuse to fight for the ideals then it will always remain the same. Sure, I may be Don Quixote fighting windmills but I wont stop just because it is unpopular and enough people are not willing to join the cause to make it a winning one instead of a lost one.

BUT I REGRESS back to the case, when is our next hearing and what is it?

I hope you do not mind, but I clipped out the DQ quote

I am not here for any popularity contest either lol

Ahem--to answer your question, it is a status hearing 2/16/10 9 am

but according to KLPR
"Judge Patricia Joyce asked if there were other motions King wanted heard, but he said no. The next court hearing is a status conference scheduled for February 16 at 9 a.m. However, King could ask that his motion for psychiatric treatment for Bustamante be heard sooner. "

The article goes on and includes
"Cole County Prosecutor Mark Richardson said it could take up to a year to prepare for the trial. 'As always we hope that a trial moves forward promptly because the victims have a right to get a decision out of the court system so they can move on with their lives,' he said adding, 'although many say they will never get over what has happened, especially the loss of a child.'"

 

[Prof]

If AB learned or was subjected to brutality, wouldn't that possibly mean the other siblings were too. And these siblings would also know of her past behavior and mental breakdowns, are they receiving therapy or did they in the past. I mean it has been discussed, the parents have issues, what about the siblings?

If this is wrong for me to ask, just delete.

This is a good question, and IMO related to this case and not wrong to ask, but I don't think we have any answers or will have any answers

All we know is that AB's bio dad was convicted of 3 felony assaults in Missouri, but this was around the same time the bio mom was with another man long enough to conceive the youngest child (Elizabeth's playmate) AND that same year it has been reported by MO news agencies the gm had guardianship of AB and the brothers in California

IMO the problems were not isolated to one or two generations

Quite convoluted

We do not really know the quantity or the quality of the brothers exposure to the parents either

I am going to guess that the youngest had about 4 years with her mother (?), but only because MO court records show her grandmother filed for guardianship in 2007, and the youngest has a different bio dad than AB and her brothers--another absent bio dad, I presume

I would hope that now they receive intensive family therapy!

 

[LogicalMinds]

I'm a Pediatrician and must admit that I am really concerned when a child or adolescent wants to kill to see what it feels like. With this
accused teen and the young man who killed his younger brother the lack of remorse or any identification with their young victims is a red flag.
In freudian terms they have no superego. I don't feel they can be rehabilitated- Its gone too far. I hate to think about putting these teens in prison for life but sentencing them as juveniles ( prison till age 21 ) isn't a good idea. Lack of remorse for others is difficult to address in any forms of psycotherapy.

Hi Welcome to Websleuths Dr Dona..

I really agree with you

have you heard of the case of Michael Hernandez who killed his friend Jamie Gough when they were 14? Stabbed him to death in the boys room...cause he wanted to...Michael had career plans...to be a serial killer...and had lists of people he wanted to kill, plans and "drawings"....he finally settled on Jaime cause he was small and shy and looked up to Michael

http://www.justnews.com/news/17932520/detail.html

if you google Michael Hernandez and Jaime Gough you will get a ton of info...this case was big here in South Florida...they moved the trial to Orlando

Michael turned down a deal to get him out in 30 years....and got life without parole

He actually showed more signs of true "mental illness" than Allyssa it seems...ie, he was very obsessive compulsive about exercise, running, fitness....he was found to be schiophrenic but that didn't help...they felt he knew right from wrong
and the preplanning...efforts to not get caught, and even his choice of Jaime cause he would be "easier to kill" factored in

http://cbs4.com/local/jamie.gough.school.2.825131.html

here is a point in the trial where his own parents testified they thought he was insane

http://www.justnews.com/news/17504198/detail.html

Maybe it would be good to study them...I don't know...I am afraid of the results if they try to "fix" them and it doesn't work

Michael and Allyssa seem very much alike to me....Michael was popular...just had a creepy habit of liking gory websites, pictures of people decapitated etc....both did ok at school....both just wanted to find out what it felt like to "kill someone" and so they did

Not for anger, jealousy, not even for sex or for gain..just to kill, murder

and both were so cowardly (or efficient?) that they chose someone smaller who would be "easy to kill"

scary stuff..

I really hope some of you will check into the sad tale of Michael and Jamie

 

[LadyRider]

I have wondered this myself. I also wondered if there were any connections between the criminals in both sides of the family ( AB parents and EO dad and brother)

I can't help but think this could be.

 

[Prof]

Why think there is a connection? Because they are both in prison? CB's crimes were in another county

 

[eyes4crime]

PAXIMUS;
And as long as we, collectively, are willing to settle for the half assed real world way of doing things and refuse to fight for the ideals then it will always remain the same. Sure, I may be Don Quixote fighting windmills but I wont stop just because it is unpopular and enough people are not willing to join the cause to make it a winning one instead of a lost one.

~respectfully snipped~

REPLY: Paximus - this child has been treated with anti-depressant medication, along with intensive psychotherapy.

Her murderous fantasies consist of wondering what it's like to kill someone.
She acted on her homicidal fantasies by murdering a neighborhood child in the most ruthless manor.
She dug a grave, buried her prey, concealing her act so well LE had to be led to the grave site.

In your idyllic world, how would you treat her fascination with death and her acting on murderous impulses/fantasies?

Why do you think increasing therapy and/or changing medication would rid her of homicidal fantasies and/or murderous impulses?

Does anyone really think that would work? TIA

 

[mia g]

Why think there is a connection? Because they are both in prison? CB's crimes were in another county

I do not know if there is a conection, I have just wondered if there was one, it could be between any of the four connected. IF there was a connection it could be they met in jail/prison or even Ayssa and Dale Jr knew each other.. It was just a thought that crossed my mind early on as a possible "motive" but really does not have any importance on the whole scheme of things.

 

[LadyRider]

Why think there is a connection? Because they are both in prison? CB's crimes were in another county

Not saying it is connected, but did cross my mind. Most people with a dark side (being nice here) do tend to run together here in Missouri. Everybody knows someone that someone knows. I ride a Harley, doesn't necessarily mean I am a Hell's Angel, but I do know someone who knows someone that is and has introduced us. We have a common interest - the Harley. I mean we know that their is criminal history with both families and thus some times and especially in small communities everyone knows everyone and there history. I am sure it is not connected, but like I said it was mentioned a couple times and places that the families did have a issue. Maybe DO senior flirted with AB's mom and it upset her. I don't know, it was just a thought of mine. Back to Lurkville.