MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #8

[Tricia]

Do you ever sleep? You were here at 1:25 am and back posting by 10:20. Assuming that you have other website things to do and threads to visit I doubt this is your last stop at night and first in the morning.

You are a super dedicated host.

Welcome MDATCA. I see you are new too. I hope you are enjoying Websleuths.

I don't sleep a lot because I am sort of like the living dead. Well, I look like it most the time anyway. LOL.

Actually, there have been many times in the past when I have not been able to be on Websleuths much. Only because of our great moderators and administrators has Websleuths been able to continue.

Now that things have settled down for me I am trying to make up for lost time

 

[mysterygirl]

Well Tricia...I, for one, love when you post and add great things and insight into the discussion.

(And I bet you don't REALLY look like the living dead!)

 

[bigflaw]

Maybe this was discussed in detail earlier, but the more I think about it, the more it seems likely that the death of Bill Currie is somehow related to this incident. Particularly because the police chief (correct me if wrong) was the last person he spoke to.

There is an article from the "News Tribune" that says the following:

“Bill had the ability to sort through things and make a lot of sense out of it, sometimes, when other people couldn’t,” [Retired High School Principal Richard] Pemberton recalled.

Article here: http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/10/27/news_local/065local15currieremembered09.txt

I know that it is complete speculation, but scenarios keep going through my head about how they could be related, if Bill was somehow involved more with one of the involved parties more than is known/has been released. I don't doubt the "suicide" aspect, as it seems like there is good evidence of that. I just can't shake the fact that he was a journalism teacher and we know that AB had an interesting way of expressing herself in writing. Again, sorry if this is repeating a discussion that already happened.

 

[Kateyes]

I was glued to the Ft. hood shooting thread so....I don't know.

Hoppy, I agree with ya about not wanting to make dinner, I get FREAKING SOUP AGAIN. This time I am sick again. The kids are getting left over pizza from lunch!


Me+dinner= mother of the year right??
LOL don't answer that.

Danni - a little off topic, but sorry you are sick. Hope you are better soon. I have been fighting with some viral thing for three weeks - not the regular flu, or H1N1 as I have been tested. But I have asthma, and as usual ended up with an upper respiratory infection. Saw a good physician yesterday who gave me what I needed - its nice to be able to tell him I am an RN and I know what helps me - and I am on the mend today after spending the last three days mostly in bed, with my computer sleuthing and posting as I could on my favorite site Websleuths!!

I hope someone is pampering you - especially since you pamper everyone else all of the time!

This case is really upsetting and it makes me wonder how many missing persons cases there are where a similarly disturbed young sociopath was responsible but never caught. AB has issues that go to the root of her development and I am of the opinion that those personality flaws which lead to her being a sociopath cannot be changed. Studies have found that such people tend to stabilize after the age of 40 or so, but those studies did not include cold-blooded murderers. She will kill again if she is ever released. Tragic for her but statistics bear that out. I am going to try to find some links to such studies and statistics and post them when I do. Elizabeth never got to reach her adulthood, and become whatever she would have. She deserved that chance. It particularly bothers me that AB choose someone who also had a parent in prison on and off since she was born. It could be some connection on a level even AB doesn't realize But I tend to think it was just an opportunity that Elizabeth was the one right there and she took it, just as a sociopath does.

 

[MoEquineFan]

Maybe this was discussed in detail earlier, but the more I think about it, the more it seems likely that the death of Bill Currie is somehow related to this incident. Particularly because the police chief (correct me if wrong) was the last person he spoke to.

There is an article from the "News Tribune" that says the following:

“Bill had the ability to sort through things and make a lot of sense out of it, sometimes, when other people couldn’t,” [Retired High School Principal Richard] Pemberton recalled.

Article here: http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/10/27/news_local/065local15currieremembered09.txt

I know that it is complete speculation, but scenarios keep going through my head about how they could be related, if Bill was somehow involved more with one of the involved parties more than is known/has been released. I don't doubt the "suicide" aspect, as it seems like there is good evidence of that. I just can't shake the fact that he was a journalism teacher and we know that AB had an interesting way of expressing herself in writing. Again, sorry if this is repeating a discussion that already happened.

Hi Bigflaw. This has been discussed several times and I think the general consensus is that the two incidents are not related due to the teacher's illness and his turn for the worse.

I can't get this out of my head either. I was reading through some articles last night that brought it back - the crime was committed on Friday, special school board meeting over the weekend, then the suicide on Monday. It REALLY makes me wonder if he knew something. Especially since he was a jorunalism teacher and we have seen the quality of her writings.

I believe it was decided that he did not teach her grade so he would not have had her in class but I don't think we know if he had interaction with her in another capacity. (One of the articles on him mentioned how well he worked with troubled teens - he used to be a minister and she went to church before school, etc.)

You're right about the sherriff being the last person he talked to - if I remember correctly (I can try to find it) he and the sherriff were friends, he called the sherriff and asked him to take care of his dog.

 

[AnnieOakley]

My own adopted niece was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder here where I live at age 16 ,and that was several years ago. She is in her 20's now and seems to be doing better, but who knows for sure. She only did things that hurt herself, basically. My niece did not do things in concert with others. She did have sex at age 12 and other sexual activities as life went on, but other than that type of activity, she did not involve others. She initiated some of the inappropriate sex activities herself. She was not prodded into it.

She was adopted at age 8 and had been sexually abused and burned with cigarettes in a foreign country of her birth.

Your poor niece!!
I have a former client who was diagnosed at 17 with Borderline also-- and she certainly fit many signs before then! Sounds like your niece was having many of the same problems she was! I feel for your family-- it's like being on a roller coaster!!

It is strongly encouraged not to diagnose personality disorders (there are 11 IIRC) until age 18-- when, allegedly, personality is pretty much established. (I don't think it really is until much later, but I understand what the APA is trying to do there)... There certainly are some who fit the criteria earlier, but PD is a very significant disorder category- and usually assumed to be lifelong. So they encourage extreme caution in assigning the diagnosis.

15 would be really young for AB to have a firm diagnosis-- although I would certainly suspect that there is a provider out there who has said something about her behaviors being similar to that... and she may have been diagnosed already- IDK. A lot of teen girls (especially ones with abuse in their history) do meet some criteria of PD at very young ages

As someone who works with teens I am really, really interested in this case!! I think there is much to learn from AB--- I wish we could prevent anything like this tragedy from ever, ever happening again

 

[AnnieOakley]

Over 10 years ago, I had a boy across the street ,who moved about 20 miles from me when he was about 13. We felt he was very disturbed based on our observations and things we saw him do. We did report to CPS but nothing ever came of it.

We are friends with the step -dad and no one guessed Mom was doing meth. We knew she was unstable, and we would never let the boy on our property, that we knew of, without the Dad. Of course, the boy did go on our property without our knowledge, when we weren't home, I found out later. He wold steal things. He even climbed into a second story window once and stole my daughter's underwear. We always figured he would grow up to be a killer or a rapist. He isn't that I know of.

We never would have dreamed that a teenager would be a killer, even though we knew that he was disturbed. We figured that would happen later. I just don't think, until this happened, that people would think that a teenager would do this, especially a girl.

I know what you mean!! A former student of mine did all kinds of weird stuff and we all predicted that LATER on he would commit serious violence (he became a convicted rapist at age 24 and is in prison)--- but now I'm thinking we should look into his past for local missing persons and cold cases!!!! :sick:

 

[bigflaw]

I think the wolf was a symbolic choice for AB too. She used it in one online profile and the translation of her youtube name means "WolfShadow" I believe. Probably reversed from "Shadow Wolf". Now I am not a psychiatrist, but I think the wolf thing has to do with one of two concepts... One is that the wolf is a sly hunter (an interesting correlation in this case), the other is that the image of the wolf is steadfast and powerful, something she probably strove to be. It is interesting, I have always thought, because even though wolves are pack animals and retain mates, they are most often portrayed in images alone.

Wow, I am probably reading WAY too into this, but I need something to keep my Saturday brain churning. No need to tell me I'm stretching it,

 

[Prof]

Hi Bigflaw. This has been discussed several times and I think the general consensus is that the two incidents are not related due to the teacher's illness and his turn for the worse.

I can't get this out of my head either. I was reading through some articles last night that brought it back - the crime was committed on Friday, special school board meeting over the weekend, then the suicide on Monday. It REALLY makes me wonder if he knew something. Especially since he was a jorunalism teacher and we have seen the quality of her writings.

I believe it was decided that he did not teach her grade so he would not have had her in class but I don't think we know if he had interaction with her in another capacity. (One of the articles on him mentioned how well he worked with troubled teens - he used to be a minister and she went to church before school, etc.)

You're right about the sherriff being the last person he talked to - if I remember correctly (I can try to find it) he and the sherriff were friends, he called the sherriff and asked him to take care of his dog.

Bill Currie was also in charge of the student paper "Red and Black," as well as the yearbook. I cannot assume that he did not have any interaction with the perp. We have seen how she sought out many, many ways to express herself, and in my eyes seek out attention. I could easily imagine her attempting some school publishing. I find the report about the time of the Sheriff White's last communication with him too coincidental. I find the timing of his suicide telling. A communication teacher's last punctuation mark (!) . He had "Molly" and by reports that I have seen he had other family.
I think the rumor about taking care of the dog came from ILC, but I could be wrong.

 

[MoEquineFan]

Bill Currie was also in charge of the student paper "Red and Black," as well as the yearbook. I cannot assume that he did not have any interaction with the perp. We have seen how she sought out many, many ways to express herself, and in my eyes seek out attention. I could easily imagine her attempting some school publishing. I find the report about the time of the Sheriff White's last communication with him too coincidental. I find the timing of his suicide telling. A communication teacher's last punctuation mark (!) . He had "Molly" and by reports that I have seen he had other family.
I think the rumor about taking care of the dog came from ILC, but I could be wrong.[/QUOTE]

Bolded by me

Yikes - I certainly don't want to spread rumors! I thought I had read that elsewhere. I will look around and correct my post if I am wrong. Thank you!

 

[vjlaw]

Bill Currie was also in charge of the student paper "Red and Black," as well as the yearbook. I cannot assume that he did not have any interaction with the perp. We have seen how she sought out many, many ways to express herself, and in my eyes seek out attention. I could easily imagine her attempting some school publishing. I find the report about the time of the Sheriff White's last communication with him too coincidental. I find the timing of his suicide telling. A communication teacher's last punctuation mark (!) . He had "Molly" and by reports that I have seen he had other family.
I think the rumor about taking care of the dog came from ILC, but I could be wrong.[/QUOTE]

Bolded by me

Yikes - I certainly don't want to spread rumors! I thought I had read that elsewhere. I will look around and correct my post if I am wrong. Thank you!

Well, I know what I heard did not come from ILC about Mr. Currie. I heard he called Sheriff White but there was no time for the sheriff to get there. As a "local" I am sticking with that opinion of what I heard as being right. That isn't to say there couldn't have been another writing teacher discussed her writings with him. But that is just a thought about another teacher. If only somone with a high schooler could get a copy of the "Red and Black". Surely they did a tribute to him. It may also list the "reporters" from each grade.

 

[Dal Gal]

I think the wolf was a symbolic choice for AB too. She used it in one online profile and the translation of her youtube name means "WolfShadow" I believe. Probably reversed from "Shadow Wolf". Now I am not a psychiatrist, but I think the wolf thing has to do with one of two concepts... One is that the wolf is a sly hunter (an interesting correlation in this case), the other is that the image of the wolf is steadfast and powerful, something she probably strove to be. It is interesting, I have always thought, because even though wolves are pack animals and retain mates, they are most often portrayed in images alone.

Wow, I am probably reading WAY too into this, but I need something to keep my Saturday brain churning. No need to tell me I'm stretching it,

If I may fan your flame of your wolf analysis, her name on that karaoke website is Wolf_Heart. I'm grateful the content on her page has been removed now, cuz the girl could not sing.

 

[gliving]

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/10/27/news_local/065local15currieremembered09.txt

The first comment shows we aren't the only ones wondering why.

 

[KBL100]

I think the wolf was a symbolic choice for AB too. She used it in one online profile and the translation of her youtube name means "WolfShadow" I believe. Probably reversed from "Shadow Wolf". Now I am not a psychiatrist, but I think the wolf thing has to do with one of two concepts... One is that the wolf is a sly hunter (an interesting correlation in this case), the other is that the image of the wolf is steadfast and powerful, something she probably strove to be. It is interesting, I have always thought, because even though wolves are pack animals and retain mates, they are most often portrayed in images alone.

Wow, I am probably reading WAY too into this, but I need something to keep my Saturday brain churning. No need to tell me I'm stretching it,

I'm not sure how the wolf thing comes in, but from some searching I found some online accounts of a couple of AB's family members that use the wolf in some way as well. So I'm not sure what it means to her.

 

[Jules71]

I'm not sure how the wolf thing comes in, but from some searching I found some online accounts of a couple of AB's family members that use the wolf in some way as well. So I'm not sure what it means to her.

I also noticed both brothers reference wolves either in their screen names or other. Btw, they have both logged in within the last two days. I hope to God they have the supervision they need right now.

 

[MoEquineFan]

I'm not sure how the wolf thing comes in, but from some searching I found some online accounts of a couple of AB's family members that use the wolf in some way as well. So I'm not sure what it means to her.

All this wolf talk has piqued my interest... I haven't yet found a DIRECT correlation or explanation but a quick search of "wolf" and AB's religion provides a TON of references. Considering other family members used wolf in their online accounts, IMO it may be something relating back to their beliefs.

Possibly off topic, but today... for the first time EVER... I had visitors from this faith knock on my door. At first I thought, "oh no! can they tell I've been researching them online?" LOL

 

[Jules71]

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/10/27/news_local/065local15currieremembered09.txt

The first comment shows we aren't the only ones wondering why.

I think it's ok to post the comment. Very concerning.

" I pray for this man. Never knew him a day in my life. I was told why and my God what he must have felt. No, he was not to blame. "

 

[Bibliophile]

I saw the rule about not posting to web pages authored by minors. I wanted to add some info for future reference as this case unfolds.

Missouri's law regarding juveniles and the concept of "minors" is a convoluted mess. Here's the condensed version -

• Anyone under the age of 21 is considered a minor under Missouri law as it relates to alcoholic beverages.

• Otherwise, anyone 18 years old and over is an adult and anyone under 18 is a minor.

• EXCEPT in juvenile court statutes (Chap 211) where "Adult" means a person seventeen years of age or older except "for seventeen-year-old children as otherwise defined. "

• In the juvenile court statutes, "child" means any person under seventeen and "in addition, any person over seventeen but not yet eighteen years of age alleged to have committed a status offense ..."

• No person under the age of seventeen years can be held in an adult jail.

• Juvenile authorities can retain jurisdiction over a child/adult until 21 years of age.

• Anyone seventeen years and over who is suspected of crime is treated as an adult. Name/proceedings/record is public.

• Parents/Guardians are required to provide food/clothing/shelter etc. until 18 years of age but have no real authority over the child after they turn 17.

• Because of the lack of authority once they reached 17, Missouri law has some liability protections for parents with regard to the acts of their children.

• "Upon apprehension and arrest, jurisdiction over the criminal offense allegedly committed by any person between seventeen and twenty-one years of age over whom the juvenile court has retained continuing jurisdiction shall automatically terminate and that offense shall be dealt with in the court of general jurisdiction as provided in section 211.041."

• Any child between the ages of twelve and seventeen that commits a felony the court,the juvenile officer, the child or the child's custodian may petition for the child may be transferred to the court of general jurisdiction and prosecuted under the general law - "except that if a petition alleges that any child has committed an offense which would be considered first degree murder under section 565.020 ... the court shall order a hearing, and may in its discretion, dismiss the petition and transfer the child to a court of general jurisdiction for prosecution under the general law."

And then of course, there are all the laws dealing with general and dual jurisdiction, most of which have been previously discussed here.

 

[crimecurious]

All this wolf talk has piqued my interest... I haven't yet found a DIRECT correlation or explanation but a quick search of "wolf" and AB's religion provides a TON of references. Considering other family members used wolf in their online accounts, IMO it may be something relating back to their beliefs.

Possibly off topic, but today... for the first time EVER... I had visitors from this faith knock on my door. At first I thought, "oh no! can they tell I've been researching them online?" LOL

:laugh:

 

[Recovering-Lurker]

Can we possibly remove "A Fresh Start" from the title? I know why it's there, but others may not. It's not very appropriate for this case imo. Thanks!