MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #13

[bwt42]

Does anyone know if the FBI employs lie detector tests on witnesses in their investigations?

 

[TheDuchess]

Hey Guys,
I’m trying to sort of compile some facts in the shooting, a little exercise, trying to cite more than one type of source as it seems the issue is mired in bias, avoiding any IF’s on purpose as that would involve me injecting any theories I have. I also want to forewarn people, that I do not have firsthand knowledge of the events that occurred, so essentially even this stuff, while cited, its IMO or rather IMC (In Media Claims)

OW was originally from a very troubled police department in Jennings, which was a majority black population (89%)

OW himself has had no controversy until now, he had actually been commended after subduing a man whom was involved in a drug transaction, which makes his actions make less sense based on the narrative we’ve heard from some parties.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/darren-wilsons-first-job-was-on-a-troubled-police-force-disbanded-by-authorities/2014/08/23/1ac796f0-2a45-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

MB had recently stolen a box of cigars at approx. 11:52 am at a local QuikTrip, he had been willing to physically confront people based on what is witnessed in the video. I would like to also point out that while proving to use physical force (shoving the shopkeeper) he also used intimidation, which was his typical means of resolving conflict according to his friends and family.
http://www.thestar.com/news/2014/08/15/police_michael_brown_shot_after_store_robbery.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/15/ferguson-police-say-michael-brown-fit-description-strong-arm-robbery-suspect/

MB had drugs in his system (marijuana), but no Criminal record.
http://newsone.com/3047840/mike-brown-shooting-facts/

MB was legally an adult, and 6ft4 292lbs
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/08/michael-brown-too-burly-for-the-new-york-times.php

MB and DJ encounter OW on the street
http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/michael-brown-shooting-site/view/?service=0
View attachment 57842
The Yellow circle is the area the events transpired within approximately.

At some point OW sustains facial injuries
http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/22/did-ferguson-cop-darren-wilson-suffer-br

OW fires approximately 10 shots, in 2 volleys based on an audio recording at 12:02pm (noon)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiL-E5WAaUU
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/audio-gunshots-taken-time-michael-brown-shooting-glide-n191371

MB was hit 6 times and killed
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html
View attachment 57843
The Red circles identify the GSW's

Second Officer arrives on the scene at 12:04 shortly during that same time a supervisor arrives and a local ambulance who was answering a local sick call arrives and declares MB dead
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/michael-brown-ferguson-missouri-timeline/14051827/

<<Time for some IMO>>
I have intentionally avoided using any reference to DJ whom has been proven to at the very least not be a credible witness, if not an outright liar, such as his claim he met up with MB <<after>> the convenience store incident.
I also call into question the details regarding the OW vs MB confrontation (the physical portion) as the grappling doesn&#8217;t make a lick of sense to me, I keep thinking how high up OW must have to be in his SUV to grab a 6ft4 persons neck with one hand and get any kind of leverage.
http://gawker.com/ferguson-police-michael-brown-suspected-in-convenience-1622168198

I also believe that OW&#8217;s first volley does graze MB with most likely the last shot, listening to the above linked audio, the second volley, which is likely the one that kills MB seems to be missing one of the gunshots that were revealed on the autopsy. I would suspect it was the second lowest gunshot, judging by the trajectory needed to cause that type of lesion (a tearing wound, some might call it a &#8220;flesh wound&#8221
http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/gunshot-injuries

Following at the end of this exercise I then tried to formulate a theory,
again I've tried to exclude many IF's such as "If there is a conspiracy by ANY party involved, or IF the audio recording is not genuine"

OW Wilson is seeing 2 people in the middle of the street and calls upon them to &#8220;Get the hell out of the street.&#8221; There isn&#8217;t any compliance with this. OW comes closer and tells them to do so a second time, possibly with an F-Bomb.

Now in close distance OW&#8217;s radio mentions the robbery call, MB and DJ are close enough to OW to hear this and both get scared, Fight or Flight time.

MB reaches for and strikes OW, ringing his bell pretty good based on the facial swelling.

DJ runs for it,

MB convinced he has taken the fight out of OW begins to leave as well.

OW regains his senses, exits the SUV and fires the first volley of shots, grazes MB with one.

MB turns around and says &#8220;stop shooting me.&#8221; still standing, seeing OW is probably still a bit punch drunk, he chooses to fight rather than flight a second time, he charges OW who has not lowered his weapon this entire time and has been aiming.

OW fires a second volley of 5 shots, each shot hitting MB, who whilst charging would have likely had his arms up in a attempt to grapple OW if he had reached him.

The last gunshot hits MB in the head, ending his life.

Well done! Thanks!

 

[JLSChook]

Lambchop, I get what you are saying, but that would only be true if OW was a perfect shot. Let's remember he missed with several shots as well. And again, LE is trained to shoot center mass. He was not aiming for the arms.

BBM
You proved my point from earlier.

So, you think it's possible that MB was shot once while he was facing away, then he turned around and was shot several more times?

Think about this, if you will. IF what you believe is true, what did Officer Wilson have against MB's right arm? If MB was facing away from OW, MB's right arm would have been on OW's right.
Once he turned around, MB's right arm would have been on OW's left. So, you're saying that OW shot at MB's right first and once he turned around, he re-aimed and shot left?

It doesn't make any sense.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Furthermore, potential witnesses are asked by LE/FBI to NOT talk to the media until AFTER a possible trial. JMO.

Actually there is a whole thing about them not talking to witnesses and the witnesses going to national tv to be heard..

 

[TorisMom003]

Actually there is a whole thing about them not talking to witnesses and the witnesses going to national tv to be heard..

Was this before the FBI even became involved in the case, say right after Brown was shot? I know at least one witness/involved individual spoke to media right away.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

The myths of Ferguson:
1.) Michael Brown was an innocent teenaged "gentle giant" walking down the street minding his own business
FALSE - MB had just committed a strong armed robbery just 10 minutes prior and was walking down the center of the street with stolen goods
2.) Michael Brown was shot in the back
FALSE - MB was never shot in the back and there is a slight possibility that one of the 6 shots that hit him came from behind but highly unlikely given all the others were from the front (incidentally it wasn't the fatal shot and the case rests on whether the fatal shot was justified, not ones that did not kill him
3.) OW is a bloodthirsty racist cop who was just itching to gun down a black kid in the street
FALSE - OW has a perfectly clean 6 year record without even one single complaint filed against him
4.) Michael Brown was "unarmed"
Technically TRUE with the HUGE caviat that he was at least at one point very close to gaining access to OWs gun
5.) OW tried pulling MB into the squad car
FALSE - well...I mean I don't have proof its false other than it being absolutely ridiculous
6.) There is a war on black teens
Possibly true but IRRELEVANT to this case

The original narrative, while a grandiose sculpture of epic proportions, its volatile and outrageousness, has been chipped away by what we know, and the more we know, the larger the chunks of the sculpture have fallen away. As much as people want to try to glue pieces of it back together, tape them back onto the sculpture with duct tape, it has been revealed as fake, merely a façade. Many have attempted to build new sculptures to take attention away from the original one in the hopes that these will surround the original fake sculpture and make the glue and duct tape less noticeable.

But the fact remains that quite PROBABLY a very innocent man locked away somewhere in fear for his and his family's safety whose life will never be the same again who has been outrageously and unabashedly vilified by race baiters, politicians, the media, and the community all based upon a mountain of lies, partial truths and selective and prejudicial information.

That this could happen to someone in THIS country. That a person can be so vilified so quickly by so many in this country is a national disgrace.

We need to be careful about opinionizing facts.

Facts go like this..
1, Michael Brown was a gentle giant
- Possible- But this day he was caught on video in an aggressive robbery.
2- Michael Brown was shot in the back.
Possible - There were shots fired that could have hit him while he was running away.
3-OW was a racist blood thirsty cop
Possible. We don't know what people think unless they share it with us. No evidence to support it so far. Cop has a good service record.
4-Michael Brown was unarmed
True. He had no weapons on him.
5- OW tried to pull MB into car
Possible. We have no evidence that supports this or negates this. Have to wait for more evidence.
6 There is a war on black teens
Possible.

When we add a narrative it becomes no longer facts or evidence but just opinion.

There is too much that is not known and too much evidence that is not it. At best now there are a lot of guesses about what actually happened.
We will have a better picture when we get all the evidence. My guess is at trial..

IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am confused about why folks are having a hard time accepting that there are different possibilities as to how this went down. For sure, I get how what we know can lead you in one direction or another, but to completely disregard anything but that which supports this as a justifiable kill is mind boggling to me. It is as though people do not want to believe it possible that LE can and do overstep there boundaries. Happens ALL THE TIME. Sometimes it is just a LEO stretching the boundaries, and sometimes it is with complete malicious intent, but folks it does happen and IMO it happens too much, we need to completely trust LE 100%, yes they have a terribly tough job! but we need to be able to trust them.

I do trust officer Wilson.
His record is clean. Zero dirt in him.

~

I know for a fact that what happened to BROWN would NEVER happen to me. I don't rob nor do I assault police officers. I have the ability and desire to obey laws and follow instructions. So YES, I trust them.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bettybaby00]

So, you think it's possible that MB was shot once while he was facing away, then he turned around and was shot several more times?

Think about this, if you will. IF what you believe is true, what did Officer Wilson have against MB's right arm? If MB was facing away from OW, MB's right arm would have been on OW's right.
Once he turned around, MB's right arm would have been on OW's left. So, you're saying that OW shot at MB's right first and once he turned around, he re-aimed and shot left?

It doesn't make any sense.

This. The wound pattern in and of itself is pretty telling IMO

 

[cady]

I am really curious to know how people feel that this incident should have been dealt with from the beginning. I believe that the initial protests, which were legal and understandable, unfortunately attracted the media circus and everything devolved from there. But let's leave out the devolution for now, and just think about what SHOULD have been done about the incident. I'd really like to hear OPINIONS about that. Thanks. JMO

 

[bettybaby00]

Dr. Baden is not as young as he used to be. Maybe it just took him a little more time to get the job done, lol! Maybe he didn't hear them right in the first "strategy sessions" as to what he was supposed to say, and how he was supposed to say it, lol!

But hey, he's finally "coming around" to understand and help advance the strategy, right?! Just took him a few days longer than the rest of the team. IMO.

Maybe they had to have some practice sessions with a mock camera interview for a few days, to make sure what he said was what was rehearsed in the strategy sessions? That takes time. IMO, of course!

Clearly this was Parcells job, but when he was revealed to be fraud he disappeared awfully fast. Seems it took some convincing to get Baden to start talking about the movable arms theroy.

And clearly Baden is working toward a civil suit.

 

[K_Z]

I understand that the family is not "the defense" and I didn't say they were. That's why I mentioned the family and the defense separately. But especially given that the family is NOT the defense OR the prosecution at this point, why could they not have all the information regarding the death of their son? Is that not their right as parents?

Well, this is the last time I'm going to answer this again. As I've said TWICE now, the family of MB WILL have access to the information regarding the death of their son, specifically, the official autopsy. They just don't get to demand it, or "have" it whenever they want it. Please don't twist my words any more.

They, and their attorneys have made tremendously inflammatory accusations about the actions of the officer, that have directly lead to the prosecutor presenting the investigation and evidence to a grand jury. That is what they SAID they wanted to happen. That process has to conclude, BEFORE they have access to what can be released to the family, AND the public.

They know this. Their attorneys told them this. It's common knowledge that the autopsy would not be released right away, and the police chief even announced that in the first days. That is exactly WHY they hired Dr. Baden to do a 2nd autopsy, IMO. They were definitely told it would be a LONG time until autopsy #1 would be released, because of the accusations against OW. Their story, right from the start, was that no matter WHAT the county ME found in the autopsy, they didn't TRUST it, ahead of time. So they hired Dr. Baden.

The Brown family does not get to control the process of the investigation, when information is released, and the unfolding legal process THEY DEMANDED, as much as they may want to. All they can do is attempt to influence the media and public opinion. Which they have done, A LOT.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I am really curious to know how people feel that this incident should have been dealt with from the beginning. I believe that the initial protests, which were legal and understandable, unfortunately attracted the media circus and everything devolved from there. But let's leave out the devolution for now, and just think about what SHOULD have been done about the incident. I'd really like to hear OPINIONS about that. Thanks. JMO

I think the reason this was so out of control from the beginning is because of the way it was handled by the police. They left MB out there for 4 hours and he was uncovered way too long. They would not comment on anything and hid the identity of the officer. They did not come forth with good information from the start.

If this was handled better, I don't believe we would have seen half the mayhem we did.

 

[i.b.nora]

Remember, there was a several second PAUSE between volleys. Plenty of time to re-aim. JMO

Not to mention the fact that when Michael turned around, we don't know which foot he pivoted on (if he did pivot) or which direction he turned, to his right or to his left.

 

[Ladylub]

I understand that the family is not "the defense" and I didn't say they were. That's why I mentioned the family and the defense separately. But especially given that the family is NOT the defense OR the prosecution at this point, why could they not have all the information regarding the death of their son? Is that not their right as parents?

I personally think that MB's family and lawyers had some of facts for that first autopsy and that is why Baden and Purcell were pulled in.

 

[Phoebeb]

Your further along than I am. I'm not sold on the 35'.

I'm not either- the google earth map measures more like 120 ft from OW car to MB's body.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...2!3m1!1s0x87df498852b6aead:0xd8ea0c838dc779f4

 

[katydid23]

I think the reason this was so out of control from the beginning is because of the way it was handled by the police. They left MB out there for 4 hours and he was uncovered way too long. They would not comment on anything and hid the identity of the officer. They did not come forth with good information from the start.

If this was handled better, I don't believe we would have seen half the mayhem we did.

You think it would have been better somehow, if they immediately made the officers name public?

 

[jmcgladr]

Well, this is the last time I'm going to answer this again. As I've said TWICE now, the family of MB WILL have access to the information regarding the death of their son, specifically, the official autopsy. They just don't get to demand it, or "have" it whenever they want it. Please don't twist my words any more.

They, and their attorneys have made tremendously inflammatory accusations about the actions of the officer, that have directly lead to the prosecutor presenting the investigation and evidence to a grand jury. That is what they SAID they wanted to happen. That process has to conclude, BEFORE they have access to what can be released to the family, AND the public.

They know this. Their attorneys told them this. It's common knowledge that the autopsy would not be released right away, and the police chief even announced that in the first days. That is exactly WHY they hired Dr. Baden to do a 2nd autopsy, IMO. They were definitely told it would be a LONG time until autopsy #1 would be released, because of the accusations against OW. Their story, right from the start, was that no matter WHAT the county ME found in the autopsy, they didn't TRUST it, ahead of time. So they hired Dr. Baden.

The Brown family does not get to control the process of the investigation, when information is released, and the unfolding legal process THEY DEMANDED, as much as they may want to. All they can do is attempt to influence the media and public opinion. Which they have done, A LOT.

I must have missed the media report that said that MB's family wanted this to go to the Grand Jury, or had a part in this case proceeding that way. Do you have a link for that? I thought it went to the Grand Jury because that was standard for these types of cases in St. Louis County:

"Marcia McCormick, who teaches criminal law at Saint Louis University Law School, says most of the high-level felonies in St. Louis County go through the grand jury. In addition, grand juries are almost always used in cases of alleged police brutality because they allow the prosecutor to gauge the credibility of witnesses." http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/whats-grand-jury-how-will-it-work-ferguson-case

 

[K_Z]

I think the reason this was so out of control from the beginning is because of the way it was handled by the police. They left MB out there for 4 hours and he was uncovered way too long. They would not comment on anything and hid the identity of the officer. They did not come forth with good information from the start.

If this was handled better, I don't believe we would have seen half the mayhem we did.

BBM.

It has been linked upthread that the ME's office was in the process of handling a multi-vehicle crash with multiple victims at the time of the MB shooting. That accounts for what is being perceived as a "delay", or "slow response" by the ME to process the scene and remove the body.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think the reason this was so out of control from the beginning is because of the way it was handled by the police. They left MB out there for 4 hours and he was uncovered way too long. They would not comment on anything and hid the identity of the officer. They did not come forth with good information from the start.

If this was handled better, I don't believe we would have seen half the mayhem we did.

The entire "he laid out on the street too long" is a load of crap too.

It's common. Waiting hours for an ME to arrive is common, it happens all the time.

How many ME's so you think there are and what do you think they're doing all day?

Seems to be a lack of actual "real life" information that the "spinners" are feasting on and regurgitating to those naive enough to listen.

Park is now attempting to paint the Grand Jury process as slimey....eyeroll.

IMO


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[TorisMom003]

I must have missed the media report that said that MB's family wanted this to go to the Grand Jury, or had a part in this case proceeding that way. Do you have a link for that? I thought it went to the Grand Jury because that was standard for these types of cases in St. Louis County:

"Marcia McCormick, who teaches criminal law at Saint Louis University Law School, says most of the high-level felonies in St. Louis County go through the grand jury. In addition, grand juries are almost always used in cases of alleged police brutality because they allow the prosecutor to gauge the credibility of witnesses." http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/whats-grand-jury-how-will-it-work-ferguson-case

You're right. Brown's family (mother specifically) said nothing about wanting this case to go to the Grand Jury. She did, however, say that she wanted Wilson put on death row.

MOO