ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Aired September 3, 2014 - 20:00 ET
Just ahead, though, tonight, breaking news in the Michael Brown shooting case, late word that the Justice Department is preparing to open a civil investigation into Ferguson's police department. Details on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. We have more breaking news, late word that the Justice Department is ready to launch a civil investigation into the Ferguson, Missouri Police Department. The probe is going to focus on police department practices and training.
Now today the grand jury that is going to decide whether or not to charge Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown met for the third time. Tonight a legal battle is also raging over Brown's juvenile court records.
Two media outlets have petitioned for the release of those juvenile records. The lawyers were in court today, but the hearing in St. Louis, a court official said that Michael Brown had no serious felony convictions as a juvenile.
The judge didn't give a timeline for her decision and joining me to talk about it, CNN legal analysts, Jeffrey Toobin and Mark Geragos and also legal affairs commentator, Areva Martin.
So Jeff, what do you think about this? I mean, do you think these two media organizations have a case. Should Michael Brown's juvenile records be released?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, it kind of pains me to say it, Anderson, as a journalist because I'm always pro-disclosure, but I think the answer is no. The law in Missouri is that juvenile cases remain secret and there really is not an exception because we're all really curious.
I think a lot of people, particularly on the political right want this information to discredit Michael Brown and prove he somehow had this coming. But I don't think that's a valid justification at all. The law is the law and I don't think it should be disclosed at this point.
COOPER: Mark, one of the lawyers for the news organizations argued the primary reason to keep juvenile records confidential is protect a child from becoming an adult saddled with a stigma of a criminal record, but that expired when Michael Brown died according to this lawyer, do you agree with that?
MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That is an argument because the basis for sealing the juvenile records is look, everybody has indiscretions as a youth and we don't want to have somebody saddled with that in adulthood.
In this case, the interesting thing is going to be whether, and I think it will turn, if there is a criminal case filed, then I think under Missouri law, you will see if they haven't already released the records, the defense will get the records at that point.
And that doesn't mean that they will be admissible, but they will go in, they will make a petition in front of that judge where this -- the judge who supervises the juvenile court and will get access to the records because they will argue that that is something they need that can lead to admissible evidence.
So whether the news outlets win it now or if there is a criminal case, the judge has to reveal it later. I think it's going to come out.
COOPER: Areva, you say the records are completely irrelevant. Do you believe that and also if it turns out that Officer Wilson somehow knew about Michael Brown or knew of any potential cases he had as a juvenile?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: You know, I think that's the question that's puzzling and bothering so many people, Anderson, is how could Officer Wilson had known anything about Michael Brown or his record at the time he stopped him that would have justified the excessive force that was used in this case.
And I think also there is a concern about, you know, who is a legitimate party here, who has a legitimate interest in those records? So Mark talks about the defense perhaps petitioning the court for those records.
And that seems even more plausible than the media who says they want to find out if the claims that Michael was a gentle giant as his parents said is true or not and they want to examine his character.
That really concerns me because it plays into the theory you have to be a perfect victim in order to get justice in some of these high- profile police cases and I think we saw it in Trayvon Martin.
We've seen it in some of these other cases and that's really troubling, I think to the African-American community and lots of people who are concerned about what is happening in police forces with respect to African-American males.
COOPER: Jeff, in terms of what was said in the court, court officials said that Michael Brown was never convicted of a serious A level or B level felony as a juvenile. Even given that, it's possible he could have been charged with one and just never convicted of it or he could have made a plea deal for a lesser charge. I want to be clear what was actually said in the course. TOOBIN: I think what was said in court was said with considerable precision for just the reason you're suggesting. It is important to say he was not a felon. He has never been convicted of a felony. I think that's an important part of the public record in this case.
But what his relationship, if any, to the criminal justice system remains pretty mysterious at this point, whether he's ever been charged with a felony, whether he's plead guilty to a misdemeanor or anything else or even had a conviction in a family court setting, that is unknown at this point.
GERAGOS: You know, Anderson, the way that it was parsed today leads me to believe there is a mechanism in the juvenile courts even in that state where by even if you're charged, if you stay clean for six months or a year, depending on the jurisdiction, they will dismiss the charge.
They have it. It's kind of a juvenile diversion and it sure sounded to me based upon the language that we use in court that that's probably what transpired here.
There was no conviction because once you complete this informal or formal diversion. They had two methods that then the record basically, there is no conviction and you can literally say I've never been convicted of anything.
COOPER: Mark Geragos, Areva Martin, Jeff Toobin, appreciate the discussion. Thank you.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1409/03/acd.01.html
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Aired September 3, 2014 - 20:00 ET
Just ahead, though, tonight, breaking news in the Michael Brown shooting case, late word that the Justice Department is preparing to open a civil investigation into Ferguson's police department. Details on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. We have more breaking news, late word that the Justice Department is ready to launch a civil investigation into the Ferguson, Missouri Police Department. The probe is going to focus on police department practices and training.
Now today the grand jury that is going to decide whether or not to charge Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown met for the third time. Tonight a legal battle is also raging over Brown's juvenile court records.
Two media outlets have petitioned for the release of those juvenile records. The lawyers were in court today, but the hearing in St. Louis, a court official said that Michael Brown had no serious felony convictions as a juvenile.
The judge didn't give a timeline for her decision and joining me to talk about it, CNN legal analysts, Jeffrey Toobin and Mark Geragos and also legal affairs commentator, Areva Martin.
So Jeff, what do you think about this? I mean, do you think these two media organizations have a case. Should Michael Brown's juvenile records be released?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, it kind of pains me to say it, Anderson, as a journalist because I'm always pro-disclosure, but I think the answer is no. The law in Missouri is that juvenile cases remain secret and there really is not an exception because we're all really curious.
I think a lot of people, particularly on the political right want this information to discredit Michael Brown and prove he somehow had this coming. But I don't think that's a valid justification at all. The law is the law and I don't think it should be disclosed at this point.
COOPER: Mark, one of the lawyers for the news organizations argued the primary reason to keep juvenile records confidential is protect a child from becoming an adult saddled with a stigma of a criminal record, but that expired when Michael Brown died according to this lawyer, do you agree with that?
MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That is an argument because the basis for sealing the juvenile records is look, everybody has indiscretions as a youth and we don't want to have somebody saddled with that in adulthood.
In this case, the interesting thing is going to be whether, and I think it will turn, if there is a criminal case filed, then I think under Missouri law, you will see if they haven't already released the records, the defense will get the records at that point.
And that doesn't mean that they will be admissible, but they will go in, they will make a petition in front of that judge where this -- the judge who supervises the juvenile court and will get access to the records because they will argue that that is something they need that can lead to admissible evidence.
So whether the news outlets win it now or if there is a criminal case, the judge has to reveal it later. I think it's going to come out.
COOPER: Areva, you say the records are completely irrelevant. Do you believe that and also if it turns out that Officer Wilson somehow knew about Michael Brown or knew of any potential cases he had as a juvenile?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: You know, I think that's the question that's puzzling and bothering so many people, Anderson, is how could Officer Wilson had known anything about Michael Brown or his record at the time he stopped him that would have justified the excessive force that was used in this case.
And I think also there is a concern about, you know, who is a legitimate party here, who has a legitimate interest in those records? So Mark talks about the defense perhaps petitioning the court for those records.
And that seems even more plausible than the media who says they want to find out if the claims that Michael was a gentle giant as his parents said is true or not and they want to examine his character.
That really concerns me because it plays into the theory you have to be a perfect victim in order to get justice in some of these high- profile police cases and I think we saw it in Trayvon Martin.
We've seen it in some of these other cases and that's really troubling, I think to the African-American community and lots of people who are concerned about what is happening in police forces with respect to African-American males.
COOPER: Jeff, in terms of what was said in the court, court officials said that Michael Brown was never convicted of a serious A level or B level felony as a juvenile. Even given that, it's possible he could have been charged with one and just never convicted of it or he could have made a plea deal for a lesser charge. I want to be clear what was actually said in the course. TOOBIN: I think what was said in court was said with considerable precision for just the reason you're suggesting. It is important to say he was not a felon. He has never been convicted of a felony. I think that's an important part of the public record in this case.
But what his relationship, if any, to the criminal justice system remains pretty mysterious at this point, whether he's ever been charged with a felony, whether he's plead guilty to a misdemeanor or anything else or even had a conviction in a family court setting, that is unknown at this point.
GERAGOS: You know, Anderson, the way that it was parsed today leads me to believe there is a mechanism in the juvenile courts even in that state where by even if you're charged, if you stay clean for six months or a year, depending on the jurisdiction, they will dismiss the charge.
They have it. It's kind of a juvenile diversion and it sure sounded to me based upon the language that we use in court that that's probably what transpired here.
There was no conviction because once you complete this informal or formal diversion. They had two methods that then the record basically, there is no conviction and you can literally say I've never been convicted of anything.
COOPER: Mark Geragos, Areva Martin, Jeff Toobin, appreciate the discussion. Thank you.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1409/03/acd.01.html
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