MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #16

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Where are these images of the big scary crowd in the first couple hours of the shooting?
I never saw anything remotely looking like a dangerous situation. Except for one or two shocked family members, every person stayed behind the yellow tape- didn't they? And congregated in small groups, often near media. They felt safe enough.

What was this fear actually based on- anyone with imaages that support this new story?

Good Grief! How about watching this video. It might explain a few things :)

Wow! Have you guys seen this? Just found it. This video provides a lot of info. So the family knows why Michael was in the street so long!

Medical transporter explains why Michael Brown’s body laid on the ground for hours
It was unsafe, we feared for our lives

http://fox2now.com/2014/09/08/medic...el-browns-body-lay-on-the-ground-for-4-hours/

More timeline info too in case there's one here somewhere.
 
From reading this thread, I have learned:

Michael Brown stole $50 worth of cigars and shoved a storekeeper. If he was still alive, he was definitely going to jail.

Micheal Brown slugged a police officer in the face causing injury. The officer has no real choice but to kill Michael Brown even if he tries to surrender.

Meanwhile in today's news, we are reminded of a case where a football player slugged his girlfriend, knocking her out with a single blow. A Grand Jury reviews the evidence, an indictment for third degree assault is issued, the player is sent to a diversion program. His record will be expunged if he follows the program and stays out of trouble for a year.

Comparing this last crime to what Michael Brown is alleged to have done, the idea that Brown had to die doesn't really make sense.

BBM

I don't know where you got that idea.
 
From reading this thread, I have learned:

Michael Brown stole $50 worth of cigars and shoved a storekeeper. If he was still alive, he was definitely going to jail.

Micheal Brown slugged a police officer in the face causing injury. The officer has no real choice but to kill Michael Brown even if he tries to surrender.

Meanwhile in today's news, we are reminded of a case where a football player slugged his girlfriend, knocking her out with a single blow. A Grand Jury reviews the evidence, an indictment for third degree assault is issued, the player is sent to a diversion program. His record will be expunged if he follows the program and stays out of trouble for a year.

Comparing this last crime to what Michael Brown is alleged to have done, the idea that Brown had to die doesn't really make sense.

Wow, I didn't know the football player's girlfriend was a cop!! Did he try and take her gun away? Did it go off while she still had it?
 
Actually that is exactly the sort of thing the DOJ will investigate to uncover racial bias if it exists. Like they did with the same corrupt force that OW was forced to leave when it was disbanded. And in other cities across the country.
I'm shocked people here seemed to miss the protests were also about the big picture, which is not always pretty.

No, the big picture isn't pretty at all, and I imagine it will get uglier if OW isn't indicted by the GJ.
 
We'll just agree to disagree again respectfully. I'm not buying into the theory that he was a threat to the public at large at the moment of the fatal shots unless he was arrested. I suspect, without doing any legal research, that those instances involve situations where a person is more than a theoretical threat to the public. It's all kind of moot though, because I do think, as you point out, that there is a question of whether or not he was a threat to DW himself. I also agree, it's all not necessarily with hindsight and that it's not just a blind belief by the officer but a reasonable belief at that time.

The main point of my post was that the part that seems to get lost in a lot of the conversation is not only must DW have either believed a felony was committed or that MB was a threat, but that deadly force was immediately necessary to effect the arrest. That language in the statute is the part that I think the majority of the case will come down to. While threat/no threat will be discussed I'm sure, I think the major point will be whether deadly force was immediately necessary...i.e. had MB surrendered himself to arrest or not. While we have some of the picture we hardly have the full picture to determine which is the case.

I think both the shop clerk who was grabbed, intimidated and shoved by Brown as well as the police officer assaulted by Brown in a grab for his weapon would disagree with your conclusion Brown was merely a "theoretical" threat to other members of the public after he resisted arrest. That security video gave me enough of a full picture to conclude Brown WAS a threat and needed to be stopped before he hurt anyone else.

JMO
 
I just looked up one of the first media reports to reflect what went on that day, August 9.

IMO, some very strong, inflammatory statements were made by several "witnesses" which contributed to the chaos. IMO, those "witnesses" have been coached, they had lawyers present within a short time. Their statements had a HUGE impact how this case would be seen by many. Unfortunately, it's not illegal to give false statements to the media and the public, IMO.

On the other hand, LE was presented with a very difficult situation due to the overwhelming chaos and riots. JMO

<RSBM>

Through Saturday afternoon and evening some among the crowds were yelling profanities at police demanding justice. At one point gun shots rang out in the area as investigators gathered evidence. That prompted numerous police canine units to move in and move the crowds back.

<RSBM>

http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Heavy-police-presence--270609091.html

For focus, I highlighted the statement in blue.

Could the sound of gunfire have been when the other incident occurred nearby at almost 1:00p when officers shot the man who was stealing and armed with a knife and urging the officers to "shoot me now"?

[video]http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/video/id-9hODhxbzomoSShNitf-aHN6yJCaVcDh5/Breaking-news-Another-shooting-in-Ferguson?nk=eea024ee8b516a037e7b2424620a3110#ooid= 9hODhxbzomoSShNitf-aHN6yJCaVcDh5[/video]

In any event, I do not believe there was fear of police officers shooting into the gathering crowd at the scene of MB. The fear the transporter and his wife felt was from the tension of the angry uncontrolled crowd and definitely not fear of LEO.

moo mho omho and all that jazz
 
I think you're missing the point. Why don't more white people have warrants? Because all whites are responsible? Why are so many of the warrants disproportionately for blacks? It's not whether or not a particular person should have a warrant, but what about the enforcement is leading to such a disparity and being so lopsidedly oppressive for one group but not the other.

I'm white! I'm female! If I get a ticket, I hired an atty to take care of it regardless of the $$$$ 'cause I know of repercussions! Dayum! Is the peanut gallery that dumb?! Sorry, but WTH?! I would NEVER drive knowing there was a warrant out for me especially due to my inability to pay for my own issue/a ticket!

Man, American is full of such disgraces IMHO
 
From reading this thread, I have learned:

Michael Brown stole $50 worth of cigars and shoved a storekeeper. If he was still alive, he was definitely going to jail.

Micheal Brown slugged a police officer in the face causing injury. The officer has no real choice but to kill Michael Brown even if he tries to surrender.

Meanwhile in today's news, we are reminded of a case where a football player slugged his girlfriend, knocking her out with a single blow. A Grand Jury reviews the evidence, an indictment for third degree assault is issued, the player is sent to a diversion program. His record will be expunged if he follows the program and stays out of trouble for a year.

Comparing this last crime to what Michael Brown is alleged to have done, the idea that Brown had to die doesn't really make sense.

There's no comparison between the two incidents. There's the matter of a strong-arm robbery which included an assault upon a shop keeper that also occurred. An assault on a police officer and struggle over the officer's weapon also occurred. Brown would have been sentenced to prison for multiple felonies, not diversion.

JMO
 
For focus, I highlighted the statement in blue.

Could the sound of gunfire have been when the other incident occurred nearby at almost 1:00p when officers shot the man who was stealing and armed with a knife and urging the officers to "shoot me now"?

[video]http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/video/id-9hODhxbzomoSShNitf-aHN6yJCaVcDh5/Breaking-news-Another-shooting-in-Ferguson?nk=eea024ee8b516a037e7b2424620a3110#ooid= 9hODhxbzomoSShNitf-aHN6yJCaVcDh5[/video]

In any event, I do not believe there was fear of police officers shooting into the gathering crowd at the scene of MB. The fear the transporter and his wife felt was from the tension of the angry uncontrolled crowd and definitely not fear of LEO.

moo mho omho and all that jazz

I thought the transporter heard gunshots and that's why they were afraid, not so much because of the crowd. Even the police told them to stay in the car and get down since they didn't have vests on. Why would PO's shoot into a crowd?

The shooting incident that occurred about 1pm was 2 miles away, I don't think it would be loud enough to scare anyone where MB's body was...I could be wrong.
 
I'm white! I'm female! If I get a ticket, I hired an atty to take care of it regardless of the $$$$ 'cause I know of repercussions! Dayum! Is the peanut gallery that dumb?! Sorry, but WTH?! I would NEVER drive knowing there was a warrant out for me especially due to my inability to pay for my own issue/a ticket!

Man, American is full of such disgraces IMHO

ITA. America has its share of losers who want to blame everybody else rather than accept personal responsibility. Even the media is losing their interest in the Ferguson story as the truth trickles out.

If you pay the ticket, then there won't be a warrant. I don't buy the claim that anybody gets a free pass just because of their race. That's utter nonsense, imo. Officer Wilson did have probable cause to stop Brown and Johnson. They were illegally walking in the street and refused his directive to move to the sidewalk.
 
There's no comparison between the two incidents. There's the matter of a strong-arm robbery which included an assault upon a shop keeper that also occurred. An assault on a police officer and struggle over the officer's weapon also occurred. Brown would have been sentenced to prison for multiple felonies, not diversion.

Brown had a clean record, the store owner suffered no serious injury and the theft was minor. A blow that leaves someone unconsious is a far more serious assault.

If only the store incident had occurred, why would Brown not be eligible for diversion?
 
Brown had a clean record, the store owner suffered no serious injury and the theft was minor. A blow that leaves someone unconsious is a far more serious assault.

If only the store incident had occurred, why would Brown not be eligible for diversion?

1. It's far from "settled" that MB had a "clean record". The evasiveness and word parsing of everyone involved with the hearing for the juvenile records, in addition to Crump and Parks words (linked many times in earlier posts), telegraphs that there "is" a juvenile record that is being withheld. Two media entities continue to pursue release of these records. No one (well, beyond MB's mom), and including the JUDGE, is willing to say there are "no" juvenile records, which would END the pursuit to have anything that exists, released.

2. MB would likely have been charged with Robbery (not theft, not shoplifting-- big difference between these) in the Second degree for the convenience store robbery. Likely, assault charges would have been also attached. Maximum penalty for Robbery in the Second Degree in MO is 5-15 years. And we haven't begun to sort out the level of assault of the store clerk, and whether that was a felony or misdemeanor. And I personally believe if MB had lived to be charged, busting/ plea bargaining the robbery down to a misdemeanor "theft" would not have been possible, in light of the assault of the LEO which followed a mere 10min later, with a struggle for the officer's weapon. Likely attempted murder would have been charged for that. IMO.

http://www.missouri-criminal-defense.com/offenses/

http://www.missouri-criminal-defense.com/assault/

3. There is not a thing in MO law that I can find that states that the recipient of an assault must be rendered "unconscious" for it to be considered "serious" under the law.

4. And then we move into the multiple potential felony and misdemeanor penalties for the defiance of a request to move to the sidewalk, the assault of the police officer, the struggle over the officer's weapon, and all of the rest of the circumstances, and MB would have unquestioningly faced decades of prison time for his actions of Aug 9.

No, this would never, ever have been plea bargained down to something that was penalized with diversion or community service, had MB lived to be charged. OW was not a civilian , or an equal under the law, in the encounter with MB-- he was a sworn peace officer, an authority figure. I know that this imbalance of power chafes at some people, presumably those who have a big psychological or emotional problem with authority figures, but the fact is that they were not "equals" in the eyes of the law when the beginning of the encounter with MB, DJ, and OW began. This was not a bar brawl between civilians. Attacking a sworn police officer guarantees felony charges at a minimum, and struggling with a LEO over his/ her weapon is astonishingly brash and unwise, and very well might lead to the officer shooting you, dead.
 
Please provide a link that states the shop owner's non-injuries.
A link that list possible charges for theft of cigarillos.
A link that states MB had a clean record.
 
From reading this thread, I have learned:

Michael Brown stole $50 worth of cigars and shoved a storekeeper. If he was still alive, he was definitely going to jail.

Micheal Brown slugged a police officer in the face causing injury. The officer has no real choice but to kill Michael Brown even if he tries to surrender.

Meanwhile in today's news, we are reminded of a case where a football player slugged his girlfriend, knocking her out with a single blow. A Grand Jury reviews the evidence, an indictment for third degree assault is issued, the player is sent to a diversion program. His record will be expunged if he follows the program and stays out of trouble for a year.

Comparing this last crime to what Michael Brown is alleged to have done, the idea that Brown had to die doesn't really make sense.

What does the professional football player's case have to do with MB??
 
1. It's far from "settled" that MB had a "clean record". The evasiveness and word parsing of everyone involved with the hearing for the juvenile records, in addition to Crump and Parks words (linked many times in earlier posts), telegraphs that there "is" a juvenile record that is being withheld. Two media entities continue to pursue release of these records. No one (well, beyond MB's mom), and including the JUDGE, is willing to say there are "no" juvenile records, which would END the pursuit to have anything that exists, released.

2. MB would likely have been charged with Robbery (not theft, not shoplifting-- big difference between these) in the Second degree for the convenience store robbery. Likely, assault charges would have been also attached. Maximum penalty for Robbery in the Second Degree in MO is 5-15 years. And we haven't begun to sort out the level of assault of the store clerk, and whether that was a felony or misdemeanor. And I personally believe if MB had lived to be charged, busting/ plea bargaining the robbery down to a misdemeanor "theft" would not have been possible, in light of the assault of the LEO which followed a mere 10min later, with a struggle for the officer's weapon. Likely attempted murder would have been charged for that. IMO.

http://www.missouri-criminal-defense.com/offenses/

http://www.missouri-criminal-defense.com/assault/

3. There is not a thing in MO law that I can find that states that the recipient of an assault must be rendered "unconscious" for it to be considered "serious" under the law.

4. And then we move into the multiple potential felony and misdemeanor penalties for the defiance of a request to move to the sidewalk, the assault of the police officer, the struggle over the officer's weapon, and all of the rest of the circumstances, and MB would have unquestioningly faced decades of prison time for his actions of Aug 9.

No, this would never, ever have been plea bargained down to something that was penalized with diversion or community service, had MB lived to be charged. OW was not a civilian , or an equal under the law, in the encounter with MB-- he was a sworn peace officer, an authority figure. I know that this imbalance of power chafes at some people, presumably those who have a big psychological or emotional problem with authority figures, but the fact is that they were not "equals" in the eyes of the law when the beginning of the encounter with MB, DJ, and OW began. This was not a bar brawl between civilians. Attacking a sworn police officer guarantees felony charges at a minimum, and struggling with a LEO over his/ her weapon is astonishingly brash and unwise, and very well might lead to the officer shooting you, dead.

It also could have resulted in the officer being shot dead but sadly, that would only be a 3 minute news item.
 
Thank you, Klood-N! It's not as if MB was profiled. He robbed a store, assaulted the clerk, then ignored a police officer's lawful order to get out of the street, then assaulted the police officer, then fled, then turned and charged the police officer. There was no profiling going on there, and this case isn't about profiling.The activists and instigators are trying to use this case as if it's their own personal candy store to demand everything they've ever wanted.

This case isn't about profiling, and it's not about traffic tickets. It's about a very large powerful man who committed several violent acts in a very short space of time, and who suffered the consequences of his choices.

My vote for "post of the day!" :goodpost:

Entirely correct. MB was not "profiled", and this situation has nothing to do with ignored and unpaid traffic tickets, or unlicensed drivers and vehicles, or race, or power, or poverty.
 
What does the professional football player's case have to do with MB??

Nothing. The situations are completely different, and not legally valid comparisons, IMO.
 
Nothing. The situations are completely different, and not legally valid comparisons, IMO.

But you have to admit, it was a great way of sneaking in another case (that we're not suppose to be doing on this thread) and posing it as no big deal LOL
 
From reading this thread, I have learned:

Michael Brown stole $50 worth of cigars and shoved a storekeeper. If he was still alive, he was definitely going to jail.
Micheal Brown slugged a police officer in the face causing injury. The officer has no real choice but to kill Michael Brown even if he tries to surrender.

Meanwhile in today's news, we are reminded of a case where a football player slugged his girlfriend, knocking her out with a single blow. A Grand Jury reviews the evidence, an indictment for third degree assault is issued, the player is sent to a diversion program. His record will be expunged if he follows the program and stays out of trouble for a year.

Comparing this last crime to what Michael Brown is alleged to have done, the idea that Brown had to die doesn't really make sense.

BBM. Not just mincing words here, but IMO, it is almost certain that MB would have been convicted and sent to prison (not jail-- big difference) based on the evidence in the multiple views of the store surveillance videos, as well as DJ's testimony, and the testimony of the store clerk and patron who called 911. There is a big difference between jail, and prison, and which charges lead to jail versus prison time. IMO, if he had lived to be charged for his offenses, he would have been convicted, and had a substantial prison sentence.
 
Nothing. The situations are completely different, and not legally valid comparisons, IMO.

Except for a predilection towards violence which seems to tie this whole mess together, in my opinion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
161
Guests online
258
Total visitors
419

Forum statistics

Threads
609,221
Messages
18,251,162
Members
234,580
Latest member
Джои Соренсен
Back
Top