I'm So Sorry For Your Loss.
GUILTY MO - Nicholas, 35, & Justin Diemel, 24, brothers missing, Clinton County, 21 July 2019 *ARREST* #2
- Thread starter adjones826
- Start date
Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread
I'm So Sorry For Your Loss.
Criminal Animal Abuse Case? Jurisdiction Issue
Thanks for your post. What an awful situation. It seems like clear cut animal abuse to us, from info we have read, seen, heard.
Does Foster wants Bourbon County Sheriff & prosecutor to bring charges against Nelson for criminal animal abuse? if so, jurisdiction is a major obstacle - maybe a concrete wall - for them in Kansas. Why?
Foster tells LE: Soon after calves were delivered to him at Ft. Scott/Bourbon County, Kansas farm in May, he had a vet examine them. In detailed report, vet found they had not been fed properly, etc. So Foster has some evidence that he was not responsible for malnourishment, so must have happened before he got them.
Let's say, Bourbon County Sheriff & prosecutor listen to Foster, see the calves, see contracts & documentation, and believe what is said about his arrangement/contract w Nelson, that Nelson was supposed to raise the calves, and they agree Nelson failed to feed adequately, to such an extent that Nelson's actions or inaction constituted animal abuse, under Kansas law.
Here's the jurisdiction problem w the ^: the criminal abuse happened in Missouri, and they have no jurisdiction to investigate & prosecute crimes occurring in another state. if the crime happens outside their jurisdiction, they could provide info to LE in county & state where it happened, but I cannot see animal abuse charges being brought in KS. ^imo
If Foster wants Bourbon County KS sheriff & prosecutor to bring charges for criminal fraud, jurisdiction, evidence, & other issues get {{{ETA: waaaaaaaay}}}} more complicated, imo.
If Foster wants to file a civil suit for breach of contract action or fraud against Nelson, he can, and for those actions his burden of proof to win - preponderance of the evidence - would be less onerous than for prosecutor in criminal case - beyond a reasonable doubt. The catch? No deep pockets to pay a judgment, hardly any pocket at all, on Nelson, who is already bogged down w earlier order to pay restitution in connection w his criminal conviction for fraud. ^jmo^
Sad, sad, sad for everyone, esp the Diemels family.
cass523
Thanks for your post. What an awful situation. It seems like clear cut animal abuse to us, from info we have read, seen, heard. Does Foster wants Bourbon County Sheriff & prosecutor to bring charges against Nelson for criminal animal abuse? if so, jurisdiction is a major obstacle - maybe a concrete wall - for them in Kansas. Why?
Foster tells LE: Soon after calves were delivered to him at Ft. Scott/Bourbon County, Kansas farm in May, he had a vet examine them. In detailed report, vet found they had not been fed properly, etc. So Foster has some evidence that he was not responsible for malnourishment, so must have happened before he got them.
Let's say, Bourbon County Sheriff & prosecutor listen to Foster, see the calves, see contracts & documentation, and believe what is said about his arrangement/contract w Nelson, that Nelson was supposed to raise the calves, and they agree Nelson failed to feed adequately, to such an extent that Nelson's actions or inaction constituted animal abuse, under Kansas law.
Here's the jurisdiction problem w the ^: the criminal abuse happened in Missouri, and they have no jurisdiction to investigate & prosecute crimes occurring in another state. if the crime happens outside their jurisdiction, they could provide info to LE in county & state where it happened, but I cannot see animal abuse charges being brought in KS. ^imo
If Foster wants Bourbon County KS sheriff & prosecutor to bring charges for criminal fraud, jurisdiction, evidence, & other issues get {{{ETA: waaaaaaaay}}}} more complicated, imo.
If Foster wants to file a civil suit for breach of contract action or fraud against Nelson, he can, and for those actions his burden of proof to win - preponderance of the evidence - would be less onerous than for prosecutor in criminal case - beyond a reasonable doubt. The catch? No deep pockets to pay a judgment, hardly any pocket at all, on Nelson, who is already bogged down w earlier order to pay restitution in connection w his criminal conviction for fraud. ^jmo^
Sad, sad, sad for everyone, esp the Diemels family.
Last edited:
It's my understanding that started as basically theft since Foster had purchased the cattle. He had the contracts and JN had the calves. That's why he kept trying to get his property back. These cows/calves most times are mortgaged and if the bank wants to get their collateral back or inspect it and are denied, that's theft or fraud. Criminal and not civil when you get into that amount of money. IMO
How Quickly can LE Act?
Thanks for your post. Welcome to Websleuths.
Does 'he' refer to Bourbon County KS sheriff office employees?
IIRC the vet's letter/report was dated May 31. IDK if Foster contacted Sheriff before or after then. I wonder what he/they could have done about a truckload of sick cattle being delivered to Foster in Ft. Scott, KS, from northern MO? Anybody catch a contact date during Foster's interview?
I'm confused or maybe have some ppl mixed up. How could Bourbon County KS LE have prevented animal abuse in northern MO, even before cattle delivery to KS? I better reread stories and rewatch vid.
I posted about jurisdiction problem ~ 1 hr ago.
@Beaumont
Thanks for your post. Welcome to Websleuths.Does 'he' refer to Bourbon County KS sheriff office employees?
IIRC the vet's letter/report was dated May 31. IDK if Foster contacted Sheriff before or after then. I wonder what he/they could have done about a truckload of sick cattle being delivered to Foster in Ft. Scott, KS, from northern MO? Anybody catch a contact date during Foster's interview?
I'm confused or maybe have some ppl mixed up. How could Bourbon County KS LE have prevented animal abuse in northern MO, even before cattle delivery to KS? I better reread stories and rewatch vid.
I posted about jurisdiction problem ~ 1 hr ago.
@Beaumont
hi again.Started as theft? I missed that.
Foster had contract w who to do what? I thought Foster had contract(s) w Nelson: Foster to buy calves, Nelson to raise calves, later sell, split $ in certain shares or %.
If so, how is that starting as theft? Maybe developed into an unlawful taking later.
As always, jmo, from info here, could have missed info in MSM.
Beaumont said: ↑
This REALLY Bothers me! If he had done his job, None of this with the brothers or animal abuse would of happened. I'm just sickened by All of it. At Least 10 Times! REALLY?? He needs another job IMO.
Restating/repeating my question(s) from ^ .
Re prosecutor, what could he have done, and how quickly could he have done it?
Are there earlier similar cases w Nelson, other than Foster-as-victim, that your post refers to? The bizapedia reviewer in Hiattville (sp?) KS? Or someone else?
Thx in adv.
This REALLY Bothers me! If he had done his job, None of this with the brothers or animal abuse would of happened. I'm just sickened by All of it. At Least 10 Times! REALLY?? He needs another job IMO.
Restating/repeating my question(s) from ^ .
Re prosecutor, what could he have done, and how quickly could he have done it?
Are there earlier similar cases w Nelson, other than Foster-as-victim, that your post refers to? The bizapedia reviewer in Hiattville (sp?) KS? Or someone else?
Thx in adv.
@Beaumont
Started as theft? I missed that.
Foster had contract w who to do what? I thought Foster had contract(s) w Nelson: Foster to buy calves, Nelson to raise calves, later sell, split $ in certain shares or %.
If so, how is that starting as theft? Maybe developed into an unlawful taking later.
As always, jmo, from info here, could have missed info in MSM.
Foster was the finance part of that deal. He was on the line with the bank/lien holders. The calves were collateral. The lien holders assume you are making sure the calves are cared for as collateral however you do it, on your own land or leased land.
Look at it like buying a vehicle on credit or co-signing for someone. The bank only cares that payments are made and their collateral is insured. If the vehicle goes missing, you still have to pay if insurance denies the claim. JN could Not get credit per terms of his release. He is still on parole.
Typically You insure cattle against acts of God/nature, other than that it's the money man (Foster) who's on the hook.
@Beaumont
Started as theft? I missed that.
Foster had contract w who to do what? I thought Foster had contract(s) w Nelson: Foster to buy calves, Nelson to raise calves, later sell, split $ in certain shares or %.
If so, how is that starting as theft? Maybe developed into an unlawful taking later.
As always, jmo, from info here, could have missed info in MSM.
When I said 'Started' I Should of said the "Problems" with Nelson and the bank wanting to see their collateral was ok.
@Beaumont
I think I'm starting to follow your post now. Let me try this.(Earlier Foster & Nelson entered contract(s) re refer trucks & a building/shed that Nelson wanted to move to his prop, but < not the main issue here.)
Foster & Nelson entered contract: Nelson to buy calves, Nelson to raise calves, later sell, split $ in certain shares or %.
Foster borrowed $ from bank to buy calves, offering the calves as security.
At some point, lender (was it a local-ish Bourbon County KS bank?) wanted verification of condition of the collateral. (Not sure how local-ish bank would typically check collateral - in northern MO farm/non-local-ish location.. Send a loan ofcr to MO farm? Or?)
I'm guessing bank, Foster, & Nelson went back and forth/round and round about calves' condition or how/when loan officer could check.
In the meantime, Foster knew Nelson had stopped making payments on refer trucks, so he was also concerned about calves' condition as well.
Ding-ding-ding ^ was this when problems 'started?'
So was Nelson exercising absolute control over calves, refusing to let bank inspect collateral, in essence, claiming ownership of cattle, i.e., an unlawful taking of property which was initially, lawfully in his custody & possession, that is, w Foster's permission?
If so, yes, I can see prosecutor seeing that as a theft by Nelson, action which could result in criminal charges.
Then trying to assuage Foster and/or bank, Nelson drove the sick/malnourished cattle from his farm or Amish-owned Missouri farm to Ft.Scott/Bourbon County KS. Or arranged to have cattle delivered there.
Is this anywhere close to what you think happened? Or when & where you think crime(s) occurred? Sorry I was slow on the uptake. Thx in adv.
cass523
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2016
- Messages
- 2,804
- Reaction score
- 28,716
From the video, JN took a total of 312 cattle to the Gingrich farm. The deal with Foster was 31 cattle then about 100 more from the Diemel brother's livestock company.
Where did the other 181 cattle come from?
Did I miss something? I may have. Does anyone know the answer to this?
Teleah Smith
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2019
- Messages
- 37
- Reaction score
- 296
Foster also said there was a separate deal between JN & the Diemels that he didn't know the specifics of.
@al66pine
Your post pretty much sums up my post except where you said "Nelson to buy the calves", it should be Foster buys the calves, Nelson to raise. I'm sure that was a typo!
It's Not uncommon in farming or communities with privately owned banks where they know you to just call the bank president or an officer you deal with and tell them you'd like a loan for property, equipment, vehicles or livestock, even operating expenses on a term loan and they tell you to just write a check, the money will be in you're account. You go in at your convenience and sign the papers. It's Very Unlike the big 'franchise' banks that have a ton of hoops to jump through.
It's My Opinion that Foster did alert his bank that there could be issues with these calves which would effect him being able to repay a loan on time. I'm Assuming this would of been a 6month loan to be paid in full after the calves went to the sale barn.
Foster seemed to me like the type that would get ahead of any possible issues instead of wait and hope for the best especially after he saw that Life After Leavenworth documentary. He also has that building business. If that was the case, a bank officer like what I described would of said, let's jump in the truck and go take a look, we might want to get theses calves out of there. MOO.
Like sluethlocal said, livestock/farming is boom or bust, IF the bottom falls out, you still have to pay what you borrowed and take the loss. Foster is still on the hook for what JN did and will have to take it as a loss. Hopefully, the lien holders of Diemel's will work something out in light of what appears to have happened.
What infuriates me about the Bourbon County Prosecutor is that since JN IS Still On Probation, Him Making A Phone Call to Any LE Dept. in Caldwwell County where Braymer is, would easily of been able to contact JN's probation officer and that Could of Stopped All of This BEFORE Diemels Ever Went There and Any More Animals Suffered or Died. There were in excess of 10 complaints filed!
Too Many Dropped Balls and I Agree 100% with Sluethlocal about Braymer Not Having resources, manpower or the experience to deal with what appears to have happened to the brothers. I'm pretty local too and have seen them in action. I Pray Everyday that This Time They Will Get It Right.
I'm sorry for the Rant, but I'm extremely upset about this whole thing.
Your post pretty much sums up my post except where you said "Nelson to buy the calves", it should be Foster buys the calves, Nelson to raise. I'm sure that was a typo!
It's Not uncommon in farming or communities with privately owned banks where they know you to just call the bank president or an officer you deal with and tell them you'd like a loan for property, equipment, vehicles or livestock, even operating expenses on a term loan and they tell you to just write a check, the money will be in you're account. You go in at your convenience and sign the papers. It's Very Unlike the big 'franchise' banks that have a ton of hoops to jump through.
It's My Opinion that Foster did alert his bank that there could be issues with these calves which would effect him being able to repay a loan on time. I'm Assuming this would of been a 6month loan to be paid in full after the calves went to the sale barn.
Foster seemed to me like the type that would get ahead of any possible issues instead of wait and hope for the best especially after he saw that Life After Leavenworth documentary. He also has that building business. If that was the case, a bank officer like what I described would of said, let's jump in the truck and go take a look, we might want to get theses calves out of there. MOO.
Like sluethlocal said, livestock/farming is boom or bust, IF the bottom falls out, you still have to pay what you borrowed and take the loss. Foster is still on the hook for what JN did and will have to take it as a loss. Hopefully, the lien holders of Diemel's will work something out in light of what appears to have happened.
What infuriates me about the Bourbon County Prosecutor is that since JN IS Still On Probation, Him Making A Phone Call to Any LE Dept. in Caldwwell County where Braymer is, would easily of been able to contact JN's probation officer and that Could of Stopped All of This BEFORE Diemels Ever Went There and Any More Animals Suffered or Died. There were in excess of 10 complaints filed!
Too Many Dropped Balls and I Agree 100% with Sluethlocal about Braymer Not Having resources, manpower or the experience to deal with what appears to have happened to the brothers. I'm pretty local too and have seen them in action. I Pray Everyday that This Time They Will Get It Right.
I'm sorry for the Rant, but I'm extremely upset about this whole thing.
@Beaumont
Like you, I am upset about this too. You're right; when I'm on the keyboard, I can make really BIIIIIIIG typos. Yes, should be --- Foster to buy, Nelson to raise. Do we have a handle on timing of these events? When, what month ---
1. did Foster & Nelson make contract re calves? Link?
2. did Foster borrow money from bank for calves deal? Link?
3. did Foster see Leaving Leavenworth? Link?
4. did Foster record phone conversations w Nelson? Link?
5. did Foster contact bank re his concerns? Link?
6. did Foster make first complaint to Bourbon County sheriff? Link?
7. were calves delivered to Foster's? Link?
Foster may have mentioned one of these ^ months in the KC TV station interview, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what happened when.
I have the sense that Foster did not become seriously concerned until April or May about calves' status or Nelson's evasive/objectionable behavior and then thought he should take action. If so, seems like most of the calves' deterioration had already occurred, so, very late. Poor calves. A terrible thing to deal with.
Was Foster able to restore some/any of these calves to reasonable health? To sell at auction?
Tippy Lynn
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2016
- Messages
- 7,282
- Reaction score
- 52,918
BBM
It’s also not uncommon for business owners to have a line of credit or revolving line of credit with their bank (including the big franchise banks) to use as needed.
jmo
LisaMay911
Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2019
- Messages
- 13
- Reaction score
- 77
I am just finally watching this clip. I am very upset that neither of these men Foster or Gingrich reported what was going on with the cattle to the authorities. The very least would be a welfare check of the animals. IMHO this could have all been prevented with a simple phone call or maybe two to local sheriff/dispatch center. Then lets talk about his probation agent, what kind of supervision was he getting? Was the PO doing home visits and if so where are those reports?
If one of them - Foster or Gingrich had reported and the S/O most likely would have seen who it was and that he was on probation or had a history it would not have been ignored. Besides that, if nothing was done another phone call or two would have been in order. As far as retaliation they could have asked to remain anonymous as many people do. Has anyone from LE or the news stations asked the dispatch center if there were any calls to any of the addresses where the cattle were?
Two chances at the very least to have possibly prevented the brothers deaths. This angers me. I recently retired from the 9-1-1 / dispatch center here in Brown Co. WI and people call with animal welfare checks ALL the time. No, the officers or deputies hate going but they do and if needed action is taken as needed and documented. So, so upsetting to see this clip. Sorry I will get off my soapbox now.
EDIT, make that 3 chances the clean up guy could have reported also.
Last edited:
LisaMay911
Thanks for your post. ^sbm Welcome to Websleuths. Looks like Brown Co. includes both Green Bay and area around/close to the Diemels' home and farm. Thank you for your service in the world of LE. Seems like a difficult job.
Does your county deal w more animal welfare checks for livestock or for pets?
Did you/do you hear much about the outcome of livestock checks? Many repeat calls? Thx in adv.
Last edited:
Teleah Smith
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2019
- Messages
- 37
- Reaction score
- 296
Yes in WI, there are plenty of calls to police for livestock. Many times they are "resting" in the fields lying down and people will call worried about the animals or call if they don't think they have access to shelter.
LisaMay911
Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2019
- Messages
- 13
- Reaction score
- 77
Thanks, for that. There was never ever a dull day, I miss it terribly. Gets in your blood.LisaMay911
Looks like Brown Co. includes both Green Bay and area around/close to the Diemels' home and farm. Thank you for your service in the world of LE. Seems like a difficult job.
Does your county deal w more animal welfare checks for livestock or for pets?
Did you/do you hear much about the outcome of livestock checks? Many repeat calls? Thx in adv.
That being said, the Diemels are located in Shawano County which has there own dispatch center. For our county we deal with more domestic - pet welfare calls just by virtue of the population of Green Bay vs more rural areas and the shrinking farmland in our county (and everywhere else)
LE goes on livestock checks, absolutely. Our county and the City of Green Bay has animal control which depending on where the call is located she or he would respond to if she/he was working A Deputy or Officer would go if they were not available and either take action right then and there or refer to animal control, either way animal control is made aware of animal welfare calls.
Yes we for the most part learn the outcome of most calls right away. Very sensitive calls, we only get parts.
Usually, the officers notes would be put in the "cad" (computer aided dispatch) call as to the disposition which we in dispatch would be able to see right away. However if it is a call that is requiring action and needs an actual "report" we would know that up in the center and inquire about it if the notes were not in the cad. If we know up in the center it is sounding legit, most of the dispatchers take interest and ask questions of the Officer. We are by nature a nosey bunch
We do have repeat calls and those flag in the system and we let responders know. When there are repeat calls, its usually a whole different story. I hope that makes sense. Hollar if not.