GUILTY MO - Tyler Dasher, 1, Affton, 15 Nov 2011 - #2

[lauriej]

..shelby's court appointed public defender:

https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/searchDockets.do


11/17/2011Entry of Appearance Filed

Filed By: TARA REBECCA CRANE

Preliminary Hearing Scheduled

Scheduled For: 01/05/2012; 10:30 AM ; LAWRENCE J PERMUTER JR; St Louis County



Tara Rebecca Crane

Practice Areas: Criminal Law
Admitted: 2000

Educated: University of Kentucky (B.A.); Southern Illinois University (J.D.)

Born: 1971

 

[BritsKate]

Most mothers who commit infanticide or filicide are beyond their teens. The average age is 23.4 years. Most neo-naticides are committed by younger mothers though.

Beyond talking to teenagers about abstinence and birth control - an important discussion in its own right to be sure - I think another legacy to our children is to teach them that the world owes them nothing. I know as parents our children are our entire world but at the same time they need to be taught to realise they are a very small piece of a very big humanity and their actions affect so many others.

A common, reoccurring theme in recent filicides (the past quarter century) is a level of selfish, apathetic entitlement. Mom wants her party time, adult time, freedom, or a partner who doesn't want children and so she murders her own.

JMHO

 

[winterrose]

Poor little Tyler Dasher,it appears the only ones who really cared about him were his two grandmothers and Shelby's friends and relatives.Now all these people will come out of the woodwork with the spotlight on this and tell how much they loved the little baby.I think of all the people involved I most feel sorry for Shelby's Mom and the father's Mom,who was the only one of his family involved in Tyler's life,according to people interviewed at the beginning of this.These men that get girls pregnant and are not involved in the child's lives is also very sad.

I'm so worried Shelby will get off and be let out to have more children.There's enough women out there that have killed their children and are let back out on the streets. KWIM They become the victims,in court,instead of the poor little children.

 

[JeannaT]

For some reason I watched NG last night. She was on a "tear." She not only disagreed with Marc Klass but her psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall was spot on. I usually take her comments with a grain of sand but last night it made me sit up and take notice. It sounds worse typed out than said quickly on tv, but to me it rings true. Just my opinion.

"BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I never disagree with Marc Klaas, but I think that what we`re seeing is Mommy is just not as highly organized a sociopath as Casey Anthony was, so she buckled and caved under the police investigation.

I know why she took that nap. She took that nap because she was relieved her child was gone. And I don`t think she beat the child because the child was crying. She beat him because she wanted him dead."

And later:


"BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": You know, Nancy --

GRACE: That nobody even knew as mommy in the crowd because she`s smiling and happy?

MARSHALL: I think she was relieved the baby was gone.

Nancy, what we know about homicide and infanticide is the perpetrator has tremendous relief after the commission of the crime. That relief can last from six months to three years. I think what happened is she has a personality disorder, severe. She was out the night before with a bunch of boys.

I think what happened, she wanted to have sex with someone, spend the night with someone. She had a crush on somebody. She wanted that little boy out of the way so that she could have a young woman`s life.

It`s the Casey Anthony syndrome, isn`t it? It`s the same thing we saw out on the stripper pole dancing, partying, and then poof, the child is gone. This thing about oh, he was crying so I had to beat him, she made that up after the fact. The fact is, this was a cruel, sustained attack. There was no soft kill. She didn`t poison him, she didn`t put a pillow over his face. What we see some mothers do. She chose the most cruel and heinous way to do this."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1111/17/ng.01.html

Wow. If I had to rank "evil" I would put someone who poisons their child way over someone who loses their cool and beats the child to death, with no apparent history of prior abuse. The kind of people who could premeditatedly poison their child is - IMHO - the lowest rank of human. Soulless.

I really don't think Shelby "chose" to kill him. I think she "chose" to batter him and after that he was dead. This is something you see so often in young male caregivers who aren't related to the child - they can't handle crying, and so they pound the child in an effort to make them stop. ?? It's kind of unusual, IMHO, for a mother to do this with no prior history. It's usually a guy who doesn't know and doesn't really like the baby.

 

[gitana1]

From what I remember -- NG asked Liz to get the number -- I will have to re-watch the video, and that is the number Liz gave to NG :


snipped from : http://www.kmov.com/news/local/St-L...h-calls-after-Nancy-Grace-show-134109118.html

The number given out on the Nancy Grace show was, in fact, the number for the St. Louis County Dispatch line. At this time it is unknown if the number that aired on Grace's show was an error or if Grace intentionally aired the number in hopes her fans would vent their frustrations with the county.



MOO ... NG was ON A TEAR last night ... she even disagreed with Marc Klaas about his comment regarding Shelby Dasher -- which is UNUSUAL for NG to disagree with Mr. Klaas -- and I FELT SO SORRY FOR MR. KLAAS !

IMO ... NG was RUDE to everyone last night ... :waitasec: -- IMO, more so than usual -- if that is possible !

However, I do understand the OUTRAGE and SD should have the "book thrown at her" for what she did Tyler !

MOO ...

What was Mark's comment that NG disagreed with? (I can't watch the whole clip).

I tend to also think she didn't go home and then decide "I'm going to kill him", but intense anger was obviously there. It must have been. I kind of feel her actions resulted from growing resentment of the little boy who wouldn't respect that her needs and wants come first.

But the way he was disposed, in a bush and so fast - that doesn't seem like someone who was at all connected to their child. I actually think sociopathic and evil casey anthony showed more of some kind of connection with her baby in the way she disposed of her - wrapped up and with the heart sticker, etc. And if Tyler was indeed left naked and bruised, perhaps not even dead yet, man. So cold. Like a broken doll she has no more use for.

 

[scapa]

Very interesting. This is EXACTLY what my young friends tell me about the popular approach of "attachment parenting". They say that the general principal is that by providing closeness (slings, baby packs, etc) in the first 9 months and being attentive to all the baby's needs that as they grow older they will be SO SECURE they will develop a normal healthy independence and strong sense of self. So.....by that explanation, a whiny clingy toddler may well NOT have felt secure and cared for at a younger age and is always in fear of being abandoned.

Then again, kids is kids. We followed that parenting model with both our little ones -- younger, who was born laid-back and happy, is still that way. Older, who was born a little anxious, is still that way. Our 24/7 attention and love still cannot convince him that dark things do not live among the shadows in his room.

I'm not sure what more could have been done in this case -- it seems clear that this mother was not in it for the long haul. To want to scream at a child who cannot/will not sleep is one thing -- lord knows many parents go through it -- but it is a long, steep step from that to beating her/him to death. I suspect this was someone who watched her identity disappear into her infant son and grew both tired and jealous of it. 99/100 perhaps, nothing might have come of it. But jealousy becomes guilt becomes rage -- and then we have this sad case.

s

 

[Thundar]

Wow. If I had to rank "evil" I would put someone who poisons their child way over someone who loses their cool and beats the child to death, with no apparent history of prior abuse. The kind of people who could premeditatedly poison their child is - IMHO - the lowest rank of human. Soulless.

I really don't think Shelby "chose" to kill him. I think she "chose" to batter him and after that he was dead. This is something you see so often in young male caregivers who aren't related to the child - they can't handle crying, and so they pound the child in an effort to make them stop. ?? It's kind of unusual, IMHO, for a mother to do this with no prior history. It's usually a guy who doesn't know and doesn't really like the baby.

I would assume (my opinion) the doctor was talking about poisoning such as Tylenol or Benedryl overdoses which would be much easier on the victim than watching your mother beat you to death with her bare hands. The victim would just fall asleep and not wake up.

I believe (my opinion) what the doctor meant by she wanted him dead was she had thoughts before the incident in which she was foot loose and fancy free without the burden of the victim. She did not necessarily just beat him because he was crying to get up but because she had previously thought about what an inconvenience it was to have to take care of him and she got mad enough that the day arrived and she took care of the problem.

Cold hearted! Between the beating and the dumping I don't believe the mother had very many loving feelings for the victim no matter what the family and friends' impressions were. Just my opinion.

 

[mikeysmommom]

Snipped & BBM : I agree ...

I was "surprised" how "spot on" Dr. Bethany was ...

BUT ... I felt so sorry for Mr. Klaas ! IMO, the "manner" in which NG responded to his comment was just "uncalled for" ...

It's okay to disagree, BUT ... NG was "too rough" IMO -- with everyone ...

MOO ...

For once I totally agree with Nancy 100%............She only confessed because she was 100% busted no other reason.If she indeed had a conscience she would have confessed BEFORE Tyler was found.Instead of smoking and chilling with her friends,smiling she would have been crying her eyes out.She enjoyed every second of her anguished mother and friends sympathy.COLD AS ICE IMO.:furious::furious::furious:
Bethany Marshall also disagreed with MR.Klaas.

GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, I have very rarely disagreed with you -- Marc Klaas a crime victim. His daughter, Polly, abducted, then murdered. He has been a tireless crusader ever since Polly`s death.

But I got to disagree with you about Mommy having a conscience. She only told the truth after cops had her cornered, after they busted her in one lie after the next. Mommy is the one who went home and took a nap after she killed her baby and threw his body in a local cemetery, hiding it behind bushes!

 

[JeannaT]

I've been out of pocket for a couple days, so I've missed a lot.

Is there any reason to believe she isn't telling the absolute truth when she says that she was partying, went to bed late, got angry at him in the morning for crying and not allowing her to sleep in, and beat him to death?

Considering she's being charged with 2nd degree murder, it appears LE believes her story.

Is there any evidence to suggest that this was premeditated, or that she had a lover, didn't want to be burdened with him, etc.?

 

[JeannaT]

What was Mark's comment that NG disagreed with? (I can't watch the whole clip).

I tend to also think she didn't go home and then decide "I'm going to kill him", but intense anger was obviously there. It must have been. I kind of feel her actions resulted from growing resentment of the little boy who wouldn't respect that her needs and wants come first.

But the way he was disposed, in a bush and so fast - that doesn't seem like someone who was at all connected to their child. I actually think sociopathic and evil casey anthony showed more of some kind of connection with her baby in the way she disposed of her - wrapped up and with the heart sticker, etc. And if Tyler was indeed left naked and bruised, perhaps not even dead yet, man. So cold. Like a broken doll she has no more use for.

Here's his comment:

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, Nancy, in this post-Casey Anthony era, I think that these disturbed women have learned or disturbed parents have learned that if they just keep their mouths shut that they may, indeed, be able to get away with murder.

So I think at least this woman had a conscience. At least this woman admitted to what she had done.

And the other thing that really stands out for me is the amazing law enforcement response we`re seeing in case after case after case of missing children now. They pull out all of the stops. They put helicopters in the air, get dogs on the ground, get boots on the ground and really give it every effort that they can.

 

[cocomod]

Yes, they have been pulling out every stop lately on some of the missing children cases - some not so much. I think that the LE really hunted hard for baby Lisa. I want to again reiterate that I commend this LE department for hunting with on division while interrogating with another division while the 911 call was still hot. I believe that this was the key to solving this case. I only wish that they had been more proactive in the interrogation dept with baby Lisa in the first few critical hours. I think that in the immediate afteraffect of a crime, people are more likely to slip up with stories and timelines. I think LE is more likely to catch any inconsistencies. JMHO. Kudos again to the detective that "broke" the story down and got a confession!! Kudos to LE for having someone with this kind of experience on their team.

 

[mikeysmommom]

I've been out of pocket for a couple days, so I've missed a lot.

Is there any reason to believe she isn't telling the absolute truth when she says that she was partying, went to bed late, got angry at him in the morning for crying and not allowing her to sleep in, and beat him to death?

Considering she's being charged with 2nd degree murder, it appears LE believes her story.

Is there any evidence to suggest that this was premeditated, or that she had a lover, didn't want to be burdened with him, etc.?

My daughter has a criminal justice degree,she was taught premeditation is formed within seconds.IMO she should be charged with 1st degree because after she hit Tyler the first time she kept going instead of stopping and getting help.

 

[Thundar]

I've been out of pocket for a couple days, so I've missed a lot.

Is there any reason to believe she isn't telling the absolute truth when she says that she was partying, went to bed late, got angry at him in the morning for crying and not allowing her to sleep in, and beat him to death?

Considering she's being charged with 2nd degree murder, it appears LE believes her story.

Is there any evidence to suggest that this was premeditated, or that she had a lover, didn't want to be burdened with him, etc.?

BBM

Boy I find that one hard to accept on the surface.

From what I understand 2nd degree is the booking charge. Is there not supposed to be a Grand Jury hearing to decide the final charge? I think I read that either earlier in this thread or in a previous thread.

 

[cluciano63]

I always understood 1st degree murder to mean that the person has time to stop and consider what they are doing...i.e. if she had killed him with one blow, for example, it might be 2nd degree, but multiple blows should be considered 1st degree, IMO.

I think what Marc K. was getting at, even if she was caught in lies, at least she DID confess, as opposed to someone else who was able to lie and lie and lie...JMO. Not giving her points, mind you, just thinking what he may have meant.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

What was Mark's comment that NG disagreed with? (I can't watch the whole clip).

I hope this helps !

Snipped and BBM: Marc Klaas said:

" ... At least this woman had a conscience." "At least this woman admitted to what she had done ..."

Nancy did not agree with Marc that "mommie had a conscience" ...

IMO, I think what Marc was trying to say was that when LE cornered Shelby, she eventually "broke" and "confessed" -- instead of coming up with a lot of bull and a bunch of "stories" ... and I think that's what Marc meant by "conscience" ...

I just wish NG would give her guests like Mr. Klaas a little more time to "explain" their comment if NG does not agree with it ... but -- that's NG for ya ! :innocent:


Tyler Dasher: Nancy 11/17/11 - YouTube

Marc Klaas comments start at appx: 13:35

 

[JeannaT]

I always understood 1st degree murder to mean that the person has time to stop and consider what they are doing...i.e. if she had killed him with one blow, for example, it might be 2nd degree, but multiple blows should be considered 1st degree, IMO.

I think what Marc K. was getting at, even if she was caught in lies, at least she DID confess, as opposed to someone else who was able to lie and lie and lie...JMO. Not giving her points, mind you, just thinking what he may have meant.

One blow might be manslaughter, or even a conviction of injury to a child.

But if you have several severe blows that aren't premeditated - that's murder second degree, IMHO.

To Mikey'sMom - the description for premeditation has changed in my lifetime. LE is now using it very very loosely in some cases. Like, if you step toward the person and punch them, that's premeditated cause look here, you stepped toward them. Premeditated.

It used to be you had to actually show EVIDENCE of real premeditation - that is "meditation" before the act. Buying supplies like plastic bags, poison, shovel, and setting up an alibi etc. True planning.

But, now, certain courts are now accepting that premeditation can happen in seconds. I just think that's an error, and should be reversed.

IMHO.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

For once I totally agree with Nancy 100%............She only confessed because she was 100% busted no other reason.If she indeed had a conscience she would have confessed BEFORE Tyler was found.Instead of smoking and chilling with her friends,smiling she would have been crying her eyes out.She enjoyed every second of her anguished mother and friends sympathy.COLD AS ICE IMO.:furious::furious::furious:

BBM and Snipped: I do AGREE with NG that "mommie" confessed because she was "busted" ... it's just NG can be so "rough" at times :innocent:

But IMO ... I guess what the differing point is:

WHEN did "mommie" realize she had a "conscience" ? This seems to be the point where many disagree -- which I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. And IF Shelby had ANY conscience at all -- she would have NEVER killed her baby !

I believe Shelby should be charged with the MAXIMUM PENALTY for what she did that adorable little baby !

But ... at some point, IMO "mommie" realized "the game was up" and LE was not "buying" her bull ...

MOO ...

 

[JeannaT]

BBM and Snipped: I do AGREE with NG that "mommie" confessed because she was "busted" ... it's just NG can be so "rough" at times :innocent:

But IMO ... I guess what the differing point is:

WHEN did "mommie" realize she had a "conscience" ? This seems to be the point where many disagree -- which I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. And IF Shelby had ANY conscience at all -- she would have NEVER killed her baby !

I believe Shelby should be charged with the MAXIMUM PENALTY for what she did that adorable little baby !

But ... at some point, IMO "mommie" realized "the game was up" and LE was not "buying" her bull ...

MOO ...

Just responding to what I've bolded - it does appear that she didn't confess quickly. The LE guy said something about the skill of the investigators being responsible for the quick resolution in this case . . . They didn't just bring her in and she broke down and confessed. It took some real doing. It seems.

 

[Stella5]

From KSDK live a few moments ago...

They've interviewed Shelby Dasher's boyfriend, Edgar (? last name wasn't clear)... he is stating that Shelby was with him at his house the night before the murder and all they were doing was just hanging out with a few friends... no drinks, no drugs. He also states that he was at Shelby's house and HE is the one that called 911.

WOW... if he was there, did he spend the night? What did he hear? And what he recounted to the news is very similar to what someone posted on KMOV's site that said Shelby was at their house hanging out playing XBOX, and they didn't drink or do drugs, but smoked a blunt. Last time I checked smoking a blunt was doing drugs... MOO.

KSDK will have more with him at 5 & 6.

 

[JeannaT]

From KSDK live a few moments ago...

They've interviewed Shelby Dasher's boyfriend, Edgar (? last name wasn't clear)... he is stating that Shelby was with him at his house the night before the murder and all they were doing was just hanging out with a few friends... no drinks, no drugs. He also states that he was at Shelby's house and HE is the one that called 911.

WOW... if he was there, did he spend the night? What did he hear? And what he recounted to the news is very similar to what someone posted on KMOV's site that said Shelby was at their house hanging out playing XBOX, and they didn't drink or do drugs, but smoked a blunt. Last time I checked smoking a blunt was doing drugs... MOO.

KSDK will have more with him at 5 & 6.

Wow that's weird. Leaves more questions unanswered . . .