Mr. Chaz Bono on Oprah, Mon. May 9, 2011

[Kimberlyd125]

In my opinion...
If Chaz Bono identifies himself as a man, then he is a man.
End of story.

I could identify myself as a tree, but I would not be a tree.

Identifying yourself as something you are not does not change your genetic makeup.

She was born a female and will die a female. No amount of surgery or hormones can change that.

 

[Emma Peel]

Why feel compelled to argue with the man about whether or not he's a man? :dunno: Those who do, IMO are off base.

Chaz is a he, because he is a competent adult that identifies as a he. No amount of insisting that he can't identify as male because he lacks body parts or he's missing a Y chromosome will make Chaz identify as a woman. Why should anyone insist he do so? It's not like he's trying to fool us. He's telling us his personal truth. Why say "no, sorry you're wrong, that's not who you are, and even if you traded in your bottom for a proper man bottom, your blood tests would prove otherwise". Why?

IMO, this is not a political issue. It's a gender identity issue. Psycho-bio-social issue.

Obviously - Chaz is well aware of his bio-genetics. His entire story is that he was biologically born a female, but all of his life, he has not identified as female, he's identified as male. It's been a struggle for him, he's happier now. IMO, this is what his interviews are about, and his book.

And so what about it? Is biology the arbiter of who and what is male and male-like and who and what is female and female-like? Is society? Culture? Religion? One's mother? One's father? One's bigotry?

For the record, scholars, psychologists, social science and medicine have all determined that most certainly is a difference between karyotype male/female (biological-chromosomal state) and being and the state of being psycho-socio-culturally male/female (gender identity).

One can, indeed, be biologically female, but socio-culturally gender-identified as male. It's not the simplest thing - but on the other hand - it really isn't that complicated either - and Chaz is but one example. Trans-identity works the other way too. And the other way and the other way - and basically along the whole continuum. Googling a number of wiki articles can answer many questions in this area. As in "when is a tree not a tree".

How one experiences their own Identity is what is the reality. The way people experience themselves (gender-wise) in the world is to be respected, IMO.

A gynephilic FtM transexual is what Chaz presents as. He is female-to-male trans, and he is gynephilic (libido preference is for a female sexual partner).

Gynephilic FtM transsexuals

Brain-based research has repeatedly shown that female-to-male transsexuals have several male-like characteristics in neuroanatomy. In 2010, a team of neuroscientists compared 18 female-to-male transsexuals with 24 male and 19 female gynephilic controls, using an MRI technique called diffusion tensor imaging or DTI.[104] DTI is a specialized technique for visualizing white matter of the brain, and white matter structure is one of the differences in neuroanatomy between men and women. The study found that the white matter pattern in female-to-male transsexuals was shifted in the direction of biological males, even before the female-to-male transsexuals started taking male hormones (which can also modify brain structure).

Another team of neuroscientists, led by Nawata in Japan, used a technique called single-photon emission computed tomography (SPECT) compare the regional cerebral blood flow (rCBF) of 11 female-to-male transsexuals (attracted to women) with that of 9 biological females (attracted to men). Although the study did not include a sample of biological males so that a conclusion of "male shift" could be made, the study did reveal that the female-to-male transsexuals showed significant decrease in blood flow in the left anterior cingulate cortex and a significant increase in the right insula, two brain regions known to respond during sexual arousal.[105]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender"]Transgender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Tipton_portrait.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e2/Tipton_portrait.jpg/220px-Tipton_portrait.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/e/e2/Tipton_portrait.jpg/220px-Tipton_portrait.jpg[/ame]


FWIW, Gender Studies has been a course of study on US campuses for several generations now. Plenty of research & literature to peruse. To read more about gender identity and related issues and research in this area - just google related topics.

What's new (well, if not new, then rare), is Chaz is sharing his difficult experience with identity. And I give him tons of credit for that.

BTW, this is Chaz's third book. He's published twice before. Both well-reviewed tomes. Under the name Chastity Bono. Each book had to do with his life's struggle with gender identity.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity"]Gender identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png[/ame]

:cow:

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I don't think anybody is insisting she do anything.
Just giving an opinion that just because people identify as something they are not, it does not change what they are.

She is a she who lives as a he.

Simple science.

 

[Beyond Belief]

If Chaz Bono wants to be a dude its okay by me. I heard his interview and I liked him.

 

[Emma Peel]

No matter what... Chaz will always be a woman.She may live like a man and look like one but she will always be a she.Surgery doesn't even change the cold hard fact of the matter.

No, that was decided at conception. Her DNA will never change.
She will never be a he.

JMO

Like I said...she will always be a female.

I know. I was agreeing with you.
:smile:

ITA with you.

In my opinion...
If Chaz Bono identifies himself as a man, then he is a man.
End of story.

I could identify myself as a tree, but I would not be a tree.

Identifying yourself as something you are not does not change your genetic makeup.

She was born a female and will die a female. No amount of surgery or hormones can change that.

I don't think anybody is insisting she do anything.
Just giving an opinion that just because people identify as something they are not, it does not change what they are.

She is a she who lives as a he.

Simple science.

Actually, the science of gender identity is not "simple science". :waitasec:

see BBM above:
Chaz's entire point is that he hasn't changed who he is. In his heart & mind this is who he has always been.

His only argument about his chromosomes is with nature.

BTW, those quotes all insist that transgendered people can never become the opposite sex - lots of that insisting going on in this thread.

I suppose I shouldn't ask. But what the hey.

When Chaz completely transitions and has corrective genital surgery and a penis between his legs, then can we use the pronoun "he" when speaking of him? Is it the missing penis that's causing confusion with Chaz being transgendered? :innocent:

Or is the confusion simply that someone born with female sex traits could believe they should have been born with male sex traits and elects to have medical procedures to transition their sex?

:cow:

 

[Melanie]

I could identify myself as a tree, but I would not be a tree.

Identifying yourself as something you are not does not change your genetic makeup.

She was born a female and will die a female. No amount of surgery or hormones can change that.

With no disrespect to Chaz, that was really funny! I really don't care what people do behind closed doors (unless they are messing with children or murdering someone). But I must admit it confuses my son and I do not know how to explain it to him. He's 14.

Well dear, he was born a she, but wants to be a he, because he always felt he wanted to be a he. It's like "wait a minute, I thought Chaz was a girl", now he's a boy?

I have a hard enough time with the birds and the bees, and know I have to warn him that there are some girls out there with peni, and some men out there with a vajayjay.

In my world, and my world only, and not imposing on any WS here, there is something wrong with that picture. I never learned of trans-gender until I was well into my 20's (and not something my mother ever told me). Now it's on Good Morning America and every other network news channel.

Again, just my opinion, and I hope you will respect my opinion, as I respect yours.

Hugs,

Mel

 

[Emma Peel]

Here's something else to learn from Chaz and Cher's experience.


How do we know if our own children are gender-identifying and sexually-preferencing differently than we ourselves do?


Answer:

We don't.

...unless they tell us.


JMHO & food for thought.:innocent:

 

[1000Sparks]

Personally I find this whole thing disgusting. Does he want to date girls?

If his mom didn't have the money, what would she have done.

Going on TV to show "look at me now" is so degrading.

Beautiful little girl God made and he destroyed it.

 

[Donjeta]

How do we know that God didn't make a beautiful transgendered person?

 

[Melanie]

How do we know that God didn't make a beautiful transgendered person?

I personally don't know that - which is why I find it so difficult. The only thing I can compare it to is that some babies are born with both female and male parts, and that becomes quite a conflict in that person. In most cases the parents "pick" which part to remove -- often in later life this proves to be wrong according to the person (too many lifetime movies).

I don't even begin to know what's going on in the mind of Chaz. I can only wish Chaz the best.

ALSO, I don't appreciate Chaz reaching out to Shiloh (Jolie/patt's) kid saying that she has someone to go to if she wants to be a man, as per the local latest trash magazine (because she wants to dress like her brothers). I found that completely innapropriate. My son carried a doll, is Chaz gonna be there for him just in case? ICK.

Again, just my opinion - thanks.

Mel

 

[Herding Cats]

I am fairly uneducated on the subject, and don't know any transgendered person well enough to ask (I know of one, but she isn't very friendly, and I would not want to get that personal with her).

I also have a bit of a negative history with a male to female TG. Never mind what, but suffice it to say it's pretty negative.

That being said, I spent some time watching a documentary this morning on Youtube, called "Bodyshock." I found it sad, interesting, and not terribly educational, but it was more than I knew this morning. But I came away from this documentary with a feeling of deception from the families, and of families quite skewed in some ways.

The TG does not fit into my world view very well. Then again, God says don't judge, that's His job, so I do what I can to curb my own judgment about TGs. I don't know what to think, and while I feel bad for a lot of folks who are "different", because of what society does to them, I can't muster the same sympathy here.

I hate to admit it. And I wouldn't care if they ended up in a hospital bed in front of me - they'd get my best, just like everyone else. But I'd be less than honest if I said "sure, fine, whatever."

I don't know what else to say, other than I wish peace to everyone...and that Chaz saying something about Shiloh was out of line.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Emma Peel]

*sigh*

chaz's comment was pulled out of him by an interviewer who brought up shiloh's name (chaz did not) as an example of a tomboy and what would he do if a tomboy's parents were worried and wanted advice.

chaz, who clearly needs more practice with the seedy entertainment press, answered, IMO, in a kind and caring manner.

it was a hypothetical question, not invented by chaz, yet chaz kindly provided a hypothetical answer.

So... now let's crucify him for it because he's weird and scary and has the audacity to share his journey.

By the way, it's National LBGT Month. Chaz knows that b/c he's an activist for Transgenders & LBGT in general.

LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL, AND TRANSGENDER PRIDE MONTH, 2009
- - - - - - -
BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
A PROCLAMATION

Forty years ago, patrons and supporters of the Stonewall Inn in New York City resisted police harassment that had become all too common for members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community. Out of this resistance, the LGBT rights movement in America was born. During LGBT Pride Month, we commemorate the events of June 1969 and commit to achieving equal justice under law for LGBT Americans.

LGBT Americans have made, and continue to make, great and lasting contributions that continue to strengthen the fabric of American society. There are many well-respected LGBT leaders in all professional fields, including the arts and business communities. LGBT Americans also mobilized the Nation to respond to the domestic HIV/AIDS epidemic and have played a vital role in broadening this country's response to the HIV pandemic.

These issues affect not only the LGBT community, but also our entire Nation. As long as the promise of equality for all remains unfulfilled, all Americans are affected. If we can work together to advance the principles upon which our Nation was founded, every American will benefit. During LGBT Pride Month, I call upon the LGBT community, the Congress, and the American people to work together to promote equal rights for all, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim June 2009 as Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month. I call upon the people of the United States to turn back discrimination and prejudice everywhere it exists.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this first day of June, in the year of our Lord two thousand nine, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-third.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Presidential-Proclamation-LGBT-Pride-Month/

I don't know why. Just felt like posting that. Gonna post it over on the Disney Gay Day thread too.

By the way ... please note that the "T" stands for Transgender.

 

[Capri]

For some reason, this whole Chaz/formerly Chastity issue doesn't bother me so much. "His" chromosomes are xx. can't change that, but he has chosen to live as a male, and used plastic surgery (as many have, only usually for implants, nose jobs, more "acceptable" forms of changes). Really, though, he's ok with it, his girlfriend is ok with it, Cher's ok with it, there are much worse things to worry about. JMHO, of course. I do kind of wonder if he's content now, mostly because of the need to keep explaining himself via writing books, etc.... I would wish him more comfort in his own skin than I think he has...male or female.

 

[Emma Peel]

For some reason, this whole Chaz/formerly Chastity issue doesn't bother me so much. "His" chromosomes are xx. can't change that, but he has chosen to live as a male, and used plastic surgery (as many have, only usually for implants, nose jobs, more "acceptable" forms of changes). Really, though, he's ok with it, his girlfriend is ok with it, Cher's ok with it, there are much worse things to worry about. JMHO, of course. I do kind of wonder if he's content now, mostly because of the need to keep explaining himself via writing books, etc.... I would wish him more comfort in his own skin than I think he has...male or female.

Perhaps because people like Chaz are honestly documenting, writing and sharing their experience, the rest of world might someday learn what their journey has been like. Good, bad, better, indifferent... each will have their own journey for their own reasons no doubt.

IMO, many people have extraordinarily difficult journeys of self-discovery. When they choose to share it, they should be respected - not criticised. I'm in no position to agree or disagree with Chaz's choices here b/c I really don't know him.

As you wisely point out above, those who really know him seem quite content with his choices, and agree that he's a happier Chaz than he was a Chastity.

And that's good enough for me. And good enough reason to listen to Chaz as he shares his story.

:cow:

 

[1000Sparks]

and God didn't make transvestites. It's choosing right from wrong...

and going on the tv circuit and a book turns my stomach. I know, I know, I don't have to read it but why would anyone want to?

 

[dodie20]

well, if the operation hasn't been completed, I don't think Chaz should be sounding off on this. He's speaking from a limited perspective...a superficial view, IMO. On the outside, he looks like a man, but the most important physical part is still female . Until he makes the full committment, there are a lot better spokes people...unless this was the result he was after? to retain female genitalia? The other night, I watched an HBO documentary about sex changes in Iran. Surprisingly, this country is pretty accepting and can back it up with religion...but the families were just as confused and depressed as anybody. I consider myself pretty open minded, but this is the one area where I'm pretty close minded. IDK why, but I just think we should leave Mother Nature alone. I don't like any surgery in general, and the thought of some money hungry doctor just hacking away, worries me. The few transgender people I've dealt with have a few things in common. They came from terrible homes, were severly abused, and I worry they were taught to hate themselves so much, that they want to erase that person from existence. One guy in particular, came from the most physically abusive home, I've ever seen. His younger brother, while still in elementary school, shot and killed a friend, and now this guy is wanting this operation. IDK, but I see a lot of self hatred and psychological scars that no operation is going to fix. When he's a she, I think he will still be the same scarred, unhappy person on the inside.. and to top it off, he's married to a woman old enough to be his grandmother.

 

[LunaticFringe]

Chaz Bono lives as a man.
Chaz Bono was born and will die genetically a female.

I wish Chaz a very happy and fulfilling life.Chaz has a girlfriend that has been involved with Chaz for a very long time.May they both be loved and happy.

It is what it is.

 

[southcitymom]

In my opinion...
If Chaz Bono identifies himself as a man, then he is a man.
End of story.

Agree 100%.

 

[southcitymom]

How do we know that God didn't make a beautiful transgendered person?

Obviously, She does!

Human sexuality is a spectrum and a mystery; not a black and white science. But as a general rule, I think people are more comfortable viewing it as black and white.

I'm friends with several transgendered people (all former shes who are now hes) in various stages of pre and post. Though some consider their path unnatural, my experience has been that they're just like the rest of us.

I'm a fan of people speaking and living out their truths, so Chaz gets high marks from me in his decision to live out loud with this. If his openness about his sexuality gives hope and peace to just one other person who might be struggling with the same issues, then he has made the right choice!

 

[southcitymom]

and God didn't make transvestites. It's choosing right from wrong...

and going on the tv circuit and a book turns my stomach. I know, I know, I don't have to read it but why would anyone want to?

BBM

Because nothing human is foreign to me!

I love to learn about the different paths people chose as they make their way through life. No matter how bizarre or off the beaten path some choices are, when people are honest about their journeys, they have a lot of spiritual wisdom to offer to the rest of us.