GUILTY MT - Sherry Arnold, 43, Sidney, 7 Jan 2012 - #3

[daisy.faithfull]

I wonder if they shoe was found right next to the road or way out in the field? I wonder when they will tell us what the "substance" was they found on her shoe? Regardless of how the incident unfolded, LE believes they took her. When an abduction occurs, isn't it usually just one man taking a woman? Not two or more? That is my biggest reason for thinking she was hit and taken to hide evidence. From there, I think they hid her quickly. They would not want to be pulled over with her in their possession. I believe she is buried very close to where her shoe was found.

Pat Brown said on HLN that before they had the suspects she felt two men were involved in Sherry's abduction. She said that most abductors will go for a woman about 5'+ in height and 120lb. In mind that just must be a general tendency, because while I don't know the stats I'm fairly certain women over 5 feet who weigh 120 are abducted.

But Sherry is quite tall, so she probably wouldn't be the type of woman who appears vulnerable and easy to attack/carry. Any how Pat B. said that the suspects may have had this "comradery" guy bonding stuff going on and they saw a potential victim that the two of them could capture quickly, and that's all it took.

Maybe they were driving around town, who knows. I wonder if because of the weather Sherry was the only one out jogging that morning. It has been reported that someone witnessed the suspect's vehicle hovering around Sherry. If that's the case, who knows how long they had been following her waiting for the right moment.

At first I thought maybe they had attempted the abduction on the road and Sherry had made a run for the field. But when I go for walks on the road, you can feel it when a driver is acting weird, so I wonder if she made a run for the field before they even got out of the car, they chased her and in the struggle, perhaps as one suspect held her upper body, while the other held her legs/ankles, one of her shoes feel off. I wonder if it was easy to drive the vehicle off the road and onto the field.

Looking at that field I wonder if her shoe could fly so far off the road if she was hit by the car.

Whatever the case, maybe LE has tire tracks or a lack of tire tracks that has given them a good idea of what happened that morning.

What are snow tires like? Do those chains prevent tires from leaving skid marks like other tires? I wonder if there are any skid marks still remaining on the road.

 

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

Snow tires have deeper and wider treads than a typical tire, and chains would not prevent skid marks, however the marks would be distinctive.

But there has not been any real snow this winter, and the weather had been unusually warm the weekend she was kidnapped. Temperatures had been in the 50s and 60s, breaking records all over the region on the week prior. It was only after she was kidnapped did the weather get very cold. However even though the weather was warm at the time she was kidnapped, there has been enough cold weather this season to freeze the ground. And with no snow cover, the ground will freeze even faster and deeper. Therefore any attempt to bury her would not have been easy and probably would have required something more than a shovel to break the ground up.

I don't want to gross anyone out, but one of my concerns is that these two may have just covered her with old branches and dead trees. That would subject her to coyotes and other scavengers. Thus when or if her body is found, evidence on her body might be disturbed.

 

[Questionning Mind]

Snow tires have deeper and wider treads than a typical tire, and chains would not prevent skid marks, however the marks would be distinctive.

But there has not been any real snow this winter, and the weather had been unusually warm the weekend she was kidnapped. Temperatures had been in the 50s and 60s, breaking records all over the region on the week prior. It was only after she was kidnapped did the weather get very cold. However even though the weather was warm at the time she was kidnapped, there has been enough cold weather this season to freeze the ground. And with no snow cover, the ground will freeze even faster and deeper. Therefore any attempt to bury her would not have been easy and probably would have required something more than a shovel to break the ground up.

I don't want to gross anyone out, but one of my concerns is that these two may have just covered her with old branches and dead trees. That would subject her to coyotes and other scavengers. Thus when or if her body is found, evidence on her body might be disturbed.

I think it would have taken those two way to long to cover her with old branches and dead trees. They wouldn't want to hang around any place to long because they weren't familiar with the area and really had no idea when someone may come upon them. I wonder if ANY new evidence has been reported?

 

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

I think it would have taken those two way to long to cover her with old branches and dead trees. They wouldn't want to hang around any place to long because they weren't familiar with the area and really had no idea when someone may come upon them. I wonder if ANY new evidence has been reported?

If they stayed in the valley there would have been no shortage of dead trees, branches, and other debris. It's been a strange year. Last winter there was record snowfall not only in the Williston-Sidney area but throughout the entire Yellowstone River drainage basin. Consequently last summer there was record setting flooding. The water stayed high all summer. Thousands of trees drowned and died and places that had never seen water were covered with dead trees, parts of old buildings, and any sort of debris that would float once the water went down at the end of the summer.

My mom's place is on the river. My brother and I will probably be busy much of next summer gathering and burning the driftwood and trash that washed in last year.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Lesser Include Offenses: Lesser included offense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Throw everything at them and see what sticks. This is where the skill of investigators and prosecutors come in. Having the help of the FBI will be a monumental boost for this case; they have the technical abilities/capabilities that a small jurisdiction won't have.

Okay, so even if the feds are not going to prosecute the suspects for whatever reason, perhaps because they don't know if they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt if a border was crossed or a crime was committed within a native nation, its kosher for the feds to assist MT or/and ND with their cases. :great: Maybe this is why the feds are saying that they are waiting to see how they will proceed???

I've seen on anti-DP sites that the DP may be a thing of the past in MT but as far as MSM I'm only seeing stuff about Tyler Michael Miller whose lawyer has filed a motion related to the death penalty when aggravating circumstances are involved. While the article mentions only homicide, the difference between aggravated kidnapping and kidnapping is that in the former aggravating factors are proven to exist.

http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/attorneys_argue_that_death_penalty_law_is_unconstitutional/24467/
Sheehy argued that the state’s death penalty law incorrectly gives judges the power to determine if there were aggravated circumstances warranting capital punishment.

In their June filing, the attorneys wrote state law violates the U.S. Constitution, which, in part, requires that, “other than prior convictions, any fact increasing a penalty beyond the statutory maximum must be submitted to a jury, and proven beyond a reasonable doubt.”

The attorneys cited a U.S. Supreme Court decision Ring v. Arizona, in which the court holds that juries should decide if there are aggravating circumstances to support the death penalty.

According to Ring v. Arizona, Montana is one of four states that give capital sentencing fact-finding power and capital punishment sentencing power entirely to judges.

If my understanding of Felon Miller's situation is correct, he unsuccessfully tried for guilty by reason of insanity, and when that didn't work he pled guilty *without a plea deal and is currently waiting for the judge's decision.

*another article says this:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/kalispell-man-may-avoid-death-penalty-in-christmas-day-murders/article_99ec1adc-3191-11e1-8eb5-001871e3ce6c.html
"The plans are that he is not going to get the death penalty," said Butch Hurlbert, whose daughter and granddaughter were shot dead by Tyler Michael Miller. "He'll get life in prison without parole. I don't agree with it."
Miller, 34, pleaded guilty in Flathead County District Court to two counts of deliberate homicide in the deaths of Jaimi Hurlbert, 35, and Alyssa Burkett, 15.
. But Butch Hurlbert, who attended Wednesday's hearing with anothThere's no plea agreement in the case, according to the court clerk's officeer daughter, Jennifer Hurlbert of Whitefish, said he met last week with Flathead County Attorney Ed Corrigan, who told him about the plan for life imprisonment.

I guess it will be interesting to see what happens with that. Recent events must be all the more gut wrenching for a state that hasn't had many executions or prisons on death row yet now have a cluster of cases that could result in the DP.

I really feel for this community.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

If they stayed in the valley there would have been no shortage of dead trees, branches, and other debris. It's been a strange year. Last winter there was record snowfall not only in the Williston-Sidney area but throughout the entire Yellowstone River drainage basin. Consequently last summer there was record setting flooding. The water stayed high all summer. Thousands of trees drowned and died and places that had never seen water were covered with dead trees, parts of old buildings, and any sort of debris that would float once the water went down at the end of the summer.

My mom's place is on the river. My brother and I will probably be busy much of next summer gathering and burning the driftwood and trash that washed in last year.

And LE is saying to look at dead trees. Its been speculated that came from one of the suspects, but there was an ex-fbi agent that commented that a witness would not be able to describe dead trees, scientifically analyzed evidence would give investigators that info though.

 

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

Okay, so even if the feds are not going to prosecute the suspects for whatever reason, perhaps because they don't know if they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt if a border was crossed or a crime was committed within a native nation, its kosher for the feds to assist MT or/and ND with their cases. :great: Maybe this is why the feds are saying that they are waiting to see how they will proceed???

There is a LOT of Federal land in the area, much more than most people realize. Starting near the confluence of the Yellowstone and Missouri rivers and down stream from there almost 100% of the bottom land is owned by the US Army Corps of Engineers. Much of the land in McKenzie County North Dakota is owned by the US Forest Service. Sidney is so close to the state line and so close to Federal land that unless these idiots killed and disposed of her body almost immediately, there is a good chance this can become a Federal case with capitol punishment as an option.

 

[Noway]

Why would a witness not recognize a dead tree as a dead tree? Pines would be easy of course but if surrounded by live trees (of same type), wouldn't identifying the dead ones be pretty easy?

eta
STEVE MOORE: Well, I think they`re determining it from the statements the guys made. I`m sure they said something like, "Well, yes, we hit her and she`s dead, and we can`t remember where we put her."

The fact, though, that they`re look for old growth trees in those tree belts along fields and with dead trees around would indicate to me that maybe they have some physical evidence. Things that were in the sole of their shoes. Things that the FBI lab would have come up with and said the tree was this old, it was dead. And then you can match that to the type of trees and where they would be in the area.

I think this is more, you know, witnesses say large trees along a road. When you`re looking for old growth trees, witnesses don`t say that. Evidence says that.

And the fact, by the way, that they`ve been charged with aggravated kidnapping pretty much says that they don`t believe the hit-and-run theory or the hit-and-take theory, because aggravated kidnapping in Montana means you kidnapped for a later purpose. So they are saying that the crime that aggravated it happened after they took her, not before.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1201/16/ijvm.01.html

 

[Noway]

His MS does list his hometown as Lafayette LA. And his employment indicated he had farm worker experience.

eta
Thinking maybe someone with farm worker experience might have heard the term "old growth" ...

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

Why would a witness not recognize a dead tree as a dead tree? Pines would be easy of course but if surrounded by live trees (of same type), wouldn't identifying the dead ones be pretty easy?

eta
STEVE MOORE: Well, I think they`re determining it from the statements the guys made. I`m sure they said something like, "Well, yes, we hit her and she`s dead, and we can`t remember where we put her."

The fact, though, that they`re look for old growth trees in those tree belts along fields and with dead trees around would indicate to me that maybe they have some physical evidence. Things that were in the sole of their shoes. Things that the FBI lab would have come up with and said the tree was this old, it was dead. And then you can match that to the type of trees and where they would be in the area.

I think this is more, you know, witnesses say large trees along a road. When you`re looking for old growth trees, witnesses don`t say that. Evidence says that.

And the fact, by the way, that they`ve been charged with aggravated kidnapping pretty much says that they don`t believe the hit-and-run theory or the hit-and-take theory, because aggravated kidnapping in Montana means you kidnapped for a later purpose. So they are saying that the crime that aggravated it happened after they took her, not before.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1201/16/ijvm.01.html

If the trees werent evergreens and the leaves were gone for the winter, I guess I wouldn't be able to tell a dead tree from a live but leafless tree, unless it was half fallen or something.

 

[Noway]

I think we're only supposed to provide the link to the MS and FB pages ... no screen shotopy and paste from the site (use own words to direct people where you want them to go) ...

ETA
Rules Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

It's here.

 

[4UIhelp]

Snow tires have deeper and wider treads than a typical tire, and chains would not prevent skid marks, however the marks would be distinctive.

But there has not been any real snow this winter, and the weather had been unusually warm the weekend she was kidnapped. Temperatures had been in the 50s and 60s, breaking records all over the region on the week prior. It was only after she was kidnapped did the weather get very cold. However even though the weather was warm at the time she was kidnapped, there has been enough cold weather this season to freeze the ground. And with no snow cover, the ground will freeze even faster and deeper. Therefore any attempt to bury her would not have been easy and probably would have required something more than a shovel to break the ground up.

I don't want to gross anyone out, but one of my concerns is that these two may have just covered her with old branches and dead trees. That would subject her to coyotes and other scavengers. Thus when or if her body is found, evidence on her body might be disturbed.

Your last in bold was my concern, and Im glad you said it...I thought it would have been heartless of me to say that.....so am glad you brought it up.

My family raises cows and horses and have seen what coyotes and other varmits have done to them after one has died, same goes for deer. THATS WHY ITS IMPORTANT she be found while cold.

Also have talked to many in the area that have checked but say alot of there ground is already disturbed by survey for well stacking, so its hard for them to tell.
The picture of the orange flags reminds me of oil site flags(survey) and the one looks like it is faded and torn, I have seen those flags on many sites befor they put up lath. Also my husband moves dirt for locations, and he even mention that they would have had to have a ripper to have gotton through the frost line. also on many locations there is heavey equipment and anyone with knowledge of it could start and use it,(kids have been known to screw off and mess with it leading to takeing keys out but not all do) alot of locations have dirt piled for spreading, and pits already dug.......so was wondering if LE has checked these sites as it would be an easy one for them to locate. Just a thought when I read about those flags.

 

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

[/b]

Your last in bold was my concern, and Im glad you said it...I thought it would have been heartless of me to say that.....so am glad you brought it up.

My family raises cows and horses and have seen what coyotes and other varmits have done to them after one has died, same goes for deer. THATS WHY ITS IMPORTANT she be found while cold.

Also have talked to many in the area that have checked but say alot of there ground is already disturbed by survey for well stacking, so its hard for them to tell.
The picture of the orange flags reminds me of oil site flags(survey) and the one looks like it is faded and torn, I have seen those flags on many sites befor they put up lath. Also my husband moves dirt for locations, and he even mention that they would have had to have a ripper to have gotton through the frost line. also on many locations there is heavey equipment and anyone with knowledge of it could start and use it,(kids have been known to screw off and mess with it leading to takeing keys out but not all do) alot of locations have dirt piled for spreading, and pits already dug.......so was wondering if LE has checked these sites as it would be an easy one for them to locate. Just a thought when I read about those flags.

On old buck died in my shelter belt last fall. About a week later I decided that the rack might look interesting over the porch so I went out with a saw to get it. The entire dear carcass was gone, not a trace of it!

OT: When I was in high school a friend and I found an unattended Cat at a construction site in Williston. We had never been on one before but managed to start it up and play with it for about a half hour, moving dirt around. I am surprised we never got caught!

 

[Questionning Mind]

Especially with Waters supposed past history of construction work. He would know just what to do. I sure wonder where they were Sat through Thurs eve when they apparently were arrested. From what I understand there is not even a chance of getting a hotel in the area and WalMart parking lot is full of people living in their vehicles in Williston.

 

[4UIhelp]

Especially with Waters supposed past history of construction work. He would know just what to do. I sure wonder where they were Sat through Thurs eve when they apparently were arrested. From what I understand there is not even a chance of getting a hotel in the area and WalMart parking lot is full of people living in their vehicles in Williston.

Thats right and thats why I wonder if they may have gone into south dakota and some how waters ended back in williston, they would have been sleeping in there car/pickup if not. (THER JUST IS NO PLACE TO STAY) unless they drove to plentywood but even that is out of the way and slim chance of getting a room.

 

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

[/b]
Thats right and thats why I wonder if they may have gone into south dakota and some how waters ended back in williston, they would have been sleeping in there car/pickup if not. (THER JUST IS NO PLACE TO STAY) unless they drove to plentywood but even that is out of the way and slim chance of getting a room.

They must have been living in the vehicle. The nearest motel rooms open probably would be Miles City, Glasgow, or Bismarck and even those are not going to be affordable for a couple of out of work losers.

 

[GrainneDhu]

That is an excellent description of the magnitude of the area involved and why a systematic search of everything is impossible.

I'll just add that much of the land is owned by people who no longer live in the area. It's leased or rented by larger farmers. For example, I own land 200 miles from where I live. If there was a search going on in that area it would not be practical for me to go down there. But I know that the guy who rents my land would do it without being asked. People around here have a strong sense of community and will check the land they own and rent. They want her found as much as anyone does.

A very small farm or ranch would be three to five square miles. Operations of 10 to 20 square miles are typical. They will check the land as time permits. The cold snap which we have been under the past couple of weeks is coming to an end and that will make it easier for people to get out and look over the area. In the mean time people still have to feed their cows and those who calve early are starting to get very busy.

Here in Iowa, "feeding the cattle" becomes an 18-20 hour a day pastime when temps get below 10 F or so. It's not just feeding them, it's making sure the cattle get adequate water. I had a friend whose husband raised cattle and I remember those days--we'd use up all his dogs and my dogs, just moving cattle a couple hundred feet for water. Exhausting. And I figured out once that I ate over 5000 calories myself, just to stay warm and not fall over of exhaustion.

Conducting a search means recording what areas have been searched and how that search was conducted (air? ATV? binoculars? walking? HRD dog?). Without those records, the search doesn't really exist.

But just organising a search in such an environment is a full time job for someone with a high degree of organisational skills, familiarity with the terrain, familiarity with the local culture and willingness to keep chasing after little teeny details. Without stepping on anyone's toes and without alienating anyone. It requires the skills of a diplomat and unbelievable levels of charm.

I am really hoping that, for the sake of the Arnold family, someone has the time and skills to do this for them.

 

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

Here in Iowa, "feeding the cattle" becomes an 18-20 hour a day pastime when temps get below 10 F or so. It's not just feeding them, it's making sure the cattle get adequate water. I had a friend whose husband raised cattle and I remember those days--we'd use up all his dogs and my dogs, just moving cattle a couple hundred feet for water. Exhausting. And I figured out once that I ate over 5000 calories myself, just to stay warm and not fall over of exhaustion.

Conducting a search means recording what areas have been searched and how that search was conducted (air? ATV? binoculars? walking? HRD dog?). Without those records, the search doesn't really exist.

But just organising a search in such an environment is a full time job for someone with a high degree of organisational skills, familiarity with the terrain, familiarity with the local culture and willingness to keep chasing after little teeny details. Without stepping on anyone's toes and without alienating anyone. It requires the skills of a diplomat and unbelievable levels of charm.

I am really hoping that, for the sake of the Arnold family, someone has the time and skills to do this for them.

Yes, cows need a lot of water when it gets cold. More than in the summer heat. But it is warming up, back into the 20s and the coming week should be into the 30s. Hopefully the ranchers will start to have some time to get out and check the countryside. There is no snow, so that will help.

 

[4UIhelp]

Here in Iowa, "feeding the cattle" becomes an 18-20 hour a day pastime when temps get below 10 F or so. It's not just feeding them, it's making sure the cattle get adequate water. I had a friend whose husband raised cattle and I remember those days--we'd use up all his dogs and my dogs, just moving cattle a couple hundred feet for water. Exhausting. And I figured out once that I ate over 5000 calories myself, just to stay warm and not fall over of exhaustion.

Conducting a search means recording what areas have been searched and how that search was conducted (air? ATV? binoculars? walking? HRD dog?). Without those records, the search doesn't really exist.

But just organising a search in such an environment is a full time job for someone with a high degree of organisational skills, familiarity with the terrain, familiarity with the local culture and willingness to keep chasing after little teeny details. Without stepping on anyone's toes and without alienating anyone. It requires the skills of a diplomat and unbelievable levels of charm.

I am really hoping that, for the sake of the Arnold family, someone has the time and skills to do this for them.

If the law would release the public I KNOW many who are willing to day and night includeing myself look for her and do just as you say!!!

 

[GrainneDhu]

SBM

We'll I thought that would be a smaller search area than all the counties or even part of those counties. Sigh.

Whenever I look at new cases I always think back to other ones, how LE handled the situations, what the media reported etc. But this region, coupled with the fact that the area they travel is huuuuuuge.

At first I thought that when it starts to warm up the changes in the scenery would expose where she is buried when the snow melted. But that was based on a desert bunnie's limited experience with cold weather.

What people who don't live on the plains don't understand is that the plains want to be... plains. They aren't like forests, where you can see the disturbance in vegetation for years afterwards. They aren't like the deserts, where footprints can last for literally centuries in protected areas.

The plains have a relentless beauty all of their own.

I guess I'm getting very worried that this is no different than when bodies are buried down here in AZ in the middle of nowhere. The more time passes, the harder it becomes to find the victims.

Its just so frustrating.

I think that is the best comparison.

I know many out there don't want to use recovering Sherry's body as a bargaining chip to save suspect Spell's life, but that may be the only option left. OTOH, I think the death penalty in MT may be on it's way out anyway, which leaves not a darn thing left to bargain with. But then how could they be certain the DP will be abolished, so it could go either way if they take it to trial.

I think you have an awesome idea with the mailers, quite cost effective too. I think you should be a LE consultant.

BLUSH!!! Thank you.

My fear is the possibility that one or both suspects are cooperating but have not the faintest idea of where they left her. It might not be a bargaining position at all, it may be simple ignorance.