My view has done a complete 180

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DNA Solves
Thanks, I understand what you are getting at. I would still like to know: Is there any physical evidence linking them or not? It doesn't mean you can't have a strong case, but I'd just like to know. So far I've found nothing.

I am not any kind of expert on this case and haven't read nearly as much as others, so take with a grain of salt... I think there was (weak) fiber evidence linked to two of the accused boys homes, possible blue candle wax present at the crime scene and Damien's home, blood on Damien's necklace which type matched one of the murdered boys but also matched Jason...and I *think* I read somewhere there was a hair (not the ligature hair) that matched Damien and maybe Byers (not by mDNA, but maybe by visual exam? can't remember).

That's all I know of. But there is or has been more advanced testing done of the items from the crime scene that hasn't been released yet. I hope the defense or the state will release it at some point.
 
All three teens confessed to someone. One teen with previous remorseful behavior confessed multiple times even as his attorney begged him not to confess.

Only one, the one who "confessed" multiple times, actually made statements to LE, and he has an IQ of 72 and was in Special Education classes since an early age. Don't bring up the old "once his IQ was tested at 88" stuff. That was the "performance" portion of the test. It's like someone saying, "Yeah, my overall average in all my classes is 72, but once I made an 88 in PE." The other purported "confessions" were to a jailhouse snitch and a group of people at a softball game. The jailhouse statement has been refuted by an employee of the juvenile detention facility where it was said to have happened. The "confession" at the softball game was not reported by anyone directly involved in the conversation but by some tween girls who claimed to have overheard the conversation.

Because there were three victims, there was very likely more than one killer (removes possibility of the angry relative killing all three).

If the angry relative had a way of controlling the three little boys, it is very possible that one person committed these murders. When you consider that the most likely perpetrator of a murder of a child is a parent/relative or friend, it makes even more sense.

It was an impulsive event perpetrated with locally found weapons (fists, stick, stream water and a pocket knife).

This fact doesn't point exclusively to the WMFree. In fact, an angry relative would also be impulsive and likely to use available weapons, etc.

There was a poor attempt to hide the body= impulsive event and no way to dispose of the bodies farther from the crime scene (none of the boys had cars).

If the bodies were moved after the murders, as I suspect is the case, this explanation doesn't hold water, either. If a vehicle wasn't used to transport the bodies, that could be because the perpetrator was being watched too closely to allow him to use a vehicle. Again, the lack of the use of a vehicle doesn't point solely to the WMFree.

One boy experienced bizarre mutilation and the scene had sexual overtones (the boys were found naked)=sadist psychopath and not an angry relative.

That "bizarre mutilation" has since been determined by certified forensic pathologists (which the WM ME was not) to have been the result of postmortem animal predation.

The degloving of the one child’s penis and scrotal area which were never found was similar to Jeffrey Dahmer’s and Ed Geins’s actions=sadistic schizophrenic psychopath and not an angry relative.

Again, this degloving was the result of postmortem animal predation.

The killer took two pairs of the boys’ underwear =psychopath's trophy and not the behavior of an angry relative.

Since said underwear has not been found, and more specifically, was not found at any of the homes of the falsely convicted, this is rather a moot point, I'm afraid. The underwear could have been trophies, and, if it's ever found, maybe we'll know who was collecting the trophies. However, it wasn't the WMFree.

The bite mark near, but not quite on the neck area=psychopathic teenage vampyre crap or schizophrenic cannibalism.

Again, this was later determined not to be a human bite mark, but most likely the result of postmortem animal predation.

One teen documented that he was homicidal (twice).

He wrote the word "homicidal" twice on an admission form. IMO, this is hardly documentation of his homicidal proclivities but more documentation of his penchant to shock people.

All teens had very poor alibis.

The teens were with family and friends. The prosecutors were better at cross examination that the defense attorneys were at redirect. That doesn't mean the alibi witnesses were lying; it just means, as I said, that the prosecutors were better attorneys at the time.

Teens had familiarity with crime scene because Damien used to live close.

This is also true of an angry relative.

Although Jessie was drunk, he knew way too many details to not have been at the scene when it happened.

The two post-conviction statements in which he exhibited a modicum of familiarity of the crime were made after he had heard the State's theory during his trial. IMO, the prosecutors also "coached" him extensively about the details. Of course, they didn't document this coaching. They're unethical, not stupid.

Jason and Damien talked about killing a bum under the underpass just to see how it would feel=homicidal planning.

If this happened, IMO, it is just male teenaged machismo, nothing more. IMO, the person who reported this was just looking for his fifteen minutes.

Jason had his brother hide his ice pick after the murders (he knew he was going to be implicated).

However, they found the ice axe. I don't believe that the WMPD even bothered to test it. Maybe they could see visually that it was not responsible for any of the wounds. IMO, Jason didn't want his mother to know he had the ice axe, hence the attempt to hide it. I know that his mother didn't want him to have knives. So, I doubt that she would have wanted him to have an ice axe.

Jessie gave away his bloody shoes even though he was very poor and shoes would have been valuable to him.

Buddy Lucas gave the police several pairs of tennis shoes that he claimed to have been Jessie's. None of them had blood on them, and none of them were a match for the prints found near the discovery ditch. In fact, Buddy Lucas later admitted that Jessie gave him shoes in November when his own had gotten muddy and wet. Since Jessie was in custody from June 3, 1993, until August, 19, 2011, the shoes were obviously given to Buddy well before the murders.

Jessie had very remorseful behavior after the murders and this occurred before he was arrested

His step mother overheard him crying. That could easily have been because he thought that his girlfriend (now his fiancee) was moving away.

Damien's handwritten letters and psych evaluations show that he was very psychotic and full of anger.

That is your opinion. IMO, these things just show that he suffered from teen angst and/or liked to say things to shock people.

Damien wrote many time that "everyone had to pay." Damien bragged to others that he killed the children.

Again, teen angst and/or his penchant to say shocking things can easily account for these statements.

Although it happened, it still astonishes me that these three innocent men were convicted on "Satanic" panic and such flimsy circumstantial evidence. I'm glad that they're free. I hope exoneration and the conviction of the real murder follow shortly. Christopher, Michael and Stevie deserve true justice.
 
I am not any kind of expert on this case and haven't read nearly as much as others, so take with a grain of salt... I think there was (weak) fiber evidence linked to two of the accused boys homes, possible blue candle wax present at the crime scene and Damien's home, blood on Damien's necklace which type matched one of the murdered boys but also matched Jason...and I *think* I read somewhere there was a hair (not the ligature hair) that matched Damien and maybe Byers (not by mDNA, but maybe by visual exam? can't remember).

That's all I know of. But there is or has been more advanced testing done of the items from the crime scene that hasn't been released yet. I hope the defense or the state will release it at some point.

The hair matches Terry Hobbs not Damien or Byers.
The fiber evidence is ridiculously weak indeed.Fiber that matches Jason's mothers' bathrobe and probably most other West memphis residence's mother's bathrobes if they would have tested them and fibers matching a Walmart Grananimal shirt that could be found in many residences as well if they would have looked anywhere else but in the houses of some kids that they targeted for no other reason than Damien was "weird"
 
I actually agree with Pensfan that the murder has sexual,sadistic undertones and that it was committed by a sadistic psychopath.
Nothing in Damiens history shows anything like that.On the contrary most of his anger was caused by romantic teenage love.He wanted to run away with Deanna and went to a mental hospital instead.On the night of the murder he was busy with teenage love stuff once again.Jealousy and so on.Never any indication of sadism or to use sex as a way to control and punish.On the contrary in all his writings he sees the female as the goddess.
Hobbs on the other hand has a history of sadism and sexual abuse towards his neighbor,his children etc.....and there is physical evidence of him at the crime scene.
 
I am not any kind of expert on this case and haven't read nearly as much as others, so take with a grain of salt... I think there was (weak) fiber evidence linked to two of the accused boys homes, possible blue candle wax present at the crime scene and Damien's home, blood on Damien's necklace which type matched one of the murdered boys but also matched Jason...and I *think* I read somewhere there was a hair (not the ligature hair) that matched Damien and maybe Byers (not by mDNA, but maybe by visual exam? can't remember).

That's all I know of. But there is or has been more advanced testing done of the items from the crime scene that hasn't been released yet. I hope the defense or the state will release it at some point.

There was weak fiber evidence, but it is one of those things that, IIRC, is still being tested for further clarification. The trace evidence expert, Lisa Sakevicius, couldn't match it to any specific garment and could only say that some fibers from the bodies were "microscopically similar" to some from Damien's and Jason's homes. Those same fibers from the bodies could be said to be "microscopically similar" to hundreds if not thousands of garments found at the local Wal-Mart.

The wax has not been linked, even tentatively, to any of the WMFree. IIRC, it hasn't even been proved to be candle wax and could just as easily be crayon residue from some school project. It could have been any number of things, but it could not be definitively linked to Damien or either of the other two.

You're right about the blood. A DQ-Alpha 1 test was done on it and about six alleles in a row were found to be a match to both Jason and one of the victims (Stevie, I think). Since Jason often wore the necklace, even though technically it was Damien's, it's not surprising that some of his blood (possibly from a nick while shaving) would be there. The sample was destroyed by the original testing, so it can't be further tested for DNA, unfortunately.

The hair originally purported to have "characteristics" similar to Damien's has since been tested further, and all three of the WMFree (along with all of the victims) have been excluded as the donor. However, remember that the hair found under Michael's ligature was only one nucleotide different from Terry H. The tree stump hair was likewise closely matched to Terry's friend with whom he spent time on the afternoon of the murders, David J.

In short, there is no physical evidence that unequivocally links any of the WMFree to the discovery ditch or to the crime. Most people who cling to their belief that the WMFree are guilty of these heinous murders tend to cling to Jessie's statements. In the pre-hearing briefs filed in preparation to the December evidentiary hearing (which will no longer happen), the State indicated that the crux of their evidence would be Jessie's statements. So, if Jessie was lying (or really making up a story), then the State's case falls apart. It kind of explains why they were so quick to agree to an Alford Plea, doesn't it?
 
If you couldn’t see what I held in my hands, but I told you it was a furry object with four legs, a tail, and made “meow” noises, you would know it was a cat even without many items of physical evidence. .....

.......just because you SAY it's a furry object that makes "meow" noises doesn't make it a cat.If I just go by your word I will assume it is a cat but I would have to trust that you are telling me the truth.In the case of the West memphis three that's exactly what happened,Jerry Driver convinced LE he was holding a cat (Damien) and they went with it....
 
If you couldn’t see what I held in my hands, but I told you it was a furry object with four legs, a tail, and made “meow” noises, you would know it was a cat even without many items of physical evidence. Here are only a few of the clues that show Damien, Jason, and Jessie killed the little boys:

All three teens confessed to someone. One teen with previous remorseful behavior confessed multiple times even as his attorney begged him not to confess. Because there were three victims, there was very likely more than one killer (removes possibility of the angry relative killing all three). It was an impulsive event perpetrated with locally found weapons (fists, stick, stream water and a pocket knife). There was a poor attempt to hide the body= impulsive event and no way to dispose of the bodies farther from the crime scene (none of the boys had cars). One boy experienced bizarre mutilation and the scene had sexual overtones (the boys were found naked)=sadist psychopath and not an angry relative. The degloving of the one child’s penis and scrotal area which were never found was similar to Jeffrey Dahmer’s and Ed Geins’s actions=sadistic schizophrenic psychopath and not an angry relative. The killer took two pairs of the boys’ underwear =psychopath's trophy and not the behavior of an angry relative. The bite mark near, but not quite on the neck area=psychopathic teenage vampyre crap or schizophrenic cannibalism. One teen documented that he was homicidal (twice). All teens had very poor alibis. Teens had familiarity with crime scene because Damien used to live close. Although Jessie was drunk, he knew way too many details to not have been at the scene when it happened. Jason and Damien talked about killing a bum under the underpass just to see how it would feel=homicidal planning. Jason had his brother hide his ice pick after the murders (he knew he was going to be implicated). Jessie gave away his bloody shoes even though he was very poor and shoes would have been valuable to him. Jessie had very remorseful behavior after the murders and this occurred before he was arrested. Damien's handwritten letters and psych evaluations show that he was very psychotic and full of anger. Damien wrote many time that "everyone had to pay." Damien bragged to others that he killed the children.....................

Thank you very much for this. This is the very first time I've ever seen a person who believes in their guilt detail out WHY they believe they are guilty. I'm not certain I agree with you, but I do thank you for spelling out your reasons for guilt.
 
I'm not certain I agree with you, but I do thank you for spelling out your reasons for guilt.

I am the same way ..I like to hear other's opinions whether they mirror my own or not .
 
Thanks Compassionate Reader. That's pretty interesting about the teeth. I'm pretty bad with names. Is Terry Hobbs one of the step fathers too? Do some people think he did it?

I went on some site yesterday that I can't remember, but it was basically a site that thought the 3 were guilty. It said in the intro that you've probably seen Paradise Lost and think they're innocent. haha. That is me basically. I read some of the site, but the basic premise was pretty weak. It read like, "you may think this and this, but did you know they are guilty"?

I'm curious for those that think they did it, is there any actual physical evidence that people think connect them to the crime? The movies don't do a good job of explaining why the police thought they did at first, or how they were first arrested. It seems like there was no physical evidence.


Sorry. I just realized that I didn't address your query about Terry Hobbs. Yes, he is one of the step fathers. In fact, he is the only step father. Todd Moore is Michael Moore's biological father and John Mark Byers adopted Christopher, which is why Christopher carried the Byers name. And yes, many people (including me) believe that it is highly probable that Terry Hobbs is the murderer.

As to why the police thought that the WMFree were guilty, I'd say that a lot of the reason was that Jerry Driver, a juvenile officer in the WMPD at the time, told them something along the lines of it looks like Damien Echols finally did it! Driver and his assistant, Steve Jones, were looking for evidence of Satanic cult activity in the area and they zeroed in on Damien. Then, the WMPD simply got "tunnel vision" and botched the investigation and IMO railroaded these three teens.
 
Ok so I've really become interested in this case but have to admit I've only seen Paradise Lost and the 48 hours that played recently. So obviously I think the 3 are innocent but people online seem to have really strong opinions that they are guilty.

Honestly, I thought that first Paradise Lost was pretty neutral. If I didn't know anything about the case I'm not so sure I would have come away thinking the 3 were innocent. I'm sure reasonable minds can disagree on that.

I had a question though about the stepdad without the teeth. Near the end of the movie, the documentary says that records show that he was lying about his explanation for getting rid of his teeth. I was wondering if there was any follow up for that. The second movie really did try to make it seem like that step dad was the guy who did it, but now it seems that a lot of people don't think he did...... This is a very confusing case!

It's good to see your interest in this case, let me make a few suggestions to you if you want to grasp a wider scope of this case then that you will find on the opinion boards. Start with Callahan's website, follow that with Paradise Lost 2 if you haven't seen that since you only reference the 1st movie, read Devil's Knot and for a competing view check out Blood of Innocents as well as jivepuppi.com... after that you'd be a bit better prepared to wade into opinion boards which you will find are full of half truths and outright lies on both sides... but also some valuable information to draw your own conclusions.
 
Also SunD a fair warning about the opinion boards... Most of the lesser boards are dying off since the 3 have been released and there really are two main boards right now, for the supporters there is Blackboard (commonly called the Stainer board) and for the nons there is down on the farm (or Hoax board), be careful on those... If you venture there questioning the prevailing theories there be prepared to be harshly criticized and banned very quickly. Also be wary of many of the posters (not all) as some have really taken this case and injected themselves into it and let it become way to much a part of their lives... to the point of taking things into the real world. Why I commonly just come here and just lurk on those boards from time to time for updates. This is the only place I've seen where supporters and nons have a civil debate about things... anyways sorry to throw all that at ya but figured you should have a fair warning.
 
We're usually pretty civil on the Blackboard. Right now there's a non posting there with his/her theories. No one has resorted to bathroom invective (like they frequently do on the Hoax) and we're actually having a civil discussion. But, the Blackboard is a supporter board and the Hoax is a non-supporter board. That will give you a well-balanced view for sure!
 
It's good to check out both sides and then read the trial transcripts ..or vice/versa LOL
 
It's good to check out both sides and then read the trial transcripts ..or vice/versa LOL

I agree wholeheartedly. Some people here may think that I want to force people into my way of thinking. That is simply not true. I am very passionate about this case, and I believe with every fiber of my being, based on my own reading/research into the case, that Damien, Jason and Jessie are totally innocent of these horrible murders. I am almost as sure, mainly based on the lack of any other remotely feasible explanation, that TH is the murderer.

I will continue to post my opinions and insight into this case. However, I want anyone investigating to come to their own conclusion, based on their own research, etc. Relying on "borrowed light" is not a good way to make a decision on anything! Read on.
 
I actually came in to this case after the hype with the celebs. I thought they were innocent and it was such a travesty. Now that i have read the transcripts and documents and such , I changed my mind. I really didn't expect that.
 
I actually came in to this case after the hype with the celebs. I thought they were innocent and it was such a travesty. Now that i have read the transcripts and documents and such , I changed my mind. I really didn't expect that.

Same the other way around. I never heard of the wm3 until people on another message board started discussing it from a non perspective, and calling supporters "ghouls" and stuff. At first, I thought it must be a slam dunk for guilt if all three had confessed. When I went and googled to double check some of their claims I found the Callahan's site. Like yourself, I then read the facts of the case for myself, and I came to the opposite conclusion to the one you came to back when you read the trial transcripts, etc.
 
With teenagers, things are not always black and white. He can write that he is homicidal (because he wants to shock and/or frighten) but that does not mean that he is homicidal. It's not an outright lie; it's a defense mechanism. Surely in all of your psychological training you've heard of defense mechanisms, right?

So many excuses...you think that social workers had him committed not because of mental issues, but because a social worker took pity on this poor boy in need of 'three hots and a cot' (yeah, that happens all the time...no, I do not believe that social workers commit fraud in order to have sane people committed to mental hospitals just because they want them to have shelter, there are actual homeless shelters for stuff like that) He said he murdered actual murder victims, but in your mind it was just for shock value...and that is normal in your world? Claiming to be homicidal on SS paperwork, oh that was just to shock and frighten (Who? Social Security employees? It is a serious crime to falsify SS applications, and if he lied on them like you seem to think he did, he should serve prison time for that...)

None of that is normal behavior no matter how many times you say it is. Does it prove that he is a murderer? No, that alone does not prove he is a murderer. It's just a small part of the totality of the evidence.


Seems like you will dismiss anything that Damian could do or say with flimsy excuses, theories and conjecture. Yet the victim's parents should look at the 'new information' that *you* think is important and accept it for what *you* think it means.
 
Seems like you will dismiss anything that Damian could do or say with flimsy excuses, theories and conjecture. Yet the victim's parents should look at the 'new information' that *you* think is important and accept it for what *you* think it means.
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Some of the parents already have looked at the new evidence. All of them were invited to, because as a courtesy, the defense team wanted them to have an opportunity to hear it in private, rather than on the evening news.

Some of them declined the invitation, some of them accepted. If I was ever unfortunate enough to be in those parents shoes, I would hope that I'd be in the camp who was able to look at the new evidence.

I couldn't be sure I would be though, and I'm not going to judge those parents who weren't able to.
 
Some of the parents already have looked at the new evidence. All of them were invited to, because as a courtesy, the defense team wanted them to have an opportunity to hear it in private, rather than on the evening news.

Some of them declined the invitation, some of them accepted. If I was ever unfortunate enough to be in those parents shoes, I would hope that I'd be in the camp who was able to look at the new evidence.

I couldn't be sure I would be though, and I'm not going to judge those parents who weren't able to.

I will ask again, what new evidence? I don't believe that there have even been credible claims made (by the defense team or defendants) of compelling and secret new evidence. I think if there was some big piece of evidence, it would have already been on the evening news. No reason to keep it secret at this point.

Also, with the claims made about the defense team getting experts to lie and exaggerate Damian's mental health problems to help him, how can findings by any defense employees be taken as total truth anyway?
 
If you couldn’t see what I held in my hands, but I told you it was a furry object with four legs, a tail, and made “meow” noises, you would know it was a cat even without many items of physical evidence.

.......just because you SAY it's a furry object that makes "meow" noises doesn't make it a cat.If I just go by your word I will assume it is a cat but I would have to trust that you are telling me the truth.In the case of the West memphis three that's exactly what happened.

This would only work, Pensfan, if the 'judge' managed to convince us that you were an 'expert'. And even then it would have to be assumed that the educational achievements of the jurors were such that they were easily duped!

Being a long time 'cat lover' even I would not immediateloy assume you were talking about the ubiquitous domesticated feline! Newly born lion and tiger cubs could be 'covered' by your desciption and then there are all the many other cat variants on the planet! Panthers, leopards, pumas, cheetahs . . . etcetera!

Trouble in this case were the assumptions made that anything the 'authorities' said was gospel.

Driver started it and then Griffis added fuel to the fire by assuming your cat was that witches familiar in the form of a black domestic cat!

The saddest aspect of the case is that at the end of the twentieth century the community was such that they could 'buy in' to the 'satanic' argument.

Emotion has always trumped reasoned logic, in this case, in the minds of the majority of those closely involved back in 93 and 94. It is much easier for many to just stay hunkered down in their comfort zone rather than having to face up to the fact that just maybe the 'authorities' pulled a fast one. Loss of faith in the status quo means opening the door to a great many discomforting questions, which makes many turn aside from wanting answers that may just throw that faith in to doubt. This is both human and understandable but regretable. It is why realising a 'perfect world' which is caring and civilised is such a long time coming even though we think we are all 'civilised'!

Hell, one could even argue that a baby rabbit might sqeak in a feline way enough to convince someone that you were holding a rabbit! All that is needed now is the magician's top hat!
 

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