Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #6

[Mysterylover]

Guys, Has anyone read what happened to the cloths the couple was wearing when they were shot?
Wouldn't it be great if their cloths were kept and DNA from the shooter could be gotten from/off their cloths now?

 

[andrea]

Hi, I'm new here and seriously fascinated by this sad story.

One thing I noticed is that not much thought has been given to the man's t-shirt. (I couldn't locate threads #1 and #2 though, maybe it has been discussed before?)

My father was a big fan of all kinds of races in the seventies, and I remember that fan clothing was not sold at every event, only the really big ones. Small to medium events sometimes used shirts like that for drivers and team members, to make them easily recognizable in a crowd. Maybe it would be possible to find a driver or organisator of these races and ask them if this kind of t-shirt was sold or only given to the people involved?

I remember the people at the races, and some things about the unknown man are similar. The drivers saw themselves as a mixture between hero and filmstar, so the jewelry and the manicured nails would fit.

This is from the middle of europe, though - it may have been different in the USA.

The need for dental work and the scars on his back could be from some accident.
These people also used to travel a lot between racing seasons.

 

[andrea]

Some more thoughts, as I cannot stop thinking about this...

I found the other threads (must have been blind before) and saw some info about the shirt has been mentioned, but no followups on it. So, still interesting.

I'm not so sure about the Canada connection. It comes from one person, months after the murders happened. He could have had reason to lie, he could have remembered somebody else, and even if he was correct, Jock/Jacques could have lied. (Of course, that uncertainty is particularly frustrating, as it is the only real clue about this person.)

Something about him sounds European, I think. The Lady, not so much.

Unfortunately, there is no combined European database for missing persons on the net. When I first found NAMUS some months ago, I asked a former german police officer why there is nothing like it over here. He said in his active days (which would be the 70ies and 80ies, he moved on to other duties later), adult persons were only registered missing by police if they had "serious reason to believe there could be a crime". So, if someone just walked out of his home never to return, or did not come back from a holiday, there probably wouldn't even be a file on this person. (This could be different in other countries.)

So, the couple could well be missed, but their relatives / friends turned down by police, and didn't know where to start. Or searched on their own but lost hope and faith at some point in the past.

I've searched for forums like this one in the languages I know (german, french, swedish) but didn't find much. Only cases that are well known at least in the area where they happened. Most archives don't go back further than the year 2000.

But even if someone was on file as missing back in the 70ies, it wouldn't be easy to find out about that. Most local law enforcement websites don't have data from pre-internet days available, and many places do not have any records online at all.

This post is getting way too long without actual substance, sorry about that. Thoughts are roaming.

About the car: To me it seems most probable that the car (van) that was heard that night and left the tire prints belonged to the couple. There is this mechanic witness who thinks has seen him, plus nothing about them says "hitchhikers". And it would solve the riddle about the missing luggage, if the suitcase was in the van and stayed there. I think the killer just drove off with the car and disposed of it later. Or it may even be still around.

This is again a piece from my personal memory - back in the days, the idea was very popular to fly to the states (east coast), buy a car, do a slow coast to coast drive with sightseeing along the way and then sell the car at the west coast before flying home. I don't know how many people actually did this, but even if it was only 1% of the people talking about it, that would be enough for a thriving business specializing in selling cars to visitors. Does anyone know of businesses like this?

And a question - has anybody ever done an overview map of the places they were known to be and the places they could have been? Murder Site, camp ground, the place where the mechanic believes to have seen them - plus possible race tracks, the truck stops from the matches, the marina that was talked about? Not sure if it would help, but it might.

OK, I'll shut up now.

 

[Annette73]

Wow, this story is really sad. When I first saw the sketches and photos, I immediately thought they look either Argentinian or Spanish. I am from Puerto Rico but know lots of Argetinians, there is a certain look in this Doe couple that just screams Argentina, especially in the guy. Even though the unshaved legs (and underarms?) is popular in Spain. So much time has gone by, this one seems difficult to solve. I read that there was DNA tests done, is there a story on the outcome of these tests? Some DNA testing can even say what country or continent where you're from (or your ancestors in the case of immigrants).

 

[stormsailor]

i grew up about 45 miles north of the crime-scene. the people in the small town i lived in were upset, people were afraid and tightened up on their children, locked their doors. i was just starting my senior year in highschool, and reading of this case and the memories take me back, almost like a time capsule.

l. henry was discovered with the murder weapon, he was given the weapon by his relative 5 years earlier, then had the weapon in his posession 3 months later.

i've read where he couldn't have committed the murders because his wife was in union memorial hospital in monroe nc and he was verified to be there. i do know that no one was allowed in the rooms there after 9 pm and the waiting room for the e,r. family surgery etc. was the same small room.

i know that le drove the route and said there was not enough time, but i know shortcuts in that area that could have shaved 20 minutes off the trip each way.

as to the racing connection, darlington racetrack has its biggest race at that time on labor day, the southern 500. the other race was in april and was the rebel 400. i think the racetrack angle may not work. gt racing, its owners, drivers, and even fans were diametrical opposites.

i know that l e in the small town where i lived were never questioned about this case, received no bulletins and were asked no questions. that is curious considering l. henry route on main highways would have led right through the town, and it was a well known speed trap.

the key is l. henry.

 

[reasypeasy]

I wish we had better pictures of a couple of teenage sweethearts who went missing in Australia in 1968, Maureen Joyce Braddy and Allan George Whyte. The timing would be a bit of a stretch for them to be these two, and the police decided recently they were probably murdered... but they are just similar enough that I wish I had better pictures to compare.

Allan
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/4297dmvic.html
Maureen
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2939dfvic.html

media link about the inquest into their disappearance
http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au...court-announces-coronial-inquest/1854483.aspx

 

[andrea]

I can see some resemblance in the woman, but not the man - the narrow lower half of the face looks completely different to me. Whyte's eyes are also closer together. I think that's more difference than what 8 years could make... MOO, of course.

 

[webrocket]

Andrea - yes it is frustrating at the lack of a European database for missing persons. while there might be an attitude that adults are free to do as they like, you'd think someone would have missed them.

I still think they were from France (or a colony or former colony of France) as opposed to being French Canadians. the unshaved legs on a woman would have been highly unusual anywhere in the western hemisphere back then (and even today) and the French rise to the top of my list of nationalities where that would have been far more common.

I did think of one thing that might explain the lack of interest from family. To my knowledge, and it still might be the law in France, is that a child cannot be disinherited. so it is possible that Jacques (or whatever his real name was) had a falling out with the family and that he was paid off in lieu of an inheritance. having said that, I do not think they were traveling around the US with a suitcase full of cash. so they had to have been accessing funds somehow.

ATM machines did not exist back then so unless he was getting money via Western Union, I don't know what international banks would have existed then where he could go in and take money from a French bank account and get US dollars here.

if that theory is correct, the family might not have cared that he was gone. that does not address her of course, but the same idea may apply. they disapproved of her decisions and they went on a free-spirited venture in the US.

 

[bcadle]

I agree with webrocket. My wife is from France and her brother took a rambling trip across the U.S. as a young man in the 80's. Seems to be the thing to do back then for a young European man with a little jingle in his pocket. Also the couple appear to have very French facial features.

 

[reasypeasy]

I do not think they were traveling around the US with a suitcase full of cash. so they had to have been accessing funds somehow.

ATM machines did not exist back then so unless he was getting money via Western Union, I don't know what international banks would have existed then where he could go in and take money from a French bank account and get US dollars here.

Traveler's cheques, maybe? You don't hear about those so much any more, but they were common enough before electronic banking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveler's_cheque

 

[carbuff]

Yes, long rambling live-off-the-land road trips were common for young people of all nationalities. Traveler's checks were certainly very common at the time. Credit cards were becoming fairly widespread. And people did carry more cash than is common now. (Possibly robbery was the motive?)

The Summer Olympics were held in Montreal at the end of July, 1976. Maybe they had come over for the Olympics and stayed after to see some of North America while they were here?

 

[nerosleuth]

It is my understanding that the murder victims skin were described as white with olive undertones.

If they were from North America, it could be possible that the victims could be of Melungeon descent from the Southeastern United States.

Those of Melungeon descent have been described as generally European American in appearance, often, though not always, with dark hair and eyes, and a swarthy or olive complexion.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melungeon

 

[andrea]

I find the money angle very interesting. Travellers cheques sound plausible, they were the most used way of taking money international before credit cards/ATMs came to wider attention. Could be helpful to know what happened if a number of cheques would not be cashed in - IIRC, you used to pay the amount to the bank in advance, so maybe there could be records of "leftovers"?

if that theory is correct, the family might not have cared that he was gone. that does not address her of course, but the same idea may apply. they disapproved of her decisions and they went on a free-spirited venture in the US.

This may well be true, but it is a really sad thing to think about. After all that time, it seems almost impossible to find out their identities, but I still feel the need to try.

 

[elliottness]

Hello, everyone! It has been awhile since I have posted here, but I still am keeping tabs on this case. I recently contacted a psychic who has assisted the police in the past in cold case investigations. I am giving her information about this case to see if she can possibly find anything about it. Last night I spoke with her about it, and without me even saying a word she knew that the couple was from out of town. She says that she is very good with pictures, so I am sending her information with the photographs of the two murder victims. At this point, I think we should try anything. I'll keep you posted on what I find out.

 

[PaulR]

With the discussion about whether "Jacques" was French or French-Canadian - have we considered that perhaps he was French-Algerian?

Algeria was still a "colony" of France until 1962, and many French-Algerians moved back to France. This person could have fallen through the cracks so to speak - they may have lost touch with their childhood friends on moving back to France, and may have lost family and friends that would have reported them missing.

 

[carbuff]

With the discussion about whether "Jacques" was French or French-Canadian - have we considered that perhaps he was French-Algerian?

Algeria was still a "colony" of France until 1962, and many French-Algerians moved back to France. This person could have fallen through the cracks so to speak - they may have lost touch with their childhood friends on moving back to France, and may have lost family and friends that would have reported them missing.

Good thought.

There is still a sizeable French-Canadian population in Maine and New Hampshire, too.

 

[KLCD620]

My geneology started with French-Canadian from 1600's to current as it spread out throughout New England. I'm from MA and my Dad comes from RI. I have no idea why nobody reports them missing.

 

[Reannan]

OK, call me crazy, but I am throwing a bit of international espionage into this case. Has the case of Yves Domergue (born 8/8/1954 in Paris, France – emigrated to Argentina in 1959 with 8 brothers and parents), and his Mexican girlfriend, Christina Cialeieta been discussed? They were apparently part of some left-wing militant group called the Revolutionary Workers Party in Argentina. There was some sort of junta in 1976, and several people “went missing”, including these two. The stories are conflicting as to when they actually went missing. Two “brutalized bodies” were found in September 1976 in Argentina, allegedly killed by the Argentine military dictatorship. They were not identified until JULY 2010 by a group of high school “sleuthers” from Argentina. Read here:

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/ce...tudents-crack-three-decade-old-murder-mystery

An amazing irony between the Argentina case and the Mystery Couple case is that this article states that “….Between all the participants, part of the story could be reconstructed: it is presumed that on September 24, 1976, Yves and Cristina were shot and thrown on the side of the provincial road….”

http://www.yvesdomergue.com/en/index.html

[FONT=&quot]Here is a comparison of their pictures with our Mystery Couple pictures:


[/FONT]

 

[webrocket]

With the discussion about whether "Jacques" was French or French-Canadian - have we considered that perhaps he was French-Algerian?

Algeria was still a "colony" of France until 1962, and many French-Algerians moved back to France. This person could have fallen through the cracks so to speak - they may have lost touch with their childhood friends on moving back to France, and may have lost family and friends that would have reported them missing.

there are several threads about this couple and the commentary may overlap. when I first saw this topic, I posted under the thread with the pictures. I did think about the former colonies and this was what I said then:

I never heard of this couple before. Having looked at the pictures, the comments and the links, I have a slightly different take of this couple.

I believe they were foreigners. Their resemblance to some of the Argentines is interesting in that most people in Argentina are an ethnic mix of Spanish and Italian blood. Argentine women, especialy of the upper classes, are very beauty conscious. I do not believe the couple is from Argentina, however, for two reasons. One, if they had just fled from a brutal military regime in their home country, I doubt that they would be driving or hitchhiking around the United States. Two, while Argentine customs may have changed over the years I cannot imagine an Argentine woman not shaving her legs.

I do not believe they are Italian nationals either. If the initials on the watch are in fact the man's, the letter J is not customarily used in the Italian language. John is Gianni. Joseph is Giuseppe. The month of June is Giungno.

The olive colored complexion certainly implies the Mediterranean area which would exclude their being Northern, Central or Eastern Europeans. I doubt based on their complexions that they were French Canadians.

This, in my book, leaves us with Spaniards, Portuguese or Mediterreanan French. I do not know what the customs of women were back then, but I suspect French women were the group least likely of the three to have shaved their legs back then. (the man was clean shaven so it is not that they did not have any razors at their disposal). The French ancestry would include former colonialists in North Africa.

So the question still remains how did this couple (probably French) of comfortable background get to the US, meander about and meet a violent death without anyone back home worrying about them?

 

[carbuff]

there are several threads about this couple and the commentary may overlap. when I first saw this topic, I posted under the thread with the pictures. I did think about the former colonies and this was what I said then:

I never heard of this couple before. Having looked at the pictures, the comments and the links, I have a slightly different take of this couple.

I believe they were foreigners. Their resemblance to some of the Argentines is interesting in that most people in Argentina are an ethnic mix of Spanish and Italian blood. Argentine women, especialy of the upper classes, are very beauty conscious. I do not believe the couple is from Argentina, however, for two reasons. One, if they had just fled from a brutal military regime in their home country, I doubt that they would be driving or hitchhiking around the United States. Two, while Argentine customs may have changed over the years I cannot imagine an Argentine woman not shaving her legs.

I do not believe they are Italian nationals either. If the initials on the watch are in fact the man's, the letter J is not customarily used in the Italian language. John is Gianni. Joseph is Giuseppe. The month of June is Giungno.

The olive colored complexion certainly implies the Mediterranean area which would exclude their being Northern, Central or Eastern Europeans. I doubt based on their complexions that they were French Canadians.

This, in my book, leaves us with Spaniards, Portuguese or Mediterreanan French. I do not know what the customs of women were back then, but I suspect French women were the group least likely of the three to have shaved their legs back then. (the man was clean shaven so it is not that they did not have any razors at their disposal). The French ancestry would include former colonialists in North Africa.

So the question still remains how did this couple (probably French) of comfortable background get to the US, meander about and meet a violent death without anyone back home worrying about them?

By what logic do you eliminate French Canadians and not French colonials?????????